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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7rJAEvA-vk

Some techniques for expression become useless/impossible when playing fast, I give you that. But at the same time other possibilities open up. For example, if you can play ultra-fast parts as fluently and effortlessly as Eddie demonstrates here ... Big%20smile

well, that video pretty much demonstrates what I mean. he is most expressive whenever he slows down, or on the last note of a fast run, with the only exception perhaps being the tremolos


Maybe we really have different definitions of expression or emotion.
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 13:15
Originally posted by Utah Man Utah Man wrote:


not necessarily in order :
John McLaughlin...
Joe Pass...
Chet Atkins...

these guys for starters


Ah yes the master finger-picker Chet Atkins and the legend that is Mclaughlin, both are superb. Never heard Joe Pass before, i won't comment. Doyle Dykes is also a phenominal finger-picker.



Edited by kibble_alex - February 02 2008 at 13:16
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Points: 362 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 13:19
Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

Originally posted by Utah Man Utah Man wrote:


not necessarily in order :
John McLaughlin...
Joe Pass...
Chet Atkins...

these guys for starters


Ah yes the master finger-picker Chet Atkins and the legend that is Mclaughlin, both are superb. Never heard Joe Pass before, i won't comment. Doyle Dykes is also a phenominal finger-picker.




Don't forget Duck Baker and Leo Wijnkamp jr (a dutch guy who made some albums in the 70's after which he retired from playing guitar)
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 13:54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQQIT4SJHpY

Here's some chicken pickin' for your pleasure!
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Points: 362 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 17:07
what about this guy? Tuck Andress playing Santana's Europe

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=NtljYur4_T8&feature=related
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 18:04
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?

the faster you play the more sloppy you have to be. there is a limit to what can be done with speed. which is why speed does not impress me much musically. I can play piano at breathtaking speed, but what's the point of that? you can't play those semiquavers cleanly once you get beyond a certain speed. and you definitely can't put expression into them that way.
when I was younger I also thought that speed was everything and had a similar approach as those slashers. however, nowadays I look at it as a bit puerile. it is like "who can piss the highest?"


I'm really, really glad that I can enjoy so much more music. Fast -> bad. Heavy -> bad. Metal -> bad. Double Bass -> bad. Growling -> bad. Does anybody else see a pattern here?

And for the record: Yes, you can play fast *and* emotional/tasteful at the same time. The faster -> the more sloppy ... yes, perhaps as a rule of thumb it's true, but there are players who *can* play really fast and aren't sloppy at all. And this is indeed what distinguishes a true virtuoso from other players who are "just" very good. They control their instrument, and not the other way round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1qYCW7KqQ

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I never said fast is bad. what i said is that the attitude of trying to be the fastest out there is puerile, and I'll stick to that. and I definitely never said heavy is bad. I like it heavy. double bass drum is something especially Friede picks on; as a drummer she finds it distasteful.
oh, and I am really glad I am more distinctive in what I like instead of just swallowing all that is being offered to me. you deserve this little tit-for-tat for your comment. fast -> good. heavy -> good. metal -> good. double bass -> good. growling -> good.. does anybody see a pattern here?
Paganini was THE violin virtuoso of the 19th century, and his name has become a synonym for virtuosity. people were baffled by the breathtaking speed at which he could play. but the women started to weep when he played his adagios


Edited by BaldJean - February 02 2008 at 18:31


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 18:30
^ of course there is a pattern. My taste obviously encompasses a greater variety of styles and techniques than yours. Please note that I don't simply like every piece of music which comes my way ... I'm actually quite particular about what I like and what I don't like. The point is: I usually don't dismiss entire genres or techniques. And even those styles which I don't enjoy I deal with on a "live and let live" basis ... if I mindlessly bashed things I don't understand but many other people understand or even call masterpieces, my bashing would certainly backfire on me.

Maybe I simply can't stand negativity ...


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 02 2008 at 18:33
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Points: 2537 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 18:43
For a combination of technique and speed, without being sloppy I would say Petrucci, followed by Malmsteen, then Vai, then Satriani and Eric Johnson (In that order)
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 18:44
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ of course there is a pattern. My taste obviously encompasses a greater variety of styles and techniques than yours. Please note that I don't simply like every piece of music which comes my way ... I'm actually quite particular about what I like and what I don't like. The point is: I usually don't dismiss entire genres or techniques. And even those styles which I don't enjoy I deal with on a "live and let live" basis ... if I mindlessly bashed things I don't understand but many other people understand or even call masterpieces, my bashing would certainly backfire on me.

Maybe I simply can't stand negativity ...

I don't dismiss entire genres at all. but this "I am the fastest player of the world" attitude simply bores me. and I will stick to it: it is puerile.
Glenn Gould recorded the Goldberg variations twice in his life, with about 20 years in between. the first recording of them is simply breathtaking - nobody had ever played them that fast. his second recording was a lot slower, but it is artistically much more convincing, simply because there is a lot more expression in it.
I happen to like both versions, but if I had to vote which one would go on the lonely island with me I would pick the 2nd version



Edited by BaldJean - February 02 2008 at 18:49


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 18:57
Most of my favorite guitarists are able to play very fast or even have a reputation for frequently doing so, yet they also play slowly or generally have an eclectic style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QO_Q4l8ynA (Steve Vai, playing slowly)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8eouDOsUOM  (Eric Johnson, who normally doesn't play ultra-fast - yet this song is one of the most difficult ones to play because of the speed)
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Points: 10261 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 19:21
Since I am a drummer and a restaurant owner let me use a culinary metaphor: The bass drum is like the salt in a meal. Use too much, and it becomes too salty. Some people like it that way; for those we have salt shakers on the tables. But I assure you I am definitely not pleased when they do; I regard it as an insult to the cook. i prefer my meals less salty, and I prefer my music without double bass drum.
Jean has used the right word for this "fastest and loudest" attitude: Puerile. It is like some kind of puberty rite. At the beginning of the novel "Katz und Maus" by Günther Grass there is a scene in which young boys engage in a w**king contest to see who can ejaculate the farthest. That's what double bass drum reminds me of.


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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 04:18
^ If that's not the greatest insult you could possibly make to the musicians, then I don't know what is.


BTW: The flaw in your analogy is of course that double bass drumming is not like the salt in a dish. Change it to pepper or chili, and it suddenly makes much more sense. Some people will not eat hot meals at all ... as soon as they taste the chili, they complain about it being too hot. Other might drink Tabasco sauce with delight ... and if you go to India their food is on an entirely different level compared to our Tabasco sauce.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 03 2008 at 04:21
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Points: 10261 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 05:36
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ If that's not the greatest insult you could possibly make to the musicians, then I don't know what is.


BTW: The flaw in your analogy is of course that double bass drumming is not like the salt in a dish. Change it to pepper or chili, and it suddenly makes much more sense. Some people will not eat hot meals at all ... as soon as they taste the chili, they complain about it being too hot. Other might drink Tabasco sauce with delight ... and if you go to India their food is on an entirely different level compared to our Tabasco sauce.

It is meant as an insult, Mike, since they insult my ears. Little boys exercising puberty rites.
As to liking a great bandwith of music: I certainly do; I listen to Gamelan music, classic Indian music, African music, Chinese music - I definitely am not narrow-minded. I even found the odd Prog Metal I like. But as a drummer I find it extremely tasteless to use double bass drum; you will never convince me of it. It is nothing but a gimmick. Gimmicks are ok if they are used with scarcity, which means once or twice over the years. A Micky Mouse voice is a gimmick too. But just as one would not want to listen to a Micky Mouse voice all the time, I detest the permanent use of double bass drumming.


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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 06:38
Friede. Mike - as valuable as your opinions are, please keep the discussion civilized. 'Little boys' read this forum as well. There's always the choice of not having your ears insulted by simply pressing the stop button. Thanks.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 06:45
@Angelo: Yes you're right, it makes no sense to continue the discussion on that level ... it's off topic anyway.

@BaldFriede: I'm not trying to convince you of double bass drumming or any other technique you don't like. I'm merely irritated by your hateful and insulting attitude towards the musicians and their fans. Please remember that they're not responsible for what happened to you. And FYI: I don't think that open-mindedness is defined by how many different styles we enjoy ... it's defined by how we deal with the styles we don't like.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 03 2008 at 07:11
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Points: 10261 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 07:12
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

@Angelo: Yes you're right, it makes no sense to continue the discussion on that level ... it's off topic anyway.

@BaldFriede: I'm not trying to convince you of double bass drumming or any other technique you don't like. I'm merely digusted by your hateful and insulting attitude towards the musicians and their fans. Please remember that they're not responsible for what happened to you. And FYI: I don't think that open-mindedness is defined by how many different styles we enjoy ... it's defined by how we deal with the styles we don't like.

I am not hateful towards the musicians, I just can't take them seriously if they repeat a gimmick over and over again. And I am definitely not hateful towards their fans. I may wonder about their taste, but I am pretty sure people wonder about mine too.
But I agree: The discussion is fruitless, so I will refrain from it.


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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 07:21
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Most of my favorite guitarists are able to play very fast or even have a reputation for frequently doing so, yet they also play slowly or generally have an eclectic style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QO_Q4l8ynA (Steve Vai, playing slowly)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8eouDOsUOM  (Eric Johnson, who normally doesn't play ultra-fast - yet this song is one of the most difficult ones to play because of the speed)
 
Steve Vai playing slow? Not only can he play at blistering pace, I think Vai, Satch and Buckethead, to name just a few show just how their range of technique can let them play with just as much emotion slow as they fast. This is where having so much technique can come into play. Say we have David Gilmour, great player, well known for writing memorable melodic solos you can sing, soulful, and understandably, a hero to many. But what happens if he wants to express something more complex with the guitar? He wont be able too. Not only can Satch, Vai, Buckethead (again, to name a few), play slow, controlled and with soul, they can play fast, controlled and with soul. The emotions that come from a passionate fast flurry of notes, has a totally different feeling/emotion or set of emotions/feelings, than playing slowly does. Sometimes, though hard to believe from some, but I'm sure MikeEnRegalia will understand what I'm talking about, it's the fastest note flurries in a song that can be what brings me to tears and takes me somewhere else beautiful. It took me a while to get to this stage, but once you start becoming a shred guitarist yourself, you open up your ears to the sheer beauty and passion of playing fast.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 07:54
^ quite true. A good example of what you're describing is Joe Satriani's Satch Boogie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzQb79IhoRE

What I mean is the fast tapping middle section. To some it may just be a flurry mess, but in fact there's a simple underlying melody (played by the tapping finger) which gives meaning to the part. The key is to be able to play the whole section with the focus on that melody, with the additional notes as an "embellishment", sort of like a combination of pedal tone and arpeggio.





Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 03 2008 at 07:58
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 08:33

Another thing I cannot stress the importance of enough when you listen to a shredding part, stop trying to over analyse each individual note ( I admit i still do that, but i generally do that after i have listened to something before and say, want to analyse the song or learn how to play it, but normally I just listen for the joy of music). Vai, Satch and others, when they play, I doubt they consciously think about every note in a fast run. Instead, I'm sure they see the fast run holistically,  as a complete phrase, which is exactly what I hear and that is because that is what makes sense to the ear. If it didn't communicate something to me, if it really was just a meaningless blur of notes, I wouldn't enjoy it, because music is about expression. And when it come to expression on the guitar, I personally think the hard work and hours the true virtuosos have put in has paid off, their reward being able to express the deepest and most meaningful feelings, and really, as many emotions/feelings as they want to.



Edited by HughesJB4 - February 03 2008 at 08:33
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2008 at 08:57
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ If that's not the greatest insult you could possibly make to the musicians, then I don't know what is.


BTW: The flaw in your analogy is of course that double bass drumming is not like the salt in a dish. Change it to pepper or chili, and it suddenly makes much more sense. Some people will not eat hot meals at all ... as soon as they taste the chili, they complain about it being too hot. Other might drink Tabasco sauce with delight ... and if you go to India their food is on an entirely different level compared to our Tabasco sauce.

It is meant as an insult, Mike, since they insult my ears. Little boys exercising puberty rites.
As to liking a great bandwith of music: I certainly do; I listen to Gamelan music, classic Indian music, African music, Chinese music - I definitely am not narrow-minded. I even found the odd Prog Metal I like. But as a drummer I find it extremely tasteless to use double bass drum; you will never convince me of it. It is nothing but a gimmick. Gimmicks are ok if they are used with scarcity, which means once or twice over the years. A Micky Mouse voice is a gimmick too. But just as one would not want to listen to a Micky Mouse voice all the time, I detest the permanent use of double bass drumming.


When double bass drum kits came available a lot of impressive rock and jazz drummers bought and used them: Moon, Baker, Hiseman, Mitchell - not a gimmick rather fulfilling a need at that time?


Edited by Dick Heath - February 03 2008 at 08:57
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