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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 19:07
^ It's kind of hard to believe fully in quotes from a book which relies only on itself to prove its truth.
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Points: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 19:01
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God, into an image made like to corruptible man.......
 
                                                                       Romans 1: 22
 
 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more then the Creator, who is blessed forever, AMEN....
 
                                                                      Romans 1: 25
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11
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Points: 7910 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 17:36
That clears it up for me. Not sure I agree, but we're all different and I respect  your opinion, Ivan.
 
E
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:48
Originally posted by E-Dub E-Dub wrote:

 
I agree that music must be 'free', but still don't understand how focusing on God isn't free. For them and for anyone willing to listen, it's freedom. You've used that word before and I guess I need further explanation on what you mean by 'free'.
 
Just curious.
 
E
 
Not being used a tool of conversion and Evangelism in this case.
 
God is a good issue to write about,  but trying to convince others that our belief is the real and only or that you must follow it, is no different than telling people drink Pepsi and not Coca Cola in a jingle.
 
That's my honest opinion.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 22 2007 at 16:49
            
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Points: 7910 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:32
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:


Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes!Wink
 
I will accept Bob's request, so will only talk about the central issue.
 
Yes Rock must be free, but IMO Catholic, Christian, Jewish or any other religious Rock is aything but free.
 
I believe that used as an instrument of evangelism is a tool,. an instrument, noi different than a TV conmmercial trying to convince you of buying a determined soda because it's "better" than all the others.
 
And yes he or anybody may write about what they want, satanic Rock is a prove of that and there's nothing we can do to stop it, but we are also allowed strongly disagree and express that disagreement.
 
Iván
 
I agree that music must be 'free', but still don't understand how focusing on God isn't free. For them and for anyone willing to listen, it's freedom. You've used that word before and I guess I need further explanation on what you mean by 'free'.
 
Just curious.
 
E
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Points: 164 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 16:26
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK, I'll try again.  Anyone familiar with Rick Wakeman's In the Beginning or the Resident's Wormwood?  Wakeman's is certainly Christian.  Wormwood is more old Teastament.  Wakeman's is more mellow to the point of being wimpy.  And the Resident's one is almost diametrically opposite in it's creepiness....
 
Wormwood ................................There's that word again.  What does it mean?
 
My interpretation is that it's a herb, only found in the Ukraine.  The word has a Ukrainian translation.  Its called Chernobyl.   Does the word sound familiar?
 
The bible mentions this herb.   It says: -
 
Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood.  A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. 
 
The interpretaion is in the ears of the receiver, but to me the interpretation is clear. It is no accident that the word Wormword is used.
 
Thank you Rick (Wakeman).  Wormwood seems more New Testament to me, but I am not unhappy if others disagree with me.
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Points: 824 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2007 at 11:28
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

  there is no duty to share your faith.. only LIVE by it...  
 
WooHoo! Total agreement with that.
 
Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to proclaim your beliefs in music, go ahead. I probably won't buy it, not that it matters. Does it make Prog worse? Well, to me, yes. I can't stand Neal Morse's pro-Christian rants, and that is a real shame because the music is decent.
 
I have never heard Neal Morse "rant" on any his cd's. What I have heard is him telling a story about what he believes. By the way, I am atheist, not christian.
 
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Points: 26 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2007 at 22:19
"Lay Down" by the Strawbs is about the 23rd Psalm.
 
And I'm surprised that there's no recording of this song by a Christian Band!
Thank God for Kids who love Obscure Things.
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Points: 2506 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2007 at 09:07
Originally posted by Space Dimentia Space Dimentia wrote:

Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia? Or don't they count in this very interesting conversation?
 
I mentioned Orphaned Land some posts above.Wink
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Points: 354 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2007 at 00:57
Originally posted by nightlamp nightlamp wrote:

Originally posted by Ty1020 Ty1020 wrote:

Although he's not always widely considered a prog artist or a Christian artist, I'd strongly recommend checking out Sufjan Stevens.


Sufjan Stevens is great.  His lyric writing is very interesting.  Definitely Christian, but If that sort of Christian, experimental take on indie folk-rock is appealing, I'd also recommend Anathallo (the "marching band gone wild").  Jennifer Knapp is another Christian singer-songwriter-type whose most recent album (The Way I Am) might be of interest to prog fans on the strength of its rhythm section (Tony Levin and Vinnie Colaiuta)...


Anathallo! I've never heard anyone mention them on here before. Great band and very prog but still Christian!
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 13:39
Originally posted by el böthy el böthy wrote:


Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes!Wink
 
I will accept Bob's request, so will only talk about the central issue.
 
Yes Rock must be free, but IMO Catholic, Christian, Jewish or any other religious Rock is aything but free.
 
I believe that used as an instrument of evangelism is a tool,. an instrument, noi different than a TV conmmercial trying to convince you of buying a determined soda because it's "better" than all the others.
 
And yes he or anybody may write about what they want, satanic Rock is a prove of that and there's nothing we can do to stop it, but we are also allowed strongly disagree and express that disagreement.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 444 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 12:45
Originally posted by Space Dimentia Space Dimentia wrote:

Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia?
 
So far.  I loved Eric Clayton's voice on The Human Equation, but have found Saviour Machine to be almost a bit too intense for my taste.  I've heard great things about Narnia but never had the chance to give them a try.
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Points: 440 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 11:58
Man am I the only one who has mentioned Saviour Machine, Orphaned Land and Narnia? Or don't they count in this very interesting conversation?
Prog is music for the mind
Hear your Orphaned child!
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 11:42
Please see my post above!!
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:55
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by SoundsofSeasons SoundsofSeasons wrote:

 
I don't really understand why you are offended by this album. Obviously you are not trying to deny the corruption the catholic church during the time before the Reformation, so why are you offended? I guess maybe because he (Neal Morse) layed on the blame a little thick and made the preists to seem evil? O.K. yah maybe, and yes i had a hunch it would be pretty controversial. What im trying to say is I understand where your coming from, being offended by the portrayal of evil Neal gives of the catholic church, but you have to at least admit that it gets the point across. If he had sugar coated it, it probably would have sounded like he was beating around the bush, or some people may not even had understood it at all.
 
Don't pretend that's just a reference against some acts of the catholic Church of those days, is a clear attack against the institution of the Papacy and all our beliefs.
 
What would Morse and his followers think if another band made a song with this Nazi lyrics:
 
Quote

Martin Luther
'On the Jews and their Lies'
Chapter 15

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, nowthat we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophetsspeak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we mustpractice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about,blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), i twould be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

 

 
 
Probably would be accused of bigots and attacking his beliefs, without remembering this words where said by the same guy he praises.
 
So Mr Morse's preaching and brainwashing is totally negative IMHO, Rock must be free and not a tool to convince people, remember, once you started something as Mr. Morse did, you can expect any reaction, and we don't want that.
 
 
edit: Oh and by the way, where did this offense come from anyway? I was talking about how I enjoyed both secular and christian music, and you somehow came up with the fact that I was supporting an album that supposedly attacks the catholic church. Taken completely out of context.
 
The concept of Sola Scriptura itself is the denial of all outr beliefs, I would react the same if it was directed Catholic or Jewish propaganda with a costume of Rock,  it's a principle not the attack itself.
 
Christian Rock is negative IMO and shouldn't exist as Catholic or Jewish Prog shouldn't exist.
 
That's my opinion and I stand on it.
 
Iván
 

Of course, so let the man write what ever he likes!Wink
I for one am Christian Catholic, as I was baptized, but I don´t feel very close to this religious, I think I have my own "spiritual" beliefs, so it´s natural I don´t get offended by Morse lyrics, but at the same time, if I was more into cathlicism I don´t think I would be offended either... the man has a point, the Papacy was (I really don´t feel I should talk about the now) incredibly corrupted and did what ever they feel like it for centurys, and that´s no secret either, so what´s so wrong with talking, or singing about it? And if it is an "attack" to our days Catholic institution well, let him do it, as you said yourself "Rock must be free".

Ah and, and I mean no disrespect, if he attacks the Papacy its an attack to all your beliefs? I´m no expert, but I would think that there is more to the Catholic religion than just the Papacy, so why does that attack ALL your beliefs?
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:32
OK, I'll try again.  Anyone familiar with Rick Wakeman's In the Beginning or the Resident's Wormwood?  Wakeman's is certainly Christian.  Wormwood is more old Teastament.  Wakeman's is more mellow to the point of being wimpy.  And the Resident's one is almost diametrically opposite in it's creepiness....
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 10:29
On the subject of ELP First Impression lyrics, were they not written by Sinfield?... and isn´t Sinfield jewish? That must certainly be of relevance, right? I mean, in the first place, I don´t see why a jew would say anything good about Jesus (not that they do otherwise by any means!), so when mentioning Jesus it´s either with incredulity or... I don´t know, humor maybe¿ Of course I can be wrong, as this might not be the case, and Sinfield might not be jewish after all... anyone knows if this is the case?
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 09:50

I appreciate the sincerity of the debate here, but we in danger of getting bogged down in a religious debate and the views of Neal Morse in the prog music area.

Can we stick to the original topic please, which is a much wider discussion about Christian Prog and religion in prog in general. Detailed observations on religion per se are better reserved for the non-music areas of the forum.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 08:36
Originally posted by SoundsofSeasons SoundsofSeasons wrote:

 
I don't really understand why you are offended by this album. Obviously you are not trying to deny the corruption the catholic church during the time before the Reformation, so why are you offended? I guess maybe because he (Neal Morse) layed on the blame a little thick and made the preists to seem evil? O.K. yah maybe, and yes i had a hunch it would be pretty controversial. What im trying to say is I understand where your coming from, being offended by the portrayal of evil Neal gives of the catholic church, but you have to at least admit that it gets the point across. If he had sugar coated it, it probably would have sounded like he was beating around the bush, or some people may not even had understood it at all.
 
Don't pretend that's just a reference against some acts of the catholic Church of those days, is a clear attack against the institution of the Papacy and all our beliefs.
 
What would Morse and his followers think if another band made a song with this Nazi lyrics:
 
Quote

Martin Luther
'On the Jews and their Lies'
Chapter 15

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, nowthat we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophetsspeak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we mustpractice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about,blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), i twould be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

 

 
 
Probably would be accused of bigots and attacking his beliefs, without remembering this words where said by the same guy he praises.
 
So Mr Morse's preaching and brainwashing is totally negative IMHO, Rock must be free and not a tool to convince people, remember, once you started something as Mr. Morse did, you can expect any reaction, and we don't want that.
 
 
edit: Oh and by the way, where did this offense come from anyway? I was talking about how I enjoyed both secular and christian music, and you somehow came up with the fact that I was supporting an album that supposedly attacks the catholic church. Taken completely out of context.
 
The concept of Sola Scriptura itself is the denial of all outr beliefs, I would react the same if it was directed Catholic or Jewish propaganda with a costume of Rock,  it's a principle not the attack itself.
 
Christian Rock is negative IMO and shouldn't exist as Catholic or Jewish Prog shouldn't exist.
 
That's my opinion and I stand on it.
 
Iván
 
            
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Points: 221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2007 at 00:45
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by SoundsofSeasons SoundsofSeasons wrote:

 
Neal Morse's Sola Scriptura is, although as i've said in a recent review not blatantly preachy, a Christian album through and through. No matter how you look at it, he is trying to get Christianity to show in his album. The end even gives you some religious idea to ponder on by saying, "God will change the world with just one willing soul. Maybe it is you he's looking for..."
 
Correction, Sola Scriptura is an album for a MINORITY of the Christianity, and OFFENSIVE  against the vast majority of Christians (of course if you consider Catholics as Christians). 
 
So, yes, people should absolutely be able to inject their world views, because even though there are many prog albums that are against christianity, there are those out there that accept it and even promote it.
 
I consider Sola Scriptura against the principles of the biggest Christian Confessions.
 
Quote God took the Promised Land and put it in my bloodstained hand
I can sell you grace for your soul or you'll burn in hell far below

I'm your priest, I'm your king, I'm a Saint
This love your enemies thing's down the drain
Tell me, do you know my name?

Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't
Look I've got great big army like a General
I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero

I'm your priest, I'm your king, I'm a Saint
This love your enemies thing's down the drain
Tell me, do you know my name?
Tell me, do you know my name?
Tell me, do you know my name?
My name...Tell me...
 
I take this as a worst insult to my beliefs than anything any atheist can say, because it comes from a Christian against other Christians, and because very rarely an Atheist has offended us in this way.
 
That's why I rather keep away of albums that promote a determined religion, if i want to listen Catholic music, i do it on Church or at my home with my family, I don't try to force the rest of the world to think like me and talking against other people's beliefs.
 
Iván
 
I don't really understand why you are offended by this album. Obviously you are not trying to deny the corruption the catholic church during the time before the Reformation, so why are you offended? I guess maybe because he (Neal Morse) layed on the blame a little thick and made the preists to seem evil? O.K. yah maybe, and yes i had a hunch it would be pretty controversial. What im trying to say is I understand where your coming from, being offended by the portrayal of evil Neal gives of the catholic church, but you have to at least admit that it gets the point across. If he had sugar coated it, it probably would have sounded like he was beating around the bush, or some people may not even had understood it at all.
 
 
edit: Oh and by the way, where did this offense come from anyway? I was talking about how I enjoyed both secular and christian music, and you somehow came up with the fact that I was supporting an album that supposedly attacks the catholic church. Taken completely out of context.


Edited by SoundsofSeasons - December 20 2007 at 00:51
1 Chronicles 13:7-9

Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.

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