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darkshade View Drop Down
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 17:54
whats everyone's opinion on Omar from The Mars Volta? he's obviously not the best guitarists but definitly makes good riffs and writes really well thought out music
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 07:29
Originally posted by 1vic 1vic wrote:

I only keep the first Yngwie's album. I guess, I have better taste... just kidding. Smile
HughesJB4 said: (except his sweep picking remains as sloppy as ever).
I am not trying to be annoying I just want to  make sure if I am loosing it or you are missing something because I didn't find anything that could be considered sloppy in Vai's  technique. Could you be so kind and point me to the right piece where his sloppiness sticks out the most I would really appreciate it. I think I have all his albums except Zappa's period.
Thank you HughesJ4B
 
I assume you own all the G3 DVDs. Put on Live in Tokyo, and go to 1:09:52, (i was using Cyberlink PowerDVD on the 0.5x speed setting), where Vai does 3 sweep picking patterns in his 4 bar solo spot. A friend of mine while watching it for the first time cringed at how sloppy Vai's sweeps were. My father also remarked how the sweeps were not fitting in the musical context. I agree with both these points. I watch this DVD about 10-15 times a month, so it's all pretty well ingrained into my memory. And this is just one example of his sloppy sweeps, keep listening to other works of his and you will find more for sure.
On the first two DVDs ,  Vai and Satch had the best guitar performances in the jam IMHO, while the 3rd guitarist in Live in Concert and Live in Denver (Eric Johnson and Malmsteen respectively) always came off second best to Vai and Satch.
For live in Tokyo, I found myself having to hand it over to Petrucci/Satch this time round. Vai just didn't seem his best that night, unfortunate given how amazing he was on the Live in Denver jams.
 
 
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding ... to me saying that someone's playing is sloppy "as ever" or to be stuck in the 80s constitutes bashing and simply doesn't makes sense to me when applied to Vai. Even in the 80s his playing was exceptional and hardly comparable to typical guitarists of the time. For example listen to Eat Em And Smile and compare it to 1984. Or listen to the Alcatraz album he played on and compare it to their albums with Yngwie, or even the Whitesnake album where he merely acted as a studio guitarist, playing parts which were already written for Vandenberg ... to everything he adds his own, unique style. If Vai sounds too much like 80s shred then only because he *defined* most of it, together with Satch of course.Big%20smile 
 
I have always found his sweeping abilities to often be the major sticking point with what is an other very technically adept guitarist. Another thing I have noticed is that Vai's fingering for legato patterns seem to always look slightly sloppy, compared to say, Satch, Shawn Lane or Holdsworth or , but Vai manages to pull it off almost as cleanly as these guys, so aesthetically i can complain about Vai's legato, it has almost always been pulled off great.
Vai's techique while some of it has remained somewhat 80s, his use of the Fretless and Sustainer are certainly not, not to mention the song Building The Church displays a new tapping technique we had not heard from him prior to that, so certainly that was a technique improvement (although it's higly probably someone stumbled across that style of tapping in the late 80s or sometime in the 90s, but that is just a guess really, and anyone with any evidence to back that up or dispute that, feel free to comment).
I have always felt that if their were two sweep pickers of the 80s who knew not only how to do it cleanly, but with a lot of emotional content, it was the mighty pair of Marty Friedman and Jason Becker.
 
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 08:07
^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 09:16
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?

the faster you play the more sloppy you have to be. there is a limit to what can be done with speed. which is why speed does not impress me much musically. I can play piano at breathtaking speed, but what's the point of that? you can't play those semiquavers cleanly once you get beyond a certain speed. and you definitely can't put expression into them that way.
when I was younger I also thought that speed was everything and had a similar approach as those slashers. however, nowadays I look at it as a bit puerile. it is like "who can piss the highest?"


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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 09:23
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?
 
Well as a guitarist myself, my tapping, alternate picking and legato skills are all more advanced than my sweeping technique (the only sweep picking pattern I can do cleanly are 3 string sweeps). Legato in fact came the most natural to me, and I've been able to hit up to 16 notes per second in legato. Sweeping is only just a fraction of what features in Vai's and it just happened to be one thing I noticed he was not consistent at executing cleanly everytime. And would I like Friedman or Becker for their sweep picking abilities alone? If that were the case I would like Fancesco Fareri, but I honestly never made it past the 1 min mark of any of his songs, because it sounded so cold and emotionless and his vibrato just made me cringe and press stop. Why do i actually like Becker, Friedman, Vai, Satch, Shawn Lane, et al? Because those guys had the complete package : Fantastic/Innovative compositions, astounding technical skill, the ability to bring out so many different emotions in their playing and compostion, and of course great ability to improvise.
 
As for the Malmsteen/Vai comparision, i think Malmsteen's vibrato is more consistent, i.e never out of tune. But on the other hand, Vai can vary his vibrato between shallow and wide a lot more. Malmsteen's sweeps are as clean as freshly polished metal, his alternate picking faultless. I can imagine though, through Malmsteen into the pit with Vai in a game of legato and two handed tapping, I bet once Malmsteen goes beyond simple 3 finger tapping (think Eruption) and some more of all over the place legato, and I almost totally guarantee Vai will be the man.
As for who is a better musician overall? Well I have seen both live (Malmsteen on the 16th of November 2006, the day before my 18 birthdayTongue) and G3 on their first Aussie tour (Vai, Satch and Petrucci). Both were superb nights. But G3 won hands down.
I can listen to Petrucci, Vai, Satch, Lane, Friedman, Becker and Buckethead (and many more that don't instantly come to mind) on a daily basis. Malmsteen might get a listen 10 times a month if his lucky.
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Points: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 16:40
Mohammed Suicmez of Necrophagist. So tight, so fast, so creative... just technically sound!
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 16:46
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?

the faster you play the more sloppy you have to be. there is a limit to what can be done with speed. which is why speed does not impress me much musically. I can play piano at breathtaking speed, but what's the point of that? you can't play those semiquavers cleanly once you get beyond a certain speed. and you definitely can't put expression into them that way.
when I was younger I also thought that speed was everything and had a similar approach as those slashers. however, nowadays I look at it as a bit puerile. it is like "who can piss the highest?"


I'm really, really glad that I can enjoy so much more music. Fast -> bad. Heavy -> bad. Metal -> bad. Double Bass -> bad. Growling -> bad. Does anybody else see a pattern here?

And for the record: Yes, you can play fast *and* emotional/tasteful at the same time. The faster -> the more sloppy ... yes, perhaps as a rule of thumb it's true, but there are players who *can* play really fast and aren't sloppy at all. And this is indeed what distinguishes a true virtuoso from other players who are "just" very good. They control their instrument, and not the other way round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1qYCW7KqQ

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Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 28 2008 at 16:52
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 11:14
Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Satriani and Paco D'Lucia come to mind. These three blow my mind, anybody agree with me on this?
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Points: 3659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 14:00
Tony MacAlpine's worth a mention; great technique and speed but also plays with a lot of melody. He's just as good on Keyboards too!
 
I'm also a George Lynch fan. He hasn't got the speed of the Malmsteens of this word but a very tasty player nonetheless.
 
But I tip my hat to Eddie Van Halen, the godfather of shredders.
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 15:12
George Benson........ no doubt about that.
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Points: 10094 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 15:18
Originally posted by cynthiasmallet cynthiasmallet wrote:

Herman li from Dragonforce



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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 04:16
Originally posted by Hazlehurst Hazlehurst wrote:

Mohammed Suicmez of Necrophagist. So tight, so fast, so creative... just technically sound!
 
i'm a fan of Necrophagist as well, and Suicmez is certainly a good guitarist, although I wouldn't go so far to call him great. While certainly not lacking in emotion, his solos aren't the most emotive IMO, and not even the most creative either. But I can't argue his technically good, very tight and clean chops and great riffs to boot.
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 05:15
Originally posted by Nightfly Nightfly wrote:

Tony MacAlpine's worth a mention; great technique and speed but also plays with a lot of melody. He's just as good on Keyboards too!
 
I'm also a George Lynch fan. He hasn't got the speed of the Malmsteens of this word but a very tasty player nonetheless.
 
But I tip my hat to Eddie Van Halen, the godfather of shredders.
 
Macalpine is a fantastic player, loads of feeling, beastly technique, and a stunning keyboard player to boot. George, great legato attack, and more willing to be tasteful than Malmsteen. EVH, as a guitar player a hero of mine,  great feeling but the band itself, not so much a fan of anything past Van Halen II, too poppy and corny for my tastes, but EVH being in the band can elevate the status of the bands poppier moments a little bit anyway.
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 05:24
Originally posted by Nightfly Nightfly wrote:

 
But I tip my hat to Eddie Van Halen, the godfather of shredders.


ergo Allan Holdsworth is the godfather of godfathers -  EvH, Satriani  and others have openly acknowledged him
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 10:18
Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Satriani and Paco D'Lucia come to mind. These three blow my mind, anybody agree with me on this?
 
Emmanuel is a stunner on the acoustic guitar, absolutely blistering when he wants too, but always knows where to leave room as wellSmile 
Words are generally not enough to speak of how important Satch has been on my own playing, and musical thinking. I saw him at G3 on their first Aussie, and he was in great form. Paco D'Lucia, I'm yet to hear.
 
Originally posted by cynthiasmallet cynthiasmallet wrote:

Herman li from Dragonforce
I saw DF live last year in May. Herman Li is about half as accurate and precise live than he is in the studio. Onstage beer drinking doesn't help the cause either.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 11:03
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?

the faster you play the more sloppy you have to be. there is a limit to what can be done with speed. which is why speed does not impress me much musically. I can play piano at breathtaking speed, but what's the point of that? you can't play those semiquavers cleanly once you get beyond a certain speed. and you definitely can't put expression into them that way.
when I was younger I also thought that speed was everything and had a similar approach as those slashers. however, nowadays I look at it as a bit puerile. it is like "who can piss the highest?"


I'm really, really glad that I can enjoy so much more music. Fast -> bad. Heavy -> bad. Metal -> bad. Double Bass -> bad. Growling -> bad. Does anybody else see a pattern here?

And for the record: Yes, you can play fast *and* emotional/tasteful at the same time. The faster -> the more sloppy ... yes, perhaps as a rule of thumb it's true, but there are players who *can* play really fast and aren't sloppy at all. And this is indeed what distinguishes a true virtuoso from other players who are "just" very good. They control their instrument, and not the other way round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1qYCW7KqQ

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I don't have anything against fast playing. as I said, I can be fast as hell as well. but you definitely lose possibilities for expression the faster you play; expression simply costs time. I think that the product of speed times expression is a constant: the faster you play the less possibilities you have to put expression into a note. a vibrato, for example, takes time.
it is not that I never race across the keyboard, but I am very much aware what I am losing when I do, and that is not because I lack virtuosity.
and neither is fast play is totally expressionless, it just reduces your possibilities for expression


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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 11:22
^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7rJAEvA-vk

Some techniques for expression become useless/impossible when playing fast, I give you that. But at the same time other possibilities open up. For example, if you can play ultra-fast parts as fluently and effortlessly as Eddie demonstrates here ... Big%20smile
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 11:27
And another one, a bit more impressive musically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9-XN3mXXtI
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 12:40
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7rJAEvA-vk

Some techniques for expression become useless/impossible when playing fast, I give you that. But at the same time other possibilities open up. For example, if you can play ultra-fast parts as fluently and effortlessly as Eddie demonstrates here ... Big%20smile

well, that video pretty much demonstrates what I mean. he is most expressive whenever he slows down, or on the last note of a fast run, with the only exception perhaps being the tremolos


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Points: 1014 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 13:08
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

So, from your knowledge of the instrument or from what you hear and say "how the hell will I do that", who is the best guitarist in terms of TECHNIQUE< SPEED, FINGERING, and all of that??


not necessarily in order :
John McLaughlin...
Joe Pass...
Chet Atkins...

these guys for starters


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