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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 35941 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proto [insert Prog genre] and Related bands
    Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:36
I've put this here rather than in the Proto and Related lounge because this does not limit itself to bands in the archives. I rather think that Proto-Prog and Prog Related could use more organisation/ sub categories and multi-tagging (searchable multi-tags would work well).  In other words, I'd like to be able to search, as a examples Proto-Prog Folk, Proto Avant Prog, and Prog Folk Related and Proto Avant Prog Related artists, as it is now, things get jumbled together in those two categories.

This is kind of for fun, but kind of not for fun too.

I expect that a Proto-Symph album, or Symph Related one, as an example, is much more likely to find its way in to the Related or Proto category  than a Proto-Jazz Fusion or Jazz-Fusion Related album.  I should research, but am doing this topic hurriedly with as little thought as possible.  Of course those that influenced, or were influenced by the core Progressive Rock movement (classic) are likely to get more recognition than "umbrella" categories that are rather loosely labeled Prog, or done so in a revisionist manner.  So of course Symph is a real classic Prog "style" and one would not expect the same attitude to later styles that were influenced by classic Prog or those that have come to be labeled Prog.

Think of the Prog Metal argument (I really can't think today, so you do the thinking for me).. There is metal that was influenced by classic Prog, but it shouldn't be enough for a band that influenced metal to be considered a Proto-Prog band (Proto is term I find a little problematic), and if that Proto-Metal band was influenced by Prog, then I wonder if it should be considered Proto-Prog itself (even if that stands for progressive metal).  Anyway, I'll put those half-brained thoughts aside, as it's not necessary for this topic which I'm trying to write very hurriedly but my fingers are moving faster than my brain.

If the current Proto and Related categories were scrapped and instead we had a Proto and Related subcategory for each genre, what bands would you like to see under the following categories?  Don't bother clicking on these links.  Would actually be fun to have a Proto-Proto Prog category, a Proto-Proto Prog Related one and a RelatedProto-Prog as well as a Related to Prog-Related Category.

And my favourites for fun:

And...
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:47
Well, being a lover of all things heavy, I will start by suggesting the one and only Deep Purple for Proto-Heavy Prog (I actually wanted to move them to HP for good, but the idea didn't go down too well). As for Heavy Prog Related, there are a lot of obscure Seventies bands that we screened and rejected, but could very well be included in that category. And don't get me started with Proto-Prog Metal (all three categories).... Black Sabbath should be included by right, as should Metallica, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Well, being a lover of all things heavy, I will start by suggesting the one and only Deep Purple for Proto-Heavy Prog (I actually wanted to move them to HP for good, but the idea didn't go down too well). As for Heavy Prog Related, there are a lot of obscure Seventies bands that we screened and rejected, but could very well be included in that category. And don't get me started with Proto-Prog Metal (all three categories).... Black Sabbath should be included by right, as should Metallica, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.


Indeed... But I don't get it actually, are you thinking to split PP and PR into more sub genres?!!
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Points: 35941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 17:06
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Well, being a lover of all things heavy, I will start by suggesting the one and only Deep Purple for Proto-Heavy Prog (I actually wanted to move them to HP for good, but the idea didn't go down too well). As for Heavy Prog Related, there are a lot of obscure Seventies bands that we screened and rejected, but could very well be included in that category. And don't get me started with Proto-Prog Metal (all three categories).... Black Sabbath should be included by right, as should Metallica, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.


Indeed... But I don't get it actually, are you thinking to split PP and PR into more sub genres?!!


Sorry, I know that was not addressed to me, but...

Cacho, It's something that I've wanted for quite a long time as subcategories, but it would be a huge amount of work.  I would at least like the multi-tagging system where the bands in Proto-Proto and Prog-Related can be better classified (again, a huge amount of work).  I would like more organisation to those categories.  In fact, I think it was in your CSNY thread (if I recall correctly) that I suggested the band would be well suited to Progressive Folk Rock Related.

I'm not so much making a suggestion for site policy with this post, I'm interested, and thought it would be fun, too see what people's picks would be. 


Edited by Logan - March 15 2008 at 17:07
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Points: 7606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 18:27
Proto Proto Prog = The Shadows? ;P

actually I do like the way you think. Avant Prog-related could be useful to house a lot of suspicious additions, like a certain cabaret/torch song band included here thanks to band relations. And we could bring in a lot of missing influences on prog, most notably bands like The Velvet Underground.

Sounds like a lot of work. Count me in for the Proto Various Artists team, I love compilations o:)


Edited by laplace - March 15 2008 at 18:27
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 18:41
Proto-Neo-Prog = Symphonic Prog.

Woosh that was easy.
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Points: 5872 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 19:11
Proto Post-Rock = TALK TALK
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 21:37
Interesting idea Greg, but I think by adding a further two degrees of separation you have effectively defined a route by which just about any artist could be considered for inclusion (if not actually included).
 
However as a means of "improving" the current Proto and Related subgenres it has merit - at present people only see the name and not the reason for inclusion - a Prog Related band is related to what exactly?
 
The existing Proto and Related subgenres could be much larger than they currently are, after all the Progressive Rock genre is a sub-set of Popular Music and it is unlikely that only 143 bands have been related to Prog during its 39 year existence, and the current definition of Proto-Prog excludes bands that were the prototypes of many of the "new" subgenres such as Post Rock and Prog Metal since they could not have existed prior to 1969. Keeping these subgenres small removes the emphasis on them and keeps the site focused on the real job in hand, but it also creates a false image of the (insular) status of Prog in the bigger picture of Popular Music.
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 21:50
but compared to even a broad definition of Popular music (Pink Floyd, Neil Young, etc.), the whole of Prog is insular, or insulated, except during its popular height in the early/mid 70s   ..though I wouldn't be against clarifying Proto and Related as they currently exist in some way, I also think we help educate people by explaining what these categories mean and why they're important   ..I mean, that's part of the job, no?









 

Edited by Atavachron - March 15 2008 at 21:51
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Points: 35941 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2008 at 15:19
I know that some of the ideas presented here are inherently ludicrous, and intentionally so.  Indeed, it would open the doors up to most everything.  While I think the relation should be made clear in the bio how and where that Prog-Related band fits as well as a Proto-Prog's relation (how  it  influenced the development of Prog) -- I do like bands in a  category to show a reasonably clear stylistic relationship to each-other.  Just a matter of more functionality/ making it easier to search.

Clickable Prog trees (and, no not a Porcupine tree), or more a series of trees, would be a good addition to the site as an additional way to research bands and styles in the database that would show the relationship between styles and bands better.  It would be a ton of work, of course.  I know how that could work, but I won't try to explain it now as my brain is really sluggish.

I think that multi-tagging will be the best answer, actually (multi-tagging bands as well a individual albums) as a  searchable way to see bands that are related to each-other in an explicit stylistic way.  Of course that goes beyond the preview of my topic into the full prog category bands.

I understand the problems with such an approach, but my primary intent with this topic is more for fun than a suggestion for this site in an exercise of mentioning bands that could fit in the categories I listed (though i wouldn't expect all those categories).

Here's mine: Proto Avant Prog/ Zeuhl/ Fusion:  John Coltrane and Sun Ra.  Certainly these artists, and various free jazz artists were very influential to Avant bands.  Also Stockhausen of course was very influential (perhaps there already is an article, or articles devoted to these artists influence)
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2008 at 15:26
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Well, being a lover of all things heavy, I will start by suggesting the one and only Deep Purple for Proto-Heavy Prog (I actually wanted to move them to HP for good, but the idea didn't go down too well). As for Heavy Prog Related, there are a lot of obscure Seventies bands that we screened and rejected, but could very well be included in that category. And don't get me started with Proto-Prog Metal (all three categories).... Black Sabbath should be included by right, as should Metallica, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.


Indeed... But I don't get it actually, are you thinking to split PP and PR into more sub genres?!!
Sorry, I know that was not addressed to me, but...Cacho, It's something that I've wanted for quite a long time as subcategories,
but it would be a huge amount of work. I would at least like the
multi-tagging system where the bands in Proto-Proto and Prog-Related
can be better classified (again, a huge amount of work). I would like
more organisation to those categories. In fact, I think it was in your CSNY thread (if I recall correctly) that I suggested the band would be well suited to Progressive Folk Rock Related.I'm not so much making a suggestion for site policy with this post, I'm interested, and thought it would be fun, too see what people's picks would be.


Yeah I thought so it was going to be a hard work...
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