Collaborators TOP 20 |
Post Reply | Page <12 |
Author | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: September 10 2004 at 16:46 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Easy Livin, If you look at my original suggestion for the TOP 20 (see hyperlink below) you'll see that I discussed the algorithm and mentioned the problem of extreme cases. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=697 One of the reasons I ruled out just using averages was for the reason you point out. (Another reason is that it does not allow differentiation between the hundreds of albums that would have the same average rating.) If you look at "Train Of Thought" you'll see that it *is* popular: 33 5-star ratings; 9 4-star ratings; 11 3-star ratings; 5 2-star ratings; 8 1-star ratings. Compare that with "Dark Side Of The Moon": 28 5-star ratings; 2 4-star ratings; 3 3-star ratings; 1 2-star rating. So, from the above, to me "Train Of Thought" *is* more popular than DSOTM whichever way you look at it. And addressing your comment about the number of people who have rated it, the fact that more people have rated it is, in itself, a possible indication of popularity. When I checked the "real" TOP 50 list in June, it was a good reflection of popularity, i.e. the 'extreme case' scenario seems not to occur in practice.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Easy Livin
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: September 10 2004 at 17:37 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fitzcarraldo, It's fun isn't it! I don't think any measure which uses the total number of "stars" as its main measure is particulary valid. In the example you quote, TOT is rated by over a third of the people as only "good"(3 stars) or worse, hardly an indication that it is universally liked. I would not like to think that if I then gave it two stars, I was making it appear more popular. (Hypothetical by the way, I have not yet heard TOT.) We will all have contributed reviews and ratings for albums we did not enjoy much. The fact that an album has a lot of ratings does not in itself make it "popular". There are quite a few albums with a lot of ratings, the majority of which are adverse. (Yes and Genesis have a few each). I think averaging is the best solution, but with the safeguard that the album must have a minimum number of reviews (say 10) to qualify. I do acknowledge though that that too is flawed. Perhaps the star ratings is not the best way to identify the top albums. Maybe there could be a separate voting section for everyone's top 10. Registered voters (i.e. forum members) could change their top 10 at any time. That would immediately remove the adverse star ratings from the calculation, and thus focus on the positive. It would also mean that if I try to differentiate between two great albums by the same band by giving one 4 stars, and one 5 stars, I can still support both in my top 10 vote. By he way, taking a straight averaging of the star ratings, DSOTM comes out far higher (4.67 vs 3.81)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: September 10 2004 at 18:04 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fun, it is! But, as I think we both agree, the comparison of averages is problematic: Album 1 has 20 5-star ratings => average = 5-stars Album 2 has 60 4-star ratings => average = 4-stars Which of the above two albums is more popular? I think the number of reviews needs to be a factor. And I think that the more people/reviews are included, the better (i.e. the bigger the sample, the more interesting and representative the result). I need to think some more about this (interesting) problem! |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
M@X
Forum & Site Admin Group Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster Joined: January 29 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4028 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 09:01 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Prog Fans , This is cool to have great polls, manage and fill with bright POSTS like thoses in this forum. That is why the FORUM of PROG ARCHIVES is such important for us. Next question :
Edited by MAX@ |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Prog On !
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Easy Livin
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 10:37 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I still say no to that one Max. I know at first it seems a bit elitist, but I retain my concerns about spamming when it becomes known that all votes count. (And rest assured it would, the bulletin boards on the various band sites would soon have notices on them saying "vote for our band"). Until we collecively come up with a reasonably foolproof way of doing it, I say stick with what we have. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
James Lee
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 05 2004 Status: Offline Points: 3525 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 15:50 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I think we should only count ratings from andrea salvador.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 16:05 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Thanks, MAX@. Well, regarding your second question, I think my opinion is known, but I also understand Easy Livin's concerns. Is there some way we could protect against the spamming that Easy Livin thinks may be a possibility? For example, only include star-ratings from non-Collaborators if there is an associated review of at least a certain length? Only disclose the results to members of the forums? Whatever is done, I think it would still be useful to have the Collaborators' TOP 20/50 as a separate list, if for no other reason than to give some recommendations to newcomers from the 'official' site reviewers. But as we've seen in this thread, the Collaborators tastes do not appear to be an indication of the tastes of the larger population. When I get time I'm going to think about the algorithm. But I'm convinced that averaging is not the best way to do it: it does not make sense to me if an album has, say, ten 5-star ratings (average = 5 stars) and then someone adds a 4-star rating (average = 4.91) and the album drops in the ratings. Easy Livin might counter by saying that adding e.g. a 2-star review should not raise an album in the ratings, and he might also be right. But if Album1 has more 5-star and 4-star reviews than Album2 (as in the example I quoted in an earlier posting) then, to me, even if Album1 has more 2-star and below ratings, Album1 is the more popular. I say this because more people like Album1 than Album2, simple as that. But I'll give the algorithm some more thought.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Online Points: 28023 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 16:12 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ELP have now dropped out of the top twenty.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
threefates
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4215 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 16:14 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No what? |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
THIS IS ELP
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
threefates
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4215 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 16:17 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Again Richard... its just me and you. That is so disappointing... I'm really very disappointed with everyone here.. I think I'm gonna go play some Trilogy now to raise my spirits.. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
THIS IS ELP
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 16:30 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I haven't reviewed my ELP albums yet!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 07 2004 Status: Offline Points: 904 |
Posted: September 12 2004 at 17:31 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
No whatever you say |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Epic.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Online Points: 28023 |
Posted: September 13 2004 at 03:08 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ELP back in the top twenty thanks to Ivan's review
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <12 |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |