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Easy Livin 
Special Collaborator
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 Topic: Abolish Italian Symphonic Prog as a genre
Posted: March 22 2008 at 06:35 |
This topic has been widely discussed over the last year or so. The various views are well known and documented, so it's probably best to give it a rest for a while. We can revisit it with fresh eyes at some time in the future.
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jimmy_row
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 17:26 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
And no offense, but I really wish people would listen to the damn music before coming up with topics like these...
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I believe I heard some music, have gheard all the Symphonic bands in our database and more and plenty Italian Symphomnic, but everybody knows my position, I don't believe in regional or national sub-genres, that's what the schools of influence are for.
But this is a decision that the Administrators and Owners have to take, and won't throw more wood to the fire asking anything.
Both positions have supporters and arguments to backup them, so respect all the positions and don't criticize people for not agreeing with you.
Iván |
Ivan, I knew that you had a different opinion than I do when I posted, that's why I started out carefully...I think that you have an informed opinion and are an exception to most. Most of the arguments that I have heard have been uninformed, and without a consistent premise...but like I said, I've gone over the previous thread and appreciate your take on the issue; my apologies to you if I was disrespectful.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 15:46 |
jimmy_row wrote:
And no offense, but I really wish people would listen to the damn music before coming up with topics like these...
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I believe I heard some music, have heard all the Symphonic bands in our database and more and plenty Italian Symphonic, but everybody knows my position, I don't believe in regional or national sub-genres, that's what the schools of influence are for.
But this is a decision that the Administrators and Owners have to take, and won't throw more wood to the fire asking anything.
Both positions have supporters and arguments to backup them, so respect all the positions and don't criticize people for not agreeing with you.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 22 2008 at 00:32
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jimmy_row
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 12:36 |
RPI is as distinct, perhaps more, than Canterbury or Krautrock...if they deserve a place, then RPI does as well, no doubt. The only problem is that ISP could maybe be switched into RPI as has been discussed.
And no offense, but I really wish people would listen to the damn music before coming up with topics like these...you'll notice that a majority of members who enjoy and explore Italian prog support it as an independent genre - because there is a respect for the unique sound and blend of influences that define it. IMO it's quite illogical to propose this change and support Canterbury as seperate from Jazz-Rock, it works under the same principle (and yes the italian sound DID reach beyond Italy, just listen to 70s French bands from multiple genre's, Spanish, Andalusian, Hungarian, Romanian...many underground scenes were influenced by RPI, they're just below the radar...you have to look for them).
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Finnforest
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 10:45 |
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I respect Jake's opinion but disagree with his suggestion. Just want to register my opinion with those who feel Ital-prog has established itself worthy of its own genre, by the sheer crushing number of great albums from a small area, by its longevity as an accepted genre, and by the opinion of our experts here (others, not me!) who have deemed it worthy for various reasons. And it has been influential outside Italy on a personal level to musicians who have heard it, though admittedly less so than the English/German genres he notes. As someone who has immersed themselves in these albums, I can tell you there is more going on there than simply a regional relationship.
If we can have so many genres present here there is no reason that an accepted genre with so many fans should be snuffed out after so many people have worked hard to make this site's Italian portion one of the best sources of content on the Web. I hope Admin will reject this suggestion to fold Italian prog. Just my opinion, and again, no disrespect meant to Rileydog whose presence here I enjoy.
Could we please have an update by Admin as to what is happening in regard to this issue? Is folding Italian actually being considered here?
Thanks.
Edited by Finnforest - March 21 2008 at 10:47
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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rileydog22
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Posted: March 20 2008 at 22:52 |
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I don't care what you call it. It still is simply a regional dialect on the style of symphonic. If it were a true genre, it would be picked up by at least ONE SINGLE BAND outside of the nation of Italy.
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timeprog
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Posted: March 20 2008 at 19:10 |
Call Italian Prog ISP is not correct, it generates this kind of discussion and does not respond to truth.
RPI (Rock Progressivo Italiano) is the correct name and does not generate doubt that RPI is a real Prog genre.
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Desoc
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Posted: March 20 2008 at 12:04 |
The T wrote:
I think we actually should start a bigger division:
British prog rock (divided in scottish, english and northern irish prog rock)
German prog rock (divided in krautrock and prog-rock made in german a la british)
French prog rock (Zeuhl and gourmet prog rock)
Swedish prog rock (divided in symphonic swedish prog rock a la 70's and symphonic swedish prog rock a la crimson)
<snip> |
Well, with the new top list system, it's perfectly possible for anyone to create their own "nationality genres" based on the existing ones. I agree that Italian Symphonic Prog seems a little like an ugly duckling in the current system. The key question is by which criteria ISP can be considered a genre of its own. I think that an important difference between a national or local scene and a genre is that a genre recruits widely. In other words, if ISP hasn't "succeeded" in exporting its sound, like Canterbury and Krautrock have, then I don't think it can be called a genre in itself. In that case, a lot of other scenes should be given the same treatment. Scandinavian prog, for example, which has a rather distinct sound. But again, the top list system should solve most relevant problems. Do a search on "Symponic Prog" and "Italy" and you'd have it. So in sum, I don't think it's a solution to "nationalize" the genre system. Rather, the Symphonic Prog should include all national subscenes, and then be divided into more specific categories based on sound rather than nationality. I'm glad to hear from Ivan that there are plans for this category.
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cuncuna
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 23:30 |
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There's a more important genre that hasn't been considered here: the "¿How in the world is this prog?. Bands to list should start with Mercury Rev.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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cuncuna
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 23:28 |
The T wrote:
I think we actually should start a bigger division: British prog rock (divided in scottish, english and northern irish prog rock) German prog rock (divided in krautrock and prog-rock made in german a la british) French prog rock (Zeuhl and gourmet prog rock) Swedish prog rock (divided in symphonic swedish prog rock a la 70's and symphonic swedish prog rock a la crimson) Ecuadorian Prog rock (wishful thinking...  ) Mauritanian Prog rock....
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Don't forget Antigua y Barbuda prog.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
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Points: 28057
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 23:22 |
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Revolution calling!
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ClassicRocker
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 23:14 |
^^^ was the RIO movement in America at all?  I didn't think it was....
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rileydog22
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 19:25 |
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If we need to separate out every region which has a unique-sounding genre of prog, we're gonna need an awful lot of extra subgenres. ISP is no more different from the rest of symphonic than American RIO is from the rest of the avant scene, or than Japanese Zeuhl is from the French variety. Hell, we'll probably need at least a dozen folk genres, because every region's folk music is different.
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Kotro
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 04:45 |
Let's abolish all genres. Problem solved. 
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Bigger on the inside.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 03:34 |
As Raf has pointed out, ISP is not simply an extract of Symphonic Prog based on the regional identity of the band. It is a recognised style of prog and while most of the protagonists are naturally Italian, there are some non-Italian providers.
Likewise, Krautrock and Canterbury may be named after places, but they are musical styles (although my personal feeling in the case of Canterbury is that it defines a group of linked artists rather than a discernable style of music).
I don't want to resurrect the RPI debate, but the concern of the admin team about changing ISP to RPI was that doing so could make the regional aspect more important than the musical one.
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Raff
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 02:17 |
rileydog22 wrote:
Stoney's idea of merging neo prog with symphonic is interesting, but he misses the genre which truly needs to be merged with symphonic: ISP. I checked the band list today and not a single band listed as ISP is from a country other than Italy. If Italian Symphonic Prog is defined by a distinctive sound, rather than just a nationality, how is it possible that this distinctive sound has never once been captured by a band from another nation?! The other regionally-defined genres, Kraut and Canterbury, each have numerous bands from nations other than the one in which the movement originated, yet ISP has never left the borders of Italy. |
Sorry for not addressing the musical issue in my earlier post, but I was having breakfast before going to work, and needed a bit more time to gather my thoughts.
The influence of ISP (which is a misnomer, btw... Half of the bands there are NOT symphonic as such) is very clearly to be seen in many South American and Japanese prog bands, as Ivan and Guigo would be able to tell you. As a matter of fact, when Guigo comes back from his European trip (he's in Paris now.. .I met him last Sunday in Rome), he'll probably chime in and share his wisdom on this particular issue. Until then, I'm afraid you'll have to take our word for that. 
Edited by Ghost Rider - March 06 2008 at 05:02
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The T
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 01:15 |
I think we actually should start a bigger division:
British prog rock (divided in scottish, english and northern irish prog rock)
German prog rock (divided in krautrock and prog-rock made in german a la british)
French prog rock (Zeuhl and gourmet prog rock)
Swedish prog rock (divided in symphonic swedish prog rock a la 70's and symphonic swedish prog rock a la crimson)
Ecuadorian Prog rock (wishful thinking... )
Mauritanian Prog rock....
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Ricochet
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Joined: February 27 2005
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 01:02 |
Skipping the part where I have to try to say something ironic...  Well, Riley, the nationality problem has been raised by many, even by Specialists. So try checking the "sound" and "flavor" of ISP music, cause from your post it looks like you've only been amazed by the "nationality" issue.
Edited by Ricochet - March 06 2008 at 01:07
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bhikkhu
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 00:35 |
Oh, you mean as subdivisions of Prog Metal as a whole? That would be madness! 
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Raff
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Posted: March 06 2008 at 00:20 |
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Micky won't be happy about that, not happy at all.. You should count yourselves lucky that his Internet connection was down and he couldn't answer. I don't want to speak on his behalf here, because he'll have enough time to respond to this issue when he gets back online.
I just want to say something, before I leave to go to work: before you speak, be sure to get the correct information, as David did. I am the only person on PA who was actually there when the phenomenon of RPI (Rock Progressivo Italiano) was born, and I know what I am talking about.
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Abolish Italian Symphonic Prog as a genre
