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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 02:36

Tank? I have a metal anthology which has a Tank song on it... I think I'll dig that up. Cool

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 04:19
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I would dispute Venom as being the prototype for thrash - they basically introduced the concept of Black Metal, which was essentially the darker side of Sabbath, Priest and so on, but did not actually play thrash - at least, not on their first 3 albums.


That's why I call them the prototype... they don't really sound like thrash, but all the first thrash bands were very inspired by them. And like I said, why can't they be both black metal, heavy metal and proto-thrash?
 
 
They can be, if you like, but I always see a prototype as something that was developed before the event, and there are proto-thrash pieces that predate Venom. I don't think it's true that all the first thrash bands were inspired by them - although it's beyond question that some were.
 
The categorisation doesn't matter at all - of course Venom were a heavy metal band, they were part of the NENWoBHM. They also called their first album "Black Metal", so if anyone can claim to have played it, then Venom are a leading light... er... dark?
 
Certainly, Venom developed a new sound and inspired more bands than many of their peers.
 
Earlier proto-thrash also exists - Deep Purple's "Highway Star", for example, but the two tracks mentioned above use the alternate picking rhythm style in a manner much more closely aligned to the thrash "movement".
 
The only point I was making was that "Exciter" (and Ozzy's "I Don't Know") were significantly before Venom, so I think that Venom were a bit late to be considered proto-thrash. However, I get your point with the title track of "Black Metal"
 
I'm listening to it now - and it's amazing just how much of the "thrash" sounds like Diamond Head played on more distorted guitars... Wink It's the drums that really let it down - with the exception of the title track and "Heaven's on Fire", the back beat that "makes" thrash is noticeably absent in favour of two-to-the-floor, and "Black Metal" features a standard Motorhead beat.
 
Is it me, or does "Buried Alive" sound exactly like Nirvana?
 
I'd forgotten just how progressive this album is in every aspect... Evil%20Smile

Quote
Quote BUT they still created music of worth from sheer bloody-minded attitude - another punk basic that even the Sex Pistols didn't manage despite it being core to their values.


Exactly, that's what I meant and that's the big lesson to learn from punk: Good music doesn't need to be complex or well-played and it doesn't need a shiny polished production, it just needs attitude and energy.
Smile
 
You don't need to tell me, bro!

Quote
Quote Death Metal of course, originates in the title of the Possessed song, but the sound and style was only fully realised by Mr Schuldiner (who initially, unfortunately, failed to notice the free-form time signatures of the riffs that Possessed used in that song).


I remember reading about a magazine called Death Metal which Tom G. Warrior had something to do with when he was in Hellhammer meaning that it predates Possessed getting their album out.
 
Hmm - everyone remembers it differently - I've read a few articles on that, but until I actually hear the evidence, I have to stick with what I've heard.
 
All I remember about Hellhammer is that they sounded awful. Think I need to revisit them, as Celtic Frost were awesome.
Having revisted "Seven Churches" recently, I realise that the track "Death Metal" does not, in fact, have an odd time signature. I must have been thinking of "Excorcist" or one of the other warped time tracks.
 
 
/clipped the stuff on modern metal - let's keep this thread on thrash, and modern metal can have another thread, if it likes. Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 10:39
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Earlier proto-thrash also exists - Deep Purple's "Highway Star", for example, but the two tracks mentioned above use the alternate picking rhythm style in a manner much more closely aligned to the thrash "movement".
 
The only point I was making was that "Exciter" (and Ozzy's "I Don't Know") were significantly before Venom, so I think that Venom were a bit late to be considered proto-thrash. However, I get your point with the title track of "Black Metal"
 
I'm listening to it now - and it's amazing just how much of the "thrash" sounds like Diamond Head played on more distorted guitars... Wink It's the drums that really let it down - with the exception of the title track and "Heaven's on Fire", the back beat that "makes" thrash is noticeably absent in favour of two-to-the-floor, and "Black Metal" features a standard Motorhead beat.


I stand corrected. I just get more of a typical thrash... vibe, attitude, atmosphere, whatever you call it, when I listen to Venom than from 1970s proto-thrash like Highway Star or Exciter. Maybe it's the rawness that does the trick?
 
Quote Is it me, or does "Buried Alive" sound exactly like Nirvana?


I think it's just you. Wink

Quote All I remember about Hellhammer is that they sounded awful. Think I need to revisit them, as Celtic Frost were awesome.


Different strokes for different folks, I guess... my favourite Celtic Frost records are the early ones that basically sound like a more epic version of Hellhammer but Into the Pandemonium just bores me. I think of that album as either a bad practical joke or a textbook example of how not to go experimental.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 10:57
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Earlier proto-thrash also exists - Deep Purple's "Highway Star", for example, but the two tracks mentioned above use the alternate picking rhythm style in a manner much more closely aligned to the thrash "movement".


I don't think that those riffs are very close to thrash. They don't need to be utterly complex, but there should be a decent "level" of syncopation of 16th notes / dotted 8ths. I think a good example would be Slayer's Skeletons of Society ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:28

^I've never associated syncopation with thrash as an essential element, except between the drums and synchronised guitars - far less dotted rhythms. For example, "Whiplash" is a perfect example of "raw" thrash, and "Highway Star" is one of the earliest examples I can think of that uses alternate picking for a "chugging" riff that stays on a single note for a significant proportion - particularly in the solos.

It's only the interesting bits of thrash that do the clever syncopated stuff, surely?

Or did you mean something else?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 16:04
^ no, that's exactly what I mean. I'm sure there are many ways to identify thrash ... for many people it can simply be the speed and brutality of drums, bass and guitar (they're "thrashing" their instruments).

For me it was always the elaborate riffing, with heavy syncopation in respect to the drum patterns and with atonal (non-diatonic) harmonies. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 02:40
I usede to listen to a lot of it, but at the moment I seem to be on a different track.
One exception though is 'Mekong Delta'. This is thrash with just that little bit 'extra' that gets me hooked even if I seem to have mellowed slightly in my musical tastes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 02:53
Well, as far as I see it, thrash is thrash - the whole alternate picking to get more speed out of riffs combined with the drum back beat (which "Exciter" and "I Don't Know" do not have, but "Black Metal" comes very close to) is what makes it thrash as opposed to speed metal.
 
The variations in rhythm came surprisingly quickly - that was the thing that astonished me when it all "blew up" back in '83, that it was all so very different and that bands were acquiring individual styles that were more radical than those developed by most NWoBHM bands - but those more advanced techniques are not the basis to thrash, just what made the better bands stand out from the simple bands.
 
The trouble is that "thrash" quickly became a dirty word, associated with some kind of mindlessness in playing - and bands tried to get the point across that what they did was more than "thra**". 
 
In my opinion, they shouldn''t have! Thrash was a new technique in itself, that completely revolutionised metal and what could be done with it - and the biggest revolutionaries of this new technique-based style were the bands themselves, especially those who cultivated original styles.
 
It's all progressive. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 03:16
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

The trouble is that "thrash" quickly became a dirty word, associated with some kind of mindlessness in playing - and bands tried to get the point across that what they did was more than "thra**". 
 
Hell, that's happened to metal in general... I blame either This Is Spinal Tap or grunge, those two things have meant most people today view metal as unintentionally amusing kitsch rather than a legitimately subversive artform. Dead
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 04:34
^It's not Spinal Tap's fault - if anything, Tap have helped me appreciate metal more for what it is - especially the tongue-in-cheek elements. And I cut my teeth on "On Parole". Wink 
 
Metal has always had a bad press - I remember reading a review of "Highway to Hell" in a fairly major UK Pop magazine in the late 1970s, which ripped it to shreds, awarding the album 3 stars (out of 10 - one of the lowest I'd ever seen in that particular publication) denouncing AC/DC as "Headbanging horrors", and the music as a cross between "a chainsaw and a piledriver".
 
I immediately sought it out as a result, and never read such shallow pop journalism again if I could help it. I could not believe how right/wrong they were - wrong to award it 3 stars, but right in the "Headbanging Horrors" stuff. I was hooked on AC/DC from that moment! Cool


Edited by Certif1ed - May 08 2008 at 04:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 04:48
^ I'd be glad if you could rate and tag some of your favorite Thrash albums at RF ... give Ride the Lightning some company! Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:39
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Metal has always had a bad press - I remember reading a review of "Highway to Hell" in a fairly major UK Pop magazine in the late 1970s, which ripped it to shreds, awarding the album 3 stars (out of 10 - one of the lowest I'd ever seen in that particular publication) denouncing AC/DC as "Headbanging horrors", and the music as a cross between "a chainsaw and a piledriver".
 
Yeah, but notice that in that case the reviewer's choice of words make it clear that he's terrified of this music - and remember, fear implies respect.
 
Today? Not only is rap causing most of the moral panics metal used to, but a lot of recent trendy "retro-metal" bands have a somewhat parodic vibe (look at the cover of the latest Municipal Waste album, or for that matter its song titles, if you want an example) that makes it look like they don't really respect the genre and its culture. Don't forget how SomethingAwful (and others) routinely dismiss metal as nothing but leftover feedback noise from adolescent testosterone poisoning. It's like mainstream culture has gone from shunning metal because it says something they don't want to hear to shunning metal because they refuse to even understand it.
 
All this becomes even more insulting to any self-respecting metal fan when you remember that - in Denmark at least - conservatives are still as scared by punk as they were back in the eighties. Angry
 
Quote I immediately sought it out as a result, and never read such shallow pop journalism again if I could help it.
 
Indeed. The worst music reviewers are those who are paid to do it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 05:33
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

<snip> ...penned by the legendary Marty Friedman.
 
He used to host a late-night TV show on a national channel in Japan about guitar playing, interviewing musicians, air-guitar competitions etc. Comes across as a real decent chap. Speaks perfect Japanese and apparently lives 5 minutes down the road from me in Shinjuku!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 05:59
Originally posted by Yukorin Yukorin wrote:

Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

<snip> ...penned by the legendary Marty Friedman.
 
He used to host a late-night TV show on a national channel in Japan about guitar playing, interviewing musicians, air-guitar competitions etc. Comes across as a real decent chap. Speaks perfect Japanese and apparently lives 5 minutes down the road from me in Shinjuku!
 
I've seen it on youtube, Young Guitar!Big%20smile
I'm a big fan of both Marty Friedman and Paul Gilbert, so I've seen a few of the Young Guitar stuff on youtube, absolutely madness.
He does speak great Japanese, and Paul Gilbert is very fluent in Japanese as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 06:12
 
Not sure who Paul Gilbert is so will check it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 06:19
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Hey Guys, I said give Tank a listen - Filth Hounds of Hades. Please, the world needs more Motorhead clones. 
 
Tank are absolutely abysmal. Saw them live supporting Motorhead (maybe on the Iron Fist tour) and was given the LP. Then one of my metal loving cousins notices the LP and gives me a Tank picture-disc single for my birthday. They also top my 'most embarrassing performance on TV' chart. Forgot the show. Early 80s NWOBHM cash-in show on ITV. Remember two fascinating features on Judas Priest and Saxon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 08:39
Originally posted by MisterProg2112 MisterProg2112 wrote:

I'm not huge on thrash but I do listen to Testament, Megadeth, Pantera, and Slayer every once in a while. Also, a really impressive new thrash band is Trivium IMO. Some pretty good guitarwork.

I'm sorry, but Trivium are NOT thrash. They're actually pretty bad.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 11:44
Originally posted by Grimfurg Grimfurg wrote:

Originally posted by MisterProg2112 MisterProg2112 wrote:

I'm not huge on thrash but I do listen to Testament, Megadeth, Pantera, and Slayer every once in a while. Also, a really impressive new thrash band is Trivium IMO. Some pretty good guitarwork.

I'm sorry, but Trivium are NOT thrash. They're actually pretty bad.


Their early albums are goofy metalcore, yeah, but with The Crusade they went thrash.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 12:10
Originally posted by Grimfurg Grimfurg wrote:

Originally posted by MisterProg2112 MisterProg2112 wrote:

I'm not huge on thrash but I do listen to Testament, Megadeth, Pantera, and Slayer every once in a while. Also, a really impressive new thrash band is Trivium IMO. Some pretty good guitarwork.

I'm sorry, but Trivium are NOT thrash. They're actually pretty bad.
 
Thrash and bad are not mutually exclusive...
 
The test is whether or not they use alternate picking to produce quick rhythms over a heavy back beat, not whether you like them or not... Wink
 
 
Originally posted by Yukorin Yukorin wrote:

 
Not sure who Paul Gilbert is so will check it
 
 
If you''re not biased in anyway against shredders, he will blow you away - he's one of the very best.
 
 
Originally posted by Yukorin Yukorin wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Hey Guys, I said give Tank a listen - Filth Hounds of Hades. Please, the world needs more Motorhead clones. 
 
Tank are absolutely abysmal. Saw them live supporting Motorhead (maybe on the Iron Fist tour) and was given the LP.
 
 
I saw them supporting Motorhead (probably on the same tour), and bought Tank's LP on the strength of their performance... Listening to it now, it's not bad - but not up there with Motorhead, of course.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2008 at 12:40
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

If you''re not biased in anyway against shredders, he will blow you away - he's one of the very best.
 
 
I saw them supporting Motorhead (probably on the same tour), and bought Tank's LP on the strength of their performance... Listening to it now, it's not bad - but not up there with Motorhead, of course.
 
No bias against shred! I usually insist on it on any instrument. Make my ears bleed! Please!
 
Haven't listened to the Tank LP since 82 (and I am in no hurry). I still have the plain sleeve 7" that came with it (fanboyism heh). I seem to remember that the Motorhead tour was when the stage descended from the ceiling (f**k they knew how to open a set). Pretty sure it was Iron Fist. B'ham Odeon incidentally.
 
Any ideas what that TV show was? It may have been a local thing. Whatever Central used to be called (ATV)? in the midlands. I remember fragments of great things on it. All nwobhm. Tank turned up and as the guitarist is about to power chord it after the drum only intro someone had forgotten to turn the gain/reverb on his amps giving him the cleanest Hank Marvin sound imaginable. Problem was, he weren't no Hank Marvin
 
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