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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 17:40

I don't deny the Catholic Church Anti Semirtism and worst things as the Inquisition, but the Pope John Paul II asked public excuses for the sins of a church that were commited centuries before he was even born.

But that's not the point, the album is full of accusations to a Church of those days and attacks against dogmas as the Saints, the Holy Communion and Celibacy; so if you are going to tell a story tell it complete, if not, it's just preaching and not writting a concept, only making propaganda for the things you want people to listen.

Paul VI said that the worst thing the Catholic Church could do is to deny the past sins, so since Vatican II Council, the whole documentatiion is open for everybody breaking with the past, as a fact, John Paul II and Benedictus XVI created a strong relation with the Jewish Community, Benedictus co-celebrated a cermony with Rabbi Netanel Teitelbaum and The European Jewish Congress saluted this important visit, pointing out that Pope Benedict XVI has already proven himself to be committed to adding on to the strong foundation Pope John Paul built in Judeo-Catholic relations

So we acknowledge the past sins, but condemned them strongly, even if this involved the Church.

I beieve that before accusing past sins as Mr Morse does, he should better see the ones that were done by the other side.

I wouldn't support a Catholic Prog album against other religions or preaching subliminal messages in the music, but neither I will accept attacks against my parents and my Church, and that's what Mr. Morse does, not writting a concept, not telling the complete story just thrwoing more wood to a fire that is already burning.

Trademark wrote:

THIS and only THIS is what Sola Scriptura are about. Luther's views on Jews are not part of the story

Yes it ois, because Luther brought a whole different concept about Christianity, and his anti semite beliefs are part of this, to the point that he says in an interview[

I was pretty much done with the album. Then one day I was looking for something on the Internet, and came across these anti-Semitic remarks by Martin Luther, and I was really disheartened and felt strongly that I should say so. I want people to know that I know. I didn't feel like I should scrap the album, because I still feel that God used Luther to bring more light to the world and the church.

So he knew an he believed it was important for the concept of teh album, but only mentioned in the liner notes

It's also important to know that Morse says personally that Sola Scriptura is not only about the Luther's era:

Is Sola Scriptura an attack on the Catholic Church?

Morse: It takes place in Luther's time, but I go beyond that all the way to the book of Revelation. I think it's important to understand that throughout history, the church fell away from Jesus and his teachings. It fell away from "Love your enemies," for example. That's what I'm trying to paint through Martin Luther and the Catholic Church. That is the first step to understanding Sola Scriptura.

Booth quotes from: http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/interviews/2007/nealmorse-0407.html

So it's innocent to believe that this album is bnot an attack to past and actuual Catholic Chhurch and that's wrong

That's my opinion.

Iván

BTW: All the quotes have been taken from a bnon Catholic page: http://www.jesuscult.com/Luther_Anti-Semite.htm

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2008 at 19:35

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 17:54

Trademark wrote:

...and the Pope STILL says all us non- catholics (including the likes of Billy Graham) are going straight to Hell for no other reason than not being catholic.

FALSE TRADEMARK :

The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II"). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on "The Mystery of the church." Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:

	Followers of the Catholic Church,
	Members of other Christian denominations, and
	Believers of non-Christian religions. ₅

The language is difficult to follow for a lay person. However, an "Assessment of this Council" was written "as an AID to study by Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council. They contain material, some written in a journalistic style, for the American reader." In the section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

That's what some Christians say, but the official position, of the Catholic Church, based in a document wroitten Ex Cathedra, hasn't been changed. Not even the Pope speaking for himsel can change this, he should make it Ex Cathedra through a Council or a Enciclical Document.

BTW: Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a document signed by Pope John Paul II that said:

" 'Dominus Iesus' on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church" was published on 2000-AUG-6 by Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was released on SEP-5. The document had been ratified and confirmed by the Pope John Paul II on JUN-16 "with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority." ₁₀The document appears to have been triggered by the growth in acceptance of "relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism." ₁₂It states that:

	"The full revelation of divine truth is given" in the "mystery of Jesus Christ." No additional revelation is expected in the future.
	Elements of Christianity were placed in other religions by the Holy Spirit.
	Jesus is the only savior of mankind.
	All who are saved achieve this status through the Roman Catholic Church.
	Salvation is possible to those who are not Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox.
	The prayers and rituals of other religions may help or hinder their believers. Some practices may prepare their membership to absorb the Gospel. However, those rituals which "depend on superstitions or other errors... constitute an obstacle to salvation."

As clear as water, by the contrary, some Christian denominations say that them and only them can reach salvation, and I can quote that.

Trademark wrote:

Luther wasn't infalible and neither is the Pope. Luther's views of Jews were not so terribly different from those of the Papacy at the time.

The Pope is infallible when talking Ex Cathedra, that's a dogma for us, the fact that you don't believe in it, doesn't make it false.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2008 at 19:17

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 19:23

I agree that this topic is not the place for this discussion and it is why I apologized in advance using Sola Scriptura as an example of what I was saying as I knew how sensitive this was to Ivan.

Since I was the one who broached the subject can we please just move on and get back to the topic subject?

"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 19:40

Garion81 wrote:

I agree that this topic is not the place for this discussion and it is why I apologized in advance using Sola Scriptura as an example of what I was saying as I knew how sensitive this was to Ivan.

Since I was the one who broached the subject can we please just move on and get back to the topic subject?

I agree Garion.

My original point is that I'm against Christian, Catholic or whatever music is used as an instrument to evangelize and preach, not anti Christian or anti nothing, I'm anti preaching outside a Church or a school (except in Religion class or religuious schools).

BTW: The whole problem starts with the original question, why use Christian VS secular, this implies a confrontation.

Iván

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 19:46

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Since I was the one who broached the subject can we please just move on and get back to the topic subject?

I agree Garion.

BTW: The whole problem starts with the original question, why use Christian VS secular, this implies a confrontation.

Iván

Musicians should be free to say whatever they want with their music. People should be free to either listen to it or not.

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 20:08

artguyken wrote:

Musicians should be free to say whatever they want with their music. People should be free to either listen to it or not.

Exactly, that's why I use my freedom to be against any form of preaching through Prog or Rock.

Iván.

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 20:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

artguyken wrote:

Musicians should be free to say whatever they want with their music. People should be free to either listen to it or not.

Exactly, that's why I use my freedom to be against any form of preaching through Prog or Rock.

Iván.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it seems a very odd position for a guy who belongs to a church that claims to trace itself back to the Apostle Peter, who didn't preach in a church, but was a street evangelist of sorts.

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 21:13

artguyken wrote:

You're welcome to your opinion, but it seems a very odd position for a guy who belongs to a church that claims to trace itself back to the Apostle Peter, who didn't preach in a church, but was a street evangelist of sorts.

Not odd, Peter gave a directmessage to those who wanted to listen him, he didn't used lyrics of a popular song to gain followers,

Preaching should be for those who want to listen it, not masked in popular music to brainwash young people, who will repeat the lyrics oif they like the music without being concious of what they are saying.

That's my opinion.

Iván

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 23:07

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Not odd, Peter gave a directmessage to those who wanted to listen him, he didn't used lyrics of a popular song to gain followers,

That's my opinion.

Iván

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Ivan. Brainwashing is such a strong term and simply wrongly applied here. Brainwashing is a subtle procedure. Sola Scriptura is as subtle as a sledge hammer. People are not brainwashed by a blunt object applied to the side of the head with force.

People who want to listen to music should do so with discernment, because music is full of ideas -- dangerous and subversive ideas, sometimes, uplifting and encouraging ideas other times.

By the way, Peter didn't speak to people who came to listen to him. He spoke out in the marketplace to a crowd. He challenged their religious traditions. Some scoffed, but others believed. The crowd had the freedom to stand and listen, or to walk away and ignore him. It's the same here.

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 23:23

artguyken wrote:

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Ivan. Brainwashing is such a strong term and simply wrongly applied here. Brainwashing is a subtle procedure. Sola Scriptura is as subtle as a sledge hammer. People are not brainwashed by a blunt object applied to the side of the head with force.

Brainwashing is precise for this case, I heard a lot of people saying "Het I don0't care about the lyrics, but the music is great"..........This people velieve they don't care about the lyrics but I heard them humming lyrics against their own Church without conciously understanding what they are singing.

If Brainwashing has to be subtle, why then music with Satanic or violent lyrics have a warning enforced by the Churches?

Of course I believe that is dangerous, repulsive and worst, but the principle is the same.

People who want to listen to music should do so with discernment, because music is full of ideas -- dangerous and subversive ideas, sometimes, uplifting and encouraging ideas other times.

Sadly that's not the case, most kids don't have discernment, otherwise how can you explain that in Perú a country with 95% of Catholics, each and every local station has a Evengelist program anouncing weekly Christian Rock concerts?

It works, some kids go for the music but stay there, IMO music ceases to be an art and starts to be a jingle.

By the way, Peter didn't speak to people who came to listen to him. He spoke out in the marketplace to a crowd. He challenged their religious traditions. Some scoffed, but others believed. The crowd had the freedom to stand and listen, or to walk away and ignore him. It's the same here.

Precisely, he told people what he was talking about, people could listen him, leave or even be aggressve, but in this case the music is the excuse to throw a message to an unprepared audience.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2008 at 23:27

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 23:47

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If Brainwashing has to be subtle, why then music with Satanic or violent lyrics have a warning enforced by the Churches?

Precisely, he told people what he was talking about, people could listen him, leave or even be aggressve, but in this case the music is the excuse to throw a message to an unprepared audience.

Iván

OK... I've gotten sucked into a discussion with you that I really don't care to continue and I'm guessing most people who came to read about music and not a debate about the whether or not Neal Morse has the right to sing about Martin Luther's beefs with the Catholic Church.

Write to him, Ivan, if you must.

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Posted: February 10 2008 at 23:56

Don't worry Artguyken, I don't care for him or his music that much (I don't even write to the artists I care about), also got sucked when the issue was mentioned.

Iván

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Posted: February 11 2008 at 07:45

I'm not religious but I do have some christian rock albums in my collection by virtue of their musical strength.

My favorite are some of the mid 80's albums from Petra - Not of This World and Beat the System along with their 1985 live album Captured in Time and Space. Petra's music at this point was not quite prog but did have several prog elements that I dig - generally excellent muscianship, strong songwriting, and a strong vocalist (The keyboard solo from their live album would easily stand up with any other prog bands IMO).

again, i'm not religious and generally despise christian propaganda (that is, media specifically designed to spread christianity) but I really respect their music and think their faith definitely fueled the quality of those works. I still enjoy listening to it and while I'm certainly not swayed I very much respect thier drive.

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Posted: February 12 2008 at 11:28

I'm curious how many people following this thread have any of Kerry Livgren's solo albums, "Seeds of Change", "Collector's Sedition" or "The Best of Kerry Livgren" or any of the albums with AD, in the 80's? For anyone looking for Prog from a Christian perspective, I highly recommend Kerry's music.

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Posted: February 12 2008 at 22:05

The concept on Sola Scriptura is bothersome, and the music isn't as good as his best imo. Testimony and ? are incredible albums musically though. The concepts for those albums are religious but there is more to them than that, and it's nothing weird like SS, so I can just listen to the music and the lyrics are actually pretty good too. No brainwashing going on, you stooges. People hum lyrics because they are catchy, they hum complete nonsense all the time. Neal's lyrics are catchy, regardless of what they're about, so why does it have to be brainwash because he's talking about Christianity?

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Posted: February 14 2008 at 10:36

Ajalon has been mentioned a couple of times. For those who don't know, Randy George, who also plays for Neal Morse, is the bass player of Ajalon and Rick Wakeman plays keyboards on a couple of tracks for their "Threshold of Eternity" album.

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Posted: February 14 2008 at 11:12

profanatio wrote:

I happen to be a christian

What "flavor" of ?

profanatio wrote:

I despise mainstream christian music.

So do I... Angry

it all sounds the same. "Contemporary Christian Music" artists have no creative skills -

Oddly enough the very first verse in the bible teaches the doctrine of creativity (if one could call it that ).

Most CCM artists just copy / paste all the sounds of secular pop songs then add anemic religious lyrics. + Most are poor musicians to begin with.

profanatio wrote:

there are actually christian prog bands.

Personal opinion...They aren't authentic Christians...and it's not authentic prog.

profanatio wrote:

but I do know that no matter how much they glorify God lyrically, if I dont like the music I wont listen to it.

Again...if all they're doing is mimicking secular material then dumping in thoughtless "Christian lyrics"...then it is NOT any honor to God at all.

How does shallowness, "copy-catting", and poor musicianship bring any honor whatsoever to God (assuming that one is attempting to do so in the first place )?

.

.

Edited by Utah Man - February 14 2008 at 11:15

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Posted: February 14 2008 at 11:18

artguyken wrote:

Ajalon has been mentioned a couple of times. For those who don't know, Randy George, who also plays for Neal Morse, is the bass player of Ajalon and Rick Wakeman plays keyboards on a couple of tracks for their "Threshold of Eternity" album.

For some reason I thought Wakeman produced one of their albums, or helped sign them to his record label or something along those line. Although, I could be "misremembering".

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Posted: February 14 2008 at 11:21

Found it. From AllMusic, "when Rick Wakeman first heard them in 1996, he signed them to his label, Hope Records".

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Posted: February 14 2008 at 11:35

Trademark wrote:

...and the Pope STILL says all us non- catholics (including the likes of Billy Graham) are going straight to Hell for no other reason than not being catholic.

Hmm...
this is what Mormons believe...if you're not a member of the LDS church, you're not going to the highest heaven. (Actually they believe in three levels of heaven, non-Mormons will end up in one of the lower spiritual Echelons)

.