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Man Overboard
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Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Points: 3830
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Topic: I absolutely detest RPG reviewers. Posted: March 27 2008 at 21:55 |
It's no fun being a fan of niche videogame genres. It's a fair bit like being a prog fan, flipping through Rolling Stone. On the off-chance that something in your genre is reviewed, it's panned. Not because it's bad, but because it belongs to a genre that isn't a mainstream darling. Like when Pitchfork Media (yes, they -are- a mainstream media outlet) gives an overall excellent King Crimson EP a 3.9/10. Or their best record in many years a 6.1. This is really unacceptable, and oftentimes fans of the genre who aren't as research-obsessive may pass on an excellent album because the review they read drove it into the ground as if it were some awful abomination. In music, this is bad, but ultimately not the end of the world; there are plenty of online resources like ProgArchives where albums are reviewed for the genre they're in (...usually ), rather than against a mainstream-biased agenda. In videogame enthusiast media, it's indefensible. It's rare to see a niche game reviewed on its on merits within the genre. Sometimes, the best games will end up with scores comparable to that of an absolutely -broken- game in a more popular genre. I'm a fan of strategic dungeon-crawlers, generally known as Roguelikes. Roguelikes are RPGs with a heavy emphasis on gameplay over story. Common features include heavy item/stat management, randomly-generated levels, extraordinary difficulty, and battle strategy markedly more complex than "do I use a physical attack or magic". To a dedicated fan, the battle systems in your more mainstream Final Fantasies and soforth come across as painfully easy and lacking depth or strategy. To finish one of these games is not a given as it is with more mainstream RPGs, where any blockade can be defeated with a little bit of grinding. No, to complete a Roguelike requires your wits to be about you at all times, where a single misstep can bring about a great struggle or even total defeat. It is at times frustrating, but making progress and eventually obtaining victory is extraordinarily satisfying. In short, playing one of these games can be described as 'hardcore'. So how did I end up in this land where 'hardcore' gaming consists of playing button-mashers and 'mature' games (over-the-top swearing and bloodshed is -not- mature in my eyes), and deep, niche games that require true active thought are snubbed and rated incredibly poorly? Scanning recent professional reviews for some of the better games in my preferred genre, I find descriptors like "total garbage" and "appalling". Mystery Dungeon: Shiren The Wanderer, a wonderfully polished gem and -very- accessible to newcomers in the genre, earned the following: "We're also sure the majority of today's gamers will find it nasty, plodding, and archaic," and the reviewer proceeded to give it a disgustingly low score. Sounds a lot like a prog review in a music rag, eh? Then they feel no qualms handing out perfect 10s to formulaic, overdone RPGs where the gameplay consists of walking to a town, having a long cutscene, walking to a small cave or tower, fighting a boss, and repeating... where the player is never faced with difficulty beyond trying to stay awake long enough to get to the next part where they can control their character again. It's gotten to the point where these niche games aren't even rated -relatively- accurately within each other. The score merely mirrors just how little the reviewer knows about the genre, and you end up with ridiculous aggregates where a poor game in the genre may've scored higher than a jewel, just because the reviewer honestly doesn't understand what it's about. It's like asking an FPS fan to review an RTS. It just doesn't -work-. To be honest, I only discovered this genre of gaming a couple of years ago. I passed on all the games because the reviews panned them, and I assumed the reviews were at least a -little- accurate. It wasn't until I played one of the games by accident that I fell in love with the depth and strategy involved, and it took quite a bit of searching to discover that it was even a genre. Kind of like how I discovered prog when I was a young teenager.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
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Points: 31169
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:01 |
Man Overboard wrote:
Then they feel no qualms handing out perfect 10s to formulaic, overdone RPGs where the gameplay consists of walking to a town, having a long cutscene, walking to a small cave or tower, fighting a boss, and repeating... where the player is never faced with difficulty beyond trying to stay awake long enough to get to the next part where they can control their character again.
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I haven't gamed in many years, but I had to crack up at this - it's sort of the reason I gave up on RPGs when I left college. I don't know how old you are, but let me tell you that I was playing Ultima games on an Apple //c in the mid 80s, and the description you provided fit back then, only at that time it was more state of the art. Fast forward 20 years and we're still doing the same sh*t. Incredible.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:02 |
dude, I might have to check these roguelikes out, because I tend to enjoy indepth involved TBS and RTS games, and always found RPG's to be to simple... though I must confess to loving Final Fantacy
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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heyitsthatguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006
Location: Washington Hgts
Status: Offline
Points: 10094
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:07 |
I wish I had more time for gaming instead of being on prog forums lol
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 8844
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:07 |
It sounds just like being a prog fan. You just have to find people who are into about the same stuff as you, and ignore the people who (like me) don't know anything about RPG's beyond a couple of Final Fantasy games. I know that laplace is really into RPG's, maybe he'll have something to say here.
BTW, as I said before, I know virtually nothing about RPG's beyond Final Fantasy IV and V. What others would you recommend?
Edited by rileydog22 - March 27 2008 at 22:08
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:09 |
I was toying with the idea of getting Baulder's Gate (1 or 2...meh) and/or the likes of Fire Emblem. Any suggestions, or reinforcements of those I've already said, since I've payed neither?
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 8844
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:09 |
I'm personally a big Fire Emblem fan.
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Man Overboard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:17 |
rileydog22 wrote:
It sounds just like being a prog fan. You just have to find people who are into about the same stuff as you, and ignore the people like me (like me) who don't know anything about RPG's beyond a couple of Final Fantasy games. I know that laplace is really into RPG's, maybe he'll have something to say here.
BTW, as I said before, I know virtually nothing about RPG's beyond Final Fantasy IV and V. What others would you recommend?
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If you've got a DS, you've got the best possible system for new and inventive RPGs. While the upcoming full 3D remake of Final Fantasy IV may pique your interest, I'd also recommend wholeheartedly any of the following "Roguelike" RPGs (or similar) that have very little story focus, but provide nearly endless gameplay and challenge, ranked from most accessible to least: Izuna: Legend Of The Unemployed Ninja Mysterious Dungeon: Shiren The Wanderer Orcs & Elves Mazes Of Fate DS (upcoming) Deep Labyrinth Etrian Odyssey Tao's Adventure Many of these have a steep learning curve, but if you can figure out 'what it's about' in terms of gameplay, it's ridiculously engrossing.
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 8844
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:19 |
Are those all for the DS? I don't actually have one
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The Lost Chord
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 1907
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:19 |
First off, my man Man Overboard is the man, thanks.
OK I am a video gamer since birth, hell, even before bith...been playing video games in my mind in the whom, that is how much I love video games.
So here, I trust reviews to an extent, almost as though you play guitar or piano or what have you for thousands of years and you know the instrument like the back of your hand so you can basically filter out any BS and all and come to your own conclusions always, but can still filter out. I know video game reviewing this well, and video games in general.
I don't like RPGs, never have. But I do find that games get reviews based pretty fairly. Unpopular games like PC adventure games always come out on top in reviews, and they are bad sometimes and reviews are fairly accuarte for me. My personal experience is that SCREW reviews and just do your own thing, but I use them, definitely, for reference.
RPGs i find score lower than usual nowadays, but I do NOT disagree with them. I have no taste for RPGs, though, also...I usually agree with reviewers on just about everything and this is by my own merit.
For instance, I find the game ICO for the PS2 to be the best game ever or one of. The reviews are great, thank you reviewers you are right. No one played that game, no one cares for it, when it came out it was brushed aside, but the REVIEWERS were not bias and still loved it. Shadow of the Colossus, TEAM ICO's second project, got rave reviews and brought light to the greatness of ICO.
I must just say that reviews are irrelevant to most. Just choose for yourself! test a game out, see how you like it, screw the reviewers, they are just as much people as you or me, we are all gamers who is to say they "know more" than us!!?
Stay peaceful is above all else, love the game, love the case, instruction booklet and all else...games are beautiful and peaceful in all light, enjoy them with full heart and soul!
Take it easy and don't feel pissed at the RPG reviewers man because they are just fiends trying to make a point and look at us doing the same damned thing what a beautiful world of constant craziness and brilliance let us just live and let live baby come on thats right go for it!
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Man Overboard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:19 |
rileydog22 wrote:
Are those all for the DS? I don't actually have one
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Hmm, what do you have then?
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heyitsthatguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006
Location: Washington Hgts
Status: Offline
Points: 10094
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:19 |
are there any with a reasonable balance between story and gameplay? I kind of like some story in my games
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Drew
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:20 |
Nice post/thoughts
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:21 |
Ico was awesome. They created such an incredible atmosphere for that game; I can only think of a few games that absolutely bring you into another world to the degree that that game does.
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Man Overboard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:21 |
The Lost Chord wrote:
*snip*
Stay peaceful is above all else, love the game, love the case, instruction booklet and all else...games are beautiful and peaceful in all light, enjoy them with full heart and soul!
Take it easy and don't feel pissed at the RPG reviewers man because they are just fiends trying to make a point and look at us doing the same damned thing what a beautiful world of constant craziness and brilliance let us just live and let live baby come on thats right go for it! |
Have you been doing recreational drugs with Jon Anderson?
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:22 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:27 |
Why care About story when you can get hyped for GEARS OF WAR 2!!!!!1! only this time you can SAW ALIENS IN HALF with a CHAINSAW ROCKET LAUNCHER!!!!!11one!
ZOMG
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:29 |
WHAT A COINCIDENCE! ROCKET LAUNCHERS AND CHAINSAWS ARE MY TWO FAVORITE THINGS IN VIDEO GAMES!
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The Lost Chord
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1907
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:29 |
Stonebear btw best post ever, awesome.
Jon Anderson greatest man alive at times ofcourse!
Remember there is more to the game than the "game" come on people come on!!!
PLAY ICO AND SEE THE LIGHT OF ATMOSPHERE AND BEAUTY IN ONE, in 1!!!!!!!!
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Drew
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600
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Posted: March 27 2008 at 22:35 |
Stoney
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