Pain of Salvation

The T wrote: Let's agree in one thing:  "Scarsick" is such a dissapointment that all it causes is non-musical discussions... as the music itself is weak and the lyrics the product of a resented mind... for that is what Gildenlow shows.... you can criticize things but when you sound so bitter like he does in that album, that is resentment... he sounds like a child... like a spoiled swedish brat who has the privilege to whine in public because he chose the path of creating music, which by the way is one of the less effective path to change the world.... (say what you want, good slogans have never changed anything).... As I said in my review, poor little Daniel hates America, hates rappers, hates this, hates that... it's a hate album, no better than any hate album in different genres... and the music is so generic... maybe it's what he intended after all: to show us the "mediocrity of america" by doing mediocre music.... But i  really don't think he went that far in his message... He just was so into biting his blanket and pounding his head against cushioned walls for his hate towards the US that he forgot completely how to create good progressive metal...

Indeed very likely.

/\

if you really thinks that security can be above civil rights, then you deserve your leaders and deserves the criticism. Its sad to choose Hitler and Stalin over Washington.

I am not blaming USA, just its leaders 

besides, Hitler and Stalin did the same thing: pointed a national enemy and fought it with every inch of their lives. Both of 'em where representing the "will of the people" and they both, in the beginning of their administration, had broken countries, economically, politically and "spiritually" (read here the moral of the people) speaking.


Edited by CCVP - April 20 2008 at 13:16

stonebeard wrote: The general issue should be easily seen: Most countries in the world disapprove of the USA, because: 1. The USA is engaging in imperialism in Iraq at least. This is a fact, not an opinion. 2. 9/11 was used to justify intrusive monitoring and eliminating habeas corpus laws due process laws. 3. The USA is a belligerent nation. I dislike it when people say it is the leader's fault. It is, but the leaders bow to the public. The public either thinks the USA knows what's best for the world, that it is a shining beacon of freedom and would never do anything wrong, or...nothing at all. Many people just don't care. If the public would demand more out of its government, the leaders would change.

true.

CCVP wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: E-Dub wrote: Pretty smug advice coming from somebody from a country who isn't an easy target. You have the benefit of having 63 years pass. Hey, maybe in 63 years WE'LL be the good guys! Whadd'ya say, guys! When I'm 96 I can start to feel good again. Wooo Hoooo!!! Believe me, if Germany were to get blasted daily because they were a global power it would start to feel like toothpicks under the fingernails. E I didn't say you were the bad guys. All I'm saying is that you can't defend your country by sacrificing what your country stands for. And I know that freedom, liberty and justice (for all) are some of your highest values. Of course it's very possible that I would see this very differently if our country had suffered from such an attack, or if I even was affected personally by it. But my perspective would hardly be more objective, rather the reverse.  Usually victims of crimes aren't the best candidates for investigating those crimes and/or passing sentences ... Let me say it once again: I don't think you're the bad guys, I respect the feelings you express and you also have the right to feel like being stepped on your toes when people from other nations talk about 9.11. But all over Europe people are feeling the repercussions ... in Germany civil rights are also being "revoked", internet connections are being monitored etc.. We may not have suffered the loss you have suffered, but we do feel the climate of fear.  . . . . . . . .and that is what i meant all along. Besides, rights have been "revoked" in many places, specially Europe and US. Where is the right of the inviolability of your home, of your private affairs? The government is entering the people's home (most time not literally, but they are when monitoring phone calls, internet connections, etc) and that is the 1st step of what could be something dangerous. After all, a totalitarian regime tries to control the hearts and minds of the people. Don't you think that that is somehow close to George Orwell's 1984? I mean,  people manipulating information, prisons far away from the public eye, a war against a invisible and always rejuvenating enemy   . . .

My views are much less extreme than yours. I think that the USA are still a democratic country where people can feel free, I just fear that they're slowly moving away from that, one small step at a time. And they're not alone ... all the other "western" countries show similar tendencies.

E-Dub wrote: I wasn't a history major (art geek, you know), but I don't believe Russia and Germany were hit with anything remotely close to 9/11. What they did had nobody's best interests at heart other than their own.

whose best interest's did this country's government have... not ours.. .we are meerly numbers to them.


let's put 9-11 in perspective...

in 2001.. there were 553,400 cancer deaths

in 1999 there were 41,611 people killed in auto accidents in the US.

god knows how many murders.. all as senseless and tragic as those who died on 9-11. 

I'd suggest you read your history books..  and compare 20 MILLION dead Russians to what happened on 9-11.  God knows on Germany.... sure someone can google it.  This county had a TASTE of terror and horror.

As a European, I'll add something... In Italy, after the armistice of 9/8/43 and before the end of the war in April 1945 (we're having the 63rd anniversary of the Liberation next Friday), 3,000 civilian deaths were a daily occurrence. Over 300 innocent people were killed on March 24, 1944 at the Ardeatine Caves in Rome, and in those years there were several occurrences in which the Nazis massacred the entire population of some villages in Northern and Central Italy. An aunt of my mother's died during the bombing on Sept 8, 1943.

Personally, I was totally horrified by the happenings on 9/11, and I can understand their devastating effect on the psyche of a population who had never known what it meant to be attacked from the outside on their own territory. However, I draw the line when someone states that Germany or Russia never had anything comparable.  On August 2, 1980, 84 people were killed in a bombing at the Bologna station, and the terrorists were as Italian as the victims. Were those dead people less important because there were only 84 of them?

E-Dub wrote: I wasn't a history major (art geek, you know), but I don't believe Russia and Germany were hit with anything remotely close to 9/11. What they did had nobody's best interests at heart other than their own. Long and the short of it is, if Joe Blow a few streets over is devising a bomb that he plans to duct tape to the inside of his colon in order to kill innocent people, then monitor away. What would you do? Come on...with your 18 years of wisdom, what would you do? I keep hearing how wrong we are, but haven't heard a better solution from your end. I'm eagerly awaiting this <<chin resting in hands>>.

What i lack of age, i compensate on study.

What would you call Germany's depression on post WW1? Happiness? almost 50% of the country where unemployed, inflation where sky hight (to buy a loaf of bread you needed to use and wheelbarrow filled with money!), corruption was endemic, the army was disassembled, the county lost its colonies, a big part of its conquered territories from Russia and France, including valuable mines of coal and iron, had severe population loss during the war and had a forced "democratic" government, which had no credibility, were putted to govern the country that failed to bring significant improvements. Withe the country devastated and the people filled with retributionary hate, Hitler ascended to the power, provoked a even more deadly war 45 million dead in battle (20 million where russians), killed 16 million people in 6 years (concentration camps worked from 1939 to 1945) and provoked an even bigger loss to Germany, which loss even more territories, had its army disassembled again, had its main cities in ruins and was conquered and divided by USA, France, UK and USSR.

Russia had a even worse fate, in the matter of deaths during the Stalinist regime. Stalin provoked generalized starvation to eliminate populations that were not interesting to the government, hijacked, made purges, maintained death camps for over than 30 years, being responsible for over than 45 million deaths.

When 4 thousand deaths provoked by the WTC terrorist attack is worst that that?

E-Dub wrote: Ghost Rider wrote: As a European, I'll add something... In Italy, after the armistice of 9/8/43 and before the end of the war in April 1945 (we're having the 63rd anniversary of the Liberation next Friday), 3,000 civilian deaths were a daily occurrence. Over 300 innocent people were killed on March 24, 1944 at the Ardeatine Caves in Rome, and in those years there were several occurrences in which the Nazis massacred the entire population of some villages in Northern and Central Italy. An aunt of my mother's died during the bombing on Sept 8, 1943. Personally, I was totally horrified by the happenings on 9/11, and I can understand their devastating effect on the psyche of a population who had never known what it meant to be attacked from the outside on their own territory. However, I draw the line when someone states that Germany or Russia never had anything comparable.  On August 2, 1980, 84 people were killed in a bombing at the Bologna station, and the terrorists were as Italian as the victims. Were those dead people less important because there were only 84 of them? I think my post was misunderstood. I was referring to the years leading up to WWII. I would NEVER (I repeat NEVER) devalue the lives lost in the events outlined, Raff. That's a bit unfair to take my statement over a period in time and blanket it to encompass a lot more. E

What would you call Germany's depression on post WW1? Happiness? almost 50% of the country where unemployed, inflation where sky hight (to buy a loaf of bread you needed to use and wheelbarrow filled with money!), corruption was endemic, the army was disassembled, the county lost its colonies, a big part of its conquered territories from Russia and France, including valuable mines of coal and iron, had severe population loss during the war and had a forced "democratic" government, which had no credibility, were putted to govern the country that failed to bring significant improvements. Withe the country devastated and the people filled with retributionary hate, Hitler ascended to the power, provoked a even more deadly war 45 million dead in battle (20 million where russians), killed 16 million people in 6 years (concentration camps worked from 1939 to 1945) and provoked an even bigger loss to Germany, which loss even more territories, had its army disassembled again, had its main cities in ruins and was conquered and divided by USA, France, UK and USSR.

i think that answerers your question.

CCVP wrote: E-Dub wrote: I wasn't a history major (art geek, you know), but I don't believe Russia and Germany were hit with anything remotely close to 9/11. What they did had nobody's best interests at heart other than their own. Long and the short of it is, if Joe Blow a few streets over is devising a bomb that he plans to duct tape to the inside of his colon in order to kill innocent people, then monitor away. What would you do? Come on...with your 18 years of wisdom, what would you do? I keep hearing how wrong we are, but haven't heard a better solution from your end. I'm eagerly awaiting this <<chin resting in hands>>. What i lack of age, i compensate on study. What would you call Germany's depression on post WW1? Happiness? almost 50% of the country where unemployed, inflation where sky hight (to buy a loaf of bread you needed to use and wheelbarrow filled with money!), corruption was endemic, the army was disassembled, the county lost its colonies, a big part of its conquered territories from Russia and France, including valuable mines of coal and iron, had severe population loss during the war and had a forced "democratic" government, which had no credibility, were putted to govern the country that failed to bring significant improvements. Withe the country devastated and the people filled with retributionary hate, Hitler ascended to the power, provoked a even more deadly war 45 million dead in battle (20 million where russians), killed 16 million people in 6 years (concentration camps worked from 1939 to 1945) and provoked an even bigger loss to Germany, which loss even more territories, had its army disassembled again, had its main cities in ruins and was conquered and divided by USA, France, UK and USSR. Russia had a even worse fate, in the matter of deaths during the Stalinist regime. Stalin provoked generalized starvation to eliminate populations that were not interesting to the government, hijacked, made purges, maintained death camps for over than 30 years, being responsible for over than 45 million deaths. When 4 thousand deaths provoked by the WTC terrorist attack is worst that that?

Took a while to respond. Did you have to refer to your text books and highlight like crazy? Still apples and oranges when comparing that to what happened here. You've still got plenty to learn, Grasshopper.

Moderator's note: totally unnecessary ad-hominem.

Why is it that you sound more paranoid than I, yet I'm the one who resides here? I've conducted my life along the guidelines of the law and have yet to be yanked from my bed in the middle of the night. I feel good here. 'Nuff said.

You never answered my question.

Now I have to cut the grass. As far as I know this is in accordance to state and national regulations; but, if you don't hear back from me for the rest of the day, for God's sakes, contact Amnesty International.

E


Edited by Tony R - April 21 2008 at 06:34