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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 09:50

I appreciate the sincerity of the debate here, but we in danger of getting bogged down in a religious debate and the views of Neal Morse in the prog music area.

Can we stick to the original topic please, which is a much wider discussion about Christian Prog and religion in prog in general. Detailed observations on religion per se are better reserved for the non-music areas of the forum.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:29
On the subject of ELP First Impression lyrics, were they not written by Sinfield?... and isn´t Sinfield jewish? That must certainly be of relevance, right? I mean, in the first place, I don´t see why a jew would say anything good about Jesus (not that they do otherwise by any means!), so when mentioning Jesus it´s either with incredulity or... I don´t know, humor maybe¿ Of course I can be wrong, as this might not be the case, and Sinfield might not be jewish after all... anyone knows if this is the case?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:32
OK, I'll try again.  Anyone familiar with Rick Wakeman's In the Beginning or the Resident's Wormwood?  Wakeman's is certainly Christian.  Wormwood is more old Teastament.  Wakeman's is more mellow to the point of being wimpy.  And the Resident's one is almost diametrically opposite in it's creepiness....
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:55
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by SoundsofSeasons SoundsofSeasons wrote:

 
I don't really understand why you are offended by this album. Obviously you are not trying to deny the corruption the catholic church during the time before the Reformation, so why are you offended? I guess maybe because he (Neal Morse) layed on the blame a little thick and made the preists to seem evil? O.K. yah maybe, and yes i had a hunch it would be pretty controversial. What im trying to say is I understand where your coming from, being offended by the portrayal of evil Neal gives of the catholic church, but you have to at least admit that it gets the point across. If he had sugar coated it, it probably would have sounded like he was beating around the bush, or some people may not even had understood it at all.
 
Don't pretend that's just a reference against some acts of the catholic Church of those days, is a clear attack against the institution of the Papacy and all our beliefs.
 
What would Morse and his followers think if another band made a song with this Nazi lyrics:
 
Quote

Martin Luther
'On the Jews and their Lies'
Chapter 15

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, nowthat we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophetsspeak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we mustpractice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about,blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), i twould be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

 

 
 
Probably would be accused of bigots and attacking his beliefs, without remembering this words where said by the same guy he praises.
 
So Mr Morse's preaching and brainwashing is totally negative IMHO, Rock must be free and not a tool to convince people, remember, once you started something as Mr. Morse did, you can expect any reaction, and we don't want that.
 
 
edit: Oh and by the way, where did this offense come from anyway? I was talking about how I enjoyed both secular and christian music, and you somehow came up with the fact that I was supporting an album that supposedly attacks the catholic church. Taken completely out of context.
 
The concept of Sola Scriptura itself is the denial of all outr beliefs, I would react the same if it was directed Catholic or Jewish propaganda with a costume of Rock,  it's a principle not the attack itself.
 
Christian Rock is negative IMO and shouldn't exist as Catholic or Jewish Prog shouldn't exist.
 
That's my opinion and I stand on it.
 
Iván
 

Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes!Wink
I for one am Christian Catholic, as I was baptized, but I don´t feel very close to this religious, I think I have my own "spiritual" beliefs, so it´s natural I don´t get offended by Morse lyrics, but at the same time, if I was more into cathlicism I don´t think I would be offended either... the man has a point, the Papacy was (I really don´t feel I should talk about the now) incredibly corrupted and did what ever they feel like it for centurys, and that´s no secret either, so what´s so wrong with talking, or singing about it? And if it is an "attack" to our days Catholic institution well, let him do it, as you said yourself "Rock must be free".

Ah and, and I mean no disrespect, if he attacks the Papacy its an attack to all your beliefs? I´m no expert, but I would think that there is more to the Catholic religion than just the Papacy, so why does that attack ALL your beliefs?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 11:42
Please see my post above!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 11:58
Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia? Or don't they count in this very interesting conversation?
Prog is music for the mind
Hear your Orphaned child!
Check out my bands myspace site: www.myspace.com/equinox17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 12:45
Originally posted by Space Dimentia Space Dimentia wrote:

Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia?
 
So far.  I loved Eric Clayton's voice on The Human Equation, but have found Saviour Machine to be almost a bit too intense for my taste.  I've heard great things about Narnia but never had the chance to give them a try.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 13:39
Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:


Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes!Wink
 
I will accept Bob's request, so will only talk about the central issue.
 
Yes Rock must be free, but IMO Catholic, Christian, Jewish or any other religious Rock is aything but free.
 
I believe that used as an instrument of evangelism is a tool,. an instrument, noi different than a TV conmmercial trying to convince you of buying a determined soda because it's "better" than all the others.
 
And yes he or anybody may write about what they want, satanic Rock is a prove of that and there's nothing we can do to stop it, but we are also allowed strongly disagree and express that disagreement.
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2007 at 00:57
Originally posted by nightlamp nightlamp wrote:

Originally posted by Ty1020 Ty1020 wrote:

Although he's not always widely considered a prog artist or a Christian artist, I'd strongly recommend checking out Sufjan Stevens.


Sufjan Stevens is great.  His lyric writing is very interesting.  Definitely Christian, but If that sort of Christian, experimental take on indie folk-rock is appealing, I'd also recommend Anathallo (the "marching band gone wild").  Jennifer Knapp is another Christian singer-songwriter-type whose most recent album (The Way I Am) might be of interest to prog fans on the strength of its rhythm section (Tony Levin and Vinnie Colaiuta)...


Anathallo! I've never heard anyone mention them on here before. Great band and very prog but still Christian!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2007 at 09:07
Originally posted by Space Dimentia Space Dimentia wrote:

Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia? Or don't they count in this very interesting conversation?
 
I mentioned Orphaned Land some posts above.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2007 at 22:19
"Lay Down" by the Strawbs is about the 23rd Psalm.
 
And I'm surprised that there's no recording of this song by a Christian Band!
Thank God for Kids who love Obscure Things.
Lee Hazelwood (1929-2007)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 11:28
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

  there is no duty to share your faith.. only LIVE by it...  
 
WooHoo! Total agreement with that.
 
Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to proclaim your beliefs in music, go ahead. I probably won't buy it, not that it matters. Does it make Prog worse? Well, to me, yes. I can't stand Neal Morse's pro-Christian rants, and that is a real shame because the music is decent.
 
I have never heard Neal Morse "rant" on any his cd's. What I have heard is him telling a story about what he believes. By the way, I am atheist, not christian.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:26
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK, I'll try again.  Anyone familiar with Rick Wakeman's In the Beginning or the Resident's Wormwood?  Wakeman's is certainly Christian.  Wormwood is more old Teastament.  Wakeman's is more mellow to the point of being wimpy.  And the Resident's one is almost diametrically opposite in it's creepiness....
 
Wormwood ................................There's that word again.  What does it mean?
 
My interpretation is that it's a herb, only found in the Ukraine.  The word has a Ukrainian translation.  Its called Chernobyl.   Does the word sound familiar?
 
The bible mentions this herb.   It says: -
 
Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood.  A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. 
 
The interpretaion is in the ears of the receiver, but to me the interpretation is clear. It is no accident that the word Wormword is used.
 
Thank you Rick (Wakeman).  Wormwood seems more New Testament to me, but I am not unhappy if others disagree with me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:32
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:


Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes!Wink
 
I will accept Bob's request, so will only talk about the central issue.
 
Yes Rock must be free, but IMO Catholic, Christian, Jewish or any other religious Rock is aything but free.
 
I believe that used as an instrument of evangelism is a tool,. an instrument, noi different than a TV conmmercial trying to convince you of buying a determined soda because it's "better" than all the others.
 
And yes he or anybody may write about what they want, satanic Rock is a prove of that and there's nothing we can do to stop it, but we are also allowed strongly disagree and express that disagreement.
 
Iván
 
I agree that music must be 'free', but still don't understand how focusing on God isn't free. For them and for anyone willing to listen, it's freedom. You've used that word before and I guess I need further explanation on what you mean by 'free'.
 
Just curious.
 
E
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:48
Originally posted by E-Dub E-Dub wrote:

 
I agree that music must be 'free', but still don't understand how focusing on God isn't free. For them and for anyone willing to listen, it's freedom. You've used that word before and I guess I need further explanation on what you mean by 'free'.
 
Just curious.
 
E
 
Not being used a tool of conversion and Evangelism in this case.
 
God is a good issue to write about,  but trying to convince others that our belief is the real and only or that you must follow it, is no different than telling people drink Pepsi and not Coca Cola in a jingle.
 
That's my honest opinion.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 22 2007 at 16:49
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 17:36
That clears it up for me. Not sure I agree, but we're all different and I respect  your opinion, Ivan.
 
E
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 19:01
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God, into an image made like to corruptible man.......
 
                                                                       Romans 1: 22
 
 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed forever, AMEN....
 
                                                                      Romans 1: 25
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 19:07
^ It's kind of hard to believe fully in quotes from a book which relies only on itself to prove its truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 20:10
Originally posted by JesusisLord JesusisLord wrote:

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God, into an image made like to corruptible man.......
 
                                                                       Romans 1: 22
 
 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed forever, AMEN....
 
                                                                      Romans 1: 25
 
It's usual in some people to take the Bible out of context:
 
Quote
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Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
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Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
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Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
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Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
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Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
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Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
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Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
Romans 1 is specifiically directed to the Greeks and their unrightful behaviour that included fornication and homosexuality, an issue about which I won't talk but is not the case.
 
Quote

23. And changed-or "exchanged."

the glory of the uncorruptible God into-or "for"

an image . like to corruptible man-The allusion here is doubtless to the Greek worship, and the apostle may have had in his mind those exquisite chisellings of the human form which lay so profusely beneath and around him as he stood on Mars' Hill; and "beheld their devotions." (See on [2180]Ac 17:29). But as if that had not been a deep enough degradation of the living God, there was found "a lower deep" still.

and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and to creeping things-referring now to the Egyptian and Oriental worship. In the face of these plain declarations of the descent of man's religious belief from loftier to ever lower and more debasing conceptions of the Supreme Being, there are expositors of this very Epistle (as Reiche and Jowett), who, believing neither in any fall from primeval innocence, nor in the noble traces of that innocence which lingered even after the fall and were only by degrees obliterated by wilful violence to the dictates of conscience, maintain that man's religious history has been all along a struggle to rise, from the lowest forms of nature worship, suited to the childhood of our race, into that which is more rational and spiritual.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

 
It's easy to know a book by memory, it's harder to understand it.
 
But our friend Jesus is Saviour is a prove of what I'm saying, he comes to a Prog Music site almost exclusively to evangelize people.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 22 2007 at 20:18
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 02:50
secular prog pwns
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