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Pnoom! 
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 Posted: May 07 2008 at 10:51 |
I think you misunderstood me.
 James wrote:
Avant-prog has never started going down, in my opinion. |
It's always been around, but it was somewhat quieter after the RIO movement bands slowed down/disbanded.
| Neo-prog and avant-prog also have no correlation (in terms of listeners). |
Agreed. My argument was that if we define prog to include everything, some sort of prog has been peaking at any given time. They may not be correlated (Symph peaks, then avant-peaks, then neo peaks), but some sort of prog is always on the rise. In my initial argument, I was referring specifically to symph prog, which definitely did die out.
| Infact, I'd go so far and say avant-prog never really peaked, well, not in the 1980s. |
The RIO fest and it's aftermath was a definite peak, especially given that you had the Residents and This Heat in addition.
| Sure, you had The Residents, Miriodor, Cartoon, PFS and many others but only really The Residents were popular. |
Again, the RIO movement.
| I'd say avant-prog is more popular now (Zorn, Patton projects) than it ever has been. |
Agreed, but that just means that avant-prog is re-peaking.
| Neo came from Symphonic but there was a gap from about 1976/77 to when the early 1980s where you have mostly New Wave, post-punk and No Wave and the Yes and Genesis pop (including Asia. Japan and others). |
This is what I was initially referring to when talking about symphonic prog dying. If it had just bled into Neo, it wouldn't have ever died, it would've changed.
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el böthy
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 11:15 |
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hehehe pretty much all had to do with Crimson.
I will say Lake leaving Crimson, but not so much for the fact that he left a band, but that without that he couldn´t have formed ELP
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:17 |
Pnoom! wrote[quote]
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Originally posted by James
Avant-prog has never started going down, in my opinion. |
It's always been around, but it was somewhat quieter after the RIO movement bands slowed down/disbanded.
I agree with James, Avant has not gone down yet, first they have to reach the peak, something hard in a so elaborate and ever changing sub-genre.
Symphonic could most likely reach the peak, because the formula was exhausted and the changes were too slow (Except in determined moments like the change between SEBTP and The Lamb or TFTO to Relayer, in which the style of a major band dramatically advanced), but if you keep changing as in Avant, there will always be something new to offer.
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Neo-prog and avant-prog also have no correlation (in terms of listeners). |
Agreed. My argument was that if we define prog to include everything, some sort of prog has been peaking at any given time. They may not be correlated (Symph peaks, then avant-peaks, then neo peaks), but some sort of prog is always on the rise. In my initial argument, I was referring specifically to symph prog, which definitely did die out.
Agreed, there are moments like in 1992 to 1994 in which Symphonic gave a great advance and Avant kept advancing, even today, in which we have a small Symphonic boom, Avant keeps avamcing.
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Infact, I'd go so far and say avant-prog never really peaked, well, not in the 1980s. |
The RIO fest and it's aftermath was a definite peak, especially given that you had the Residents and This Heat in addition.
Here also with James, Rio fest wasn’t a peak, at least not a definitive peak, genres don’t have a linear advance, they have small up and downs, but the real peak, is yet to come.
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Sure, you had The Residents, Miriodor, Cartoon, PFS and many others but only really The Residents were popular. |
Again, the RIO movement.
Agreed, but lets be honest in something, genres like Symphonic had a slow change of icons, Yes is still on stage, Genesis was in the Prog Peak for a very long period, ELP, well had their up and downs but until a few years they were active, while Avant is in constant change of bands, new ones replace old ones in shoprt periods of time.
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I'd say avant-prog is more popular now (Zorn, Patton projects) than it ever has been. |
Agreed, but that just means that avant-prog is re-peaking.
Couldn’t we say ut’s reaching an up, and not yet the definitive peak?
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Neo came from Symphonic but there was a gap from about 1976/77 to when the early 1980s where you have mostly New Wave, post-punk and No Wave and the Yes and Genesis pop (including Asia. Japan and others). |
This is what I was initially referring to when talking about symphonic prog dying. If it had just bled into Neo, it wouldn't have ever died, it would've changed.
That’s a wrong conception, there was an ongoing process of change.
In 1976 more or less, the sound of the bands started to change towards Neo Prog, some people even believe ATOTT and W&W are the first examples of Neo Prog, with what I don’t agree, it was just part of the process.
Bands like ASIA or Japan where a conservative evolution of Symphonic that couldn’t prosper, because it was too complex for the vast majority and seen as “C” class Prog or Prog wannabes by Progheads.
I believe that when you try to blend a cult or semi underground genre as Prog or Punk with general mainstream, you get a hybrid that most surely doesn’t have future.
The AOR bands as a hybrid genre vanished like New Age as a hybrid genre of Punk also vanished soon.
So Symphonic evolved to Neo Prog through a period of 4 or 5 years, period in which you had different attempts to replace Symph that didn’t prospered.
Iván
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:20 |
Pnoom! wrote:
I think you misunderstood me.
James wrote:
Avant-prog has never started going down, in my opinion. |
It's always been around, but it was somewhat quieter after the RIO movement bands slowed down/disbanded.
Yes it was quieter, however see my comments below
| Neo-prog and avant-prog also have no correlation (in terms of listeners). |
Agreed. My argument was that if we define prog to include everything, some sort of prog has been peaking at any given time. They may not be correlated (Symph peaks, then avant-peaks, then neo peaks), but some sort of prog is always on the rise. In my initial argument, I was referring specifically to symph prog, which definitely did die out.
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. Then you had a renaissance period in the early 1990s with Anglagard and Par Lindh Project, naming just two.
| Infact, I'd go so far and say avant-prog never really peaked, well, not in the 1980s. |
The RIO fest and it's aftermath was a definite peak, especially given that you had the Residents and This Heat in addition.
The RIO movement practically ended in 1979. There was somewhat of an aftermath though, with the forming of Massacre in around 1980 but there was a bit a of gap until bands like Miriodor and 5uus came along. RIO was a peak yes but it ended in 1979, so the 1980s was not a peak for avant-prog although yes, there were The Residents, Massacre, This Heat, The Camberwell Now and if you include them, Tuxedo Moon, Nurse With Wound, Throbbing Gristle, Renaldo and the Loaf and others (although many don't count them as prog but just experimental anti-music, in a way). You also had the poppier and non-prog side, such as The Honeymoon Killers, The Pale Nudes and Tone Dog. None of these bands were mainstream, although The Honeymoon Killers charted and of course, The Residents were around at the time MTV started, so they got somewhat known by that.
An important note to make is: bands like Massacre, This Heat and The Camberwell Now all embraced the punk/post-punk movement and took to a different place. This is distinct from the RIO movement of a few years before. I would therefore say this was a new movement that was molded that way due to the times (Thatcherism and Reaganism, strikes and all sorts of other political and non-political stuff) which should be classed not as avant-prog but something else (no wave, post-punk, something else entirely).
| Sure, you had The Residents, Miriodor, Cartoon, PFS and many others but only really The Residents were popular. |
Again, the RIO movement.
The RIO movement died in 1979. There was an aftermath, see above. The Residents were not part of that movement really, although you could say they were related to it due to Cutler and Frith. Miriodor yes, they were, they definitely had an influence from Univers Zero, Present and Art Zoyd. Cartoon also influences from RIO. However, these were RIO-orientated (a term I have adopted after seeing it as a tag on last.fm - I used to use RIO-related but feel Orientated is a much better word) bands that were influenced by - rather than were a part of - the RIO movement. Again, only The Residents, due MTV, really got popular out of the above bands.
| I'd say avant-prog is more popular now (Zorn, Patton projects) than it ever has been. |
Agreed, but that just means that avant-prog is re-peaking.
Re-peaking yes but I feel it's never peaked as much as it has currently and that is due to many things. I give credit to The Internet, CDs and of course, Downloading, for he upsurge in popularity of all forms of experimental music. People have been able to discover many old bands and also many new bands have come on the scene. You also have bands breaking to mold, like Battles and the Math Rock of Don Caballero, Ahleuchatistas and Upsilon Acrux. They are taking music and experimentation to newer places and are molding other genres together. There's even a resurgence of symphonic prog, thanks to bands like William Grey.
| Neo came from Symphonic but there was a gap from about 1976/77 to when the early 1980s where you have mostly New Wave, post-punk and No Wave and the Yes and Genesis pop (including Asia. Japan and others). |
This is what I was initially referring to when talking about symphonic prog dying. If it had just bled into Neo, it wouldn't have ever died, it would've changed. |
I agree with this. I am not sure exactly when Marillion started but it must have been pre-1985. You also had IQ as well, another early neo-prog band.
Edited by James - May 07 2008 at 12:28
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:23 |
Here also with James, Rio fest wasn’t a peak, at least not a definitive peak, genres don’t have a linear advance, they have small up and downs, but the real peak, is yet to come.
On the contrary, I would say that the RIO fest was a definite peak; it involved the bringing together of many of the best bands in the genre. I'm not saying it can never be topped, but it was certainly a peak relative to the years immediately before and after.
Obviously, I hope that it will reach even higher heights (and I am confident it will).
That’s a wrong conception, there was an ongoing process of change.
I don't deny this, but I do think that because it was so low key on the national radar that it's possible to point to where symph "died" and neo was "born" as definite points. The shift between the two was part of that general period of experimentation with new avenues after the first wave went down.
Couldn’t we say ut’s reaching an up, and not yet the definitive peak?
At the moment, it is at a peak. If it continues to rise, as I expect it shall, then we can redefine this time as "reaching up" and move what is the definitive peak. Right now, avant-prog is the highest it has ever been, and it remains to be seen whether the mountain it's climbing continues or comes back down.
Edited by Pnoom! - May 07 2008 at 12:29
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Jim Garten
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:27 |
el böthy wrote:
I will say Lake leaving Crimson, but not so much for the fact that he left a band, but that without that he couldn´t have formed ELP |
Interesting point - Lake leaving Crimson not only led to the creation of ELP, but also facilitated Crimson moving on to the next stage...
Good one 
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:27 |
The RIO movement practically ended in 1979. There was somewhat of an aftermath though, with the forming of Massacre in around 1980 but there was a bit a of gap until bands like Miriodor and 5uus came along. RIO was a peak yes but it ended in 1979, so the 1980s was not a peak for avant-prog although yes, there were The Residents, Massacre, This Heat, The Camberwell Now and if you include them, Tuxedo Moon, Nurse With Wound, Throbbing Gristle, Renaldo and the Loaf and others (although many don't count them as prog but just experimental anti-music, in a way). You also had the poppier and non-prog side, such as The Honeymoon Killers, The Pale Nudes and Tone Dog. None of these bands were mainstream, although The Honeymoon Killers charted and of course, The Residents were around at the time MTV started, so they got somewhat known by that.
An important this is: bands like Massacre, This Heat and The Camberwell Now all embraced the punk/post-punk movement and took to a different place. This is distinct from the RIO movement of a few years before. I would therefore say this was a new movement that was molded that way due to the times (Thatcherism and Reaganism, strikes and all sorts of other political and non-political stuff) which should be classed not as avant-prog but something else (yes I realise I am inventing something new here).
Ah, but in the immediate aftermath of RIO there emerged the no wave movement. They were two seperate peaks, but within the same general genre and immediately following one another, so avant-garde on the whole was peaking.
Then, in the late eighties, you have the fusing of metal with avant-garde courtesy of John Zorn (who released his best works then) and Mr. Bungle, among others.
The problem with avant-prog is that it isn't nearly as easily defined as symphonic because there's so much more variety. The avant-garde of today is vastly different from the avant-garde of then (whereas the symph prog isn't).
Re-peaking yes but I feel it's never peaked as much as it has currently and that is due to many things. I give credit to The Internet, CDs and of course, Downloading, for he upsurge in popularity of all forms of experimental music. People have been able to discover many old bands and also many new bands have come on the scene. You also have bands breaking to mold, like Battles and the Math Rock of Don Caballero, Ahleuchatistas and Upsilon Acrux. They are taking music and experimentation to newer places and are molding other genres together. There's even a resurgence of symphonic prog, thanks to bands like William Grey.
I never disagreed that avant-garde is higher now than it ever was.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:37 |
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I changed my post slightly before I read the above.
Where I said "(yes I realise I am inventing something new here)." I have now changed it to read (no wave, post-punk, something else entirely)." as I realised afterwards that Massacre and such bands were not classed as avant-prog back then and were classed as something else (I wasn't around then, so I have no idea what they were lumped-in as).
That's if you class no wave as avant-prog. Some would not. It also depends on the individual band. Pere Ubu and Tuxedo Moon were quite popular at the time and of course, you had the emergence of the noise movement with Sonic Youth a little later as well. Then you also had PiL and Low/Heroes David Bowie, Lou Reed and The Psychedelic Furs.
Yes, you did have the metal avant-garde sound too. I don't know Zorn's output, so I cannot comment on that but there are slightly later 1990s bands like Taal and 4/3 de Trio who fuse metal and all sorts of other genres into one. I'd say Pocket Orchestra were an early pioneer of this future sound too.
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 12:44 |
Zorn's Naked City album would be the first avant-garde album with metal, I believe, back in 1989.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Symphonic could most likely reach the peak, because the formula was exhausted and the changes were too slow (Except in determined moments like the change between SEBTP and The Lamb or TFTO to Relayer, in which the style of a major band dramatically advanced), |
How was Tales from Topographic Oceans to Relayer a major change? Relayer was mostly a continuation of the ideas primarily of Howe and Anderson for long form pieces of music, which is why Wakeman decided to leave----he thought there was too much formless noodling and not enough melody, ie too much padding. Gates of Delerium easily could have fit on Tales. There was no major dramatic change. Yes just became more guitar oriented, as Howe dominated those albums, and the keyboards receded in sonic importance. And Wakeman was right----there was too much formless padding, and they refocused doing what they did best on GFTO.
For that matter, I don't see a "dramatic advancement" btw Selling and Lamb either. It was a different style of album, being one cohesive concept album, but a continuation of the overall style of the band. If anything, since the Lamb was a retreat away from long extended instrumental music and more song focused, some would argue that it was a step backwards from Selling England.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:05 |
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977 and thereafter
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
Moonmadness-Camel 1976
Spectral Mornings---Hackett 1979
UK and Danger Money---1978 and 1979
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 07 2008 at 13:10
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:06 |
Nah, Gates of Delerium is far too good to be on an album as meh as Tales.
| For that matter, I don't see a "dramatic advancement" btw Selling and Lamb either. It was a different style of album, being one cohesive concept album, but a continuation of the overall style of the band. If anything, since the Lamb was a retreat away from long extended instrumental music and more song focused, some would argue that it was a step backwards from Selling England. |
How is that a step back?
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:06 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
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Just becuase there were still releases doesn't mean prog was alive as a part of the national consciousness at the time.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:15 |
Dr. Prog wrote:
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
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Note the "about" and "thereabouts" (a poorly written sentence in retrospect) which in this case means it's not an exact date but a general date that can be +1 or -1 either side; so 1975-1977 was the general decline of symphonic prog and the death of it cannot be specified accurately to a date, let alone a specific year. If I said ""pure" symphonic prog did die, in 1976", then you'd be correct in questioning it. Besides, there's always going to be exceptions. 
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:17 |
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Exactly. Symphonic prog began dying with Tales, and it flamed out fully with Yes/Genesis both going pop. The final proof that it was really, truly dead was King Crimson remerging as a non-prog band with Discipline.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:19 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Dr. Prog wrote:
James wrote:
Yes, "pure" symphonic prog did die, in about 1976 or thereabouts. |
It did? I guess I was practicing necrophilia in 1977
Wind and Wuthering--1977
Going for the One--1977 (the most symphonic and baroque of this style ever done, and I would argue the peak of symphonic rock)
Works Vol 1--1977
Novella--Renaissance 1977
Song for All Seasons--Renaissance 1978
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Just becuase there were still releases doesn't mean prog was alive as a part of the national consciousness at the time. |
Going for the One, Wind And Wuthering and Works were all huge sellers for those bands, and I think GFTO hit #1. The resulting tours for all those albums were huge sellouts everywhere, and those bands were at the peak of popularity in 77/78, more than ever before. I was there. I was at those concerts. They were tough tickets.
Plus you had Animals in 1977 from Floyd.
Renaissance's biggest tours were in 77 and 78.
and the cited examples are just the more obvious ones.
So if symphonic prog died in 1976, no one told me or the millions of people buying those albums and going to those concerts. Sometimes having lived through the times means more than some hindsight cold intellectual analysis done 30 years later by those who were not there, and really have no clue. I would say the peak of the style actually was in 1977, and from there it did start falling out of favor as the disco crap started really taking hold.
So to say that stuff wasn't in the public consciousness is simply flat out wrong.
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Pnoom!
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:20 |
Try arguing against my next post which is a far better argument.
And Pink Floyd wasn't a symph prog band, so they are irrelevant.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:22 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Exactly. Symphonic prog began dying with Tales, and it flamed out fully with Yes/Genesis both going pop. The final proof that it was really, truly dead was King Crimson remerging as a non-prog band with Discipline. |
how was Crimson in the 80s a non prog band?  
Yes and Genesis didn't go primarily "pop" (and Genesis never went fully pop) until well into the 80s, Abacab in 81 and 90125 in 83. That is well after 1976-77.
I don't know where you are pulling your musical history from. Its as if you are just making stuff up as you go along.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:27 |
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oh, and that reminds me, I forgot the most proggy of Rush's albums, although not specifically symphonic, were released in 77 and 78, the ones where they borrowed most from the symphonic stylings of Genesis and Yes.
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Dr. Prog
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Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:39 |
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Yep, disco did major damage to not only progressive rock, but rock in general when you saw groups like the Rolling Stones succumbing. Other biggies started tumbling around that time too---Zeppelin, Sabbath, and major down periods for people like Dylan and Neil Young thereafter.
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