Christian prog vs secular prog - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

verslibre

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 18512

Posted: December 19 2007 at 23:46

Geoff Mann recorded some great "Christian prog" tunes with Twelfth Night ("The Ceiling Speaks" and "The Collector") and afterward. I'm not much of a Neal Morse fan but ? is very good.

eBay

infandous

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447

Posted: December 19 2007 at 13:40

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

infandous wrote:

As to Ivan's comments about Sola Scirptura, I really don't think Morse is insulting other Christians. He's singing about events that took place hundreds of years ago, a time when "buying forgiveness" from the Catholic Church was quite common. That is what he is writing about, not modern day Catholics. At least, that is the impression of a non religious person (myself). Besides, I love the music. Neal has managed to create Christian music that I can actually stand to listen to, and even enjoy.

Infandious, seems you are not familiar with the constant attacks against the papacy, this is one example and it's offensive for us, I haven't heard any track attacking Luther for being a racist and an anti semite that said he would baptize all the Jewishs throwing them to the river tied to a Rock shouting I baptize you in the name of Abraham.

Actually, I am familiar with it just as I'm quite familiar with Luther's anti-semitism. I'm not trying to defend Luther by any stretch. I just don't see any attack in Morse's lyrics like you do (at least not on modern Catholicism). You do, and that is fine.

"So I'd better avoid it."

We agree on this, at least Big%20smile

Edited by infandous - December 19 2007 at 13:42

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: December 19 2007 at 11:36

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly and I myself was unaware of it will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them

Proto Nazism in my opinion but I wouldn't approve that either.

Now the attacks are one sided as always and it's not against a determined Pope, it's an attack against the institution of Papacy that is offensive to us.

Celibacy for example is still a part of our religious tradition Infandous and it's being attacked in this track, and there are worst ones, Mr Morse is using his music as a tool of propaganda and hatred against other beliefs

BTW: Raffaella made a point, concept albums about one or more determined events of the Bible are not Christian in the sense that are not made to preach, just concept albums about one book that is holy to us but just Mythology for others.

Morse is a preacher with a microphone and that disgusts me, he is free to do it, but I'm free not to buy it and to criticize that position.

So I'd better avoid it.

Mickstafa wrote:

You apparently like labels on music (which is fine); I on the other hand realize that many albums or even individual songs can be related to certain themes (in this case, Christianity). The topic starter wanted some suggestions of some prog music that was not preachy but centered around Christian ideas. So he got some.

Not true Mickstafa:

I don't label the music, the Christian Rockers have done it, some of the definitions are taken from their own pages, so it's their words, not mine.
No, the topic starter clearly asked opiinions about preaching music, I quoted before the origional post and will do it again:

Profanatio wrote:

I'm a pretty thick skinned guy and dont get offended easily at all so please dont hold back on your responses to this subject. What are your thoughts about Christian prog or any kind of prog for that matter that lyrically takes a religious point of view or even a strong political point of view. Do they have a duty to share their faith in their music or should it be left out completely?

You can't deny what is clearly written by the author, there's no room for doubts or interpretations, his point is clear, he's talking about Preching Prog and not asking for suggestions, he's asking for opinions, so I give mine.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 19 2007 at 12:01

infandous

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447

Posted: December 19 2007 at 10:10

Hmm, a hot topic Wink

Personally, I can deal with religious themes in music as long as the music is good. Just like I can often enjoy good music with, what I consider to be, bad lyrics (whether they are religious or not). But sure, the preachy stuff can get old, whether its Christian, political, what have you. But I try to focus on the music first.........if I like the lyrics that is a bonus.

As to Ivan's comments about Sola Scirptura, I really don't think Morse is insulting other Christians. He's singing about events that took place hundreds of years ago, a time when "buying forgiveness" from the Catholic Church was quite common. That is what he is writing about, not modern day Catholics. At least, that is the impression of a non religious person (myself). Besides, I love the music. Neal has managed to create Christian music that I can actually stand to listen to, and even enjoy.

But as I said, it's really about the music for me. If that appeals to me, I can usually deal with the lyrical content, even if I don't think it's any good.

Juliovp

Forum Newbie

Joined: August 18 2007
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 24

Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:32

Deathrabbit wrote:

You make some good points but I don't think Religious music automatically means it's trying to convert you. I mean how often is that gonna work, anyway? It seems all your views serve to do is black-list some good music. Oh well, agree to disagree and what not I guess. Ouch

agree with that statement.
by the way, religion is about yourself ,your life, your faith. not the music you hear

Failcore

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625

Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:21

You make some good points but I don't think Religious music automatically means it's trying to convert you. I mean how often is that gonna work, anyway? It seems all your views serve to do is black-list some good music. Oh well, agree to disagree and what not I guess. Ouch

Raff

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429

Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:15

Norbert wrote:

After Crying also have some Bible/Chriustianity related songs, but they are often in Hungarianl like A gadarai megszállott.

The flood is a coomon element in more religions, Orphaned Land's Mabool is based on it.

If I may say so, we should be careful to distinguish between a true religious message (such as in the case of Kerry Livgren or Neal Morse), and an interest in mythology, which is related to religion, but is not an object of belief. To a non-Christian (or non-Jew), the Bible is nothing more than a collection of myths with some historical episodes. The episode of the flood is a myth common to most religions, as Norbert says, but not necessarily something that bears any relation to faith.

Norbert

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506

Posted: December 19 2007 at 09:06

After Crying also have some Bible/Chriustianity related songs, but they are often in Hungarianl like A gadarai megszállott.

The flood is a coomon element in more religions, Orphaned Land's Mabool is based on it.

steve j

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 30 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 164

Posted: December 19 2007 at 08:41

I have found this thread to be very interesting. I classify myself as Christian, but I don't have any Christian prog. I never thought it necessary.

I do have Snakes and Arrows by Rush, and was surprised that Peart would do such an outward attack on the Christian Church, but I still went to their concert this year that was awesome. I kinda like Jon Anderson's lyrics on the Ladder, it has new age spiritual stuff on it, but I can see a connection to mainstream Christianity.

Someone said on here that we should treat others well. I say here! here! Thanks guys.

mickstafa

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 236

Posted: December 19 2007 at 08:39

Ivan, I typically enjoy your posts but we just obviously disagree, which is fine. For me there is no longer a point to drag out this silly argument.

You apparently like labels on music (which is fine); I on the other hand realize that many albums or even individual songs can be related to certain themes (in this case, Christianity). The topic starter wanted some suggestions of some prog music that was not preachy but centered around Christian ideas. So he got some.

No one can doubt that 666, Wakey's Xmas album, Glass Hammer albums, etc. have influences that relate to Christian themes, regardless what "extremists" may have objected to them when they arrived on the market (i.e. 666).

I'm moving on from this thread now; it is a shame though that threads like these get off course so often.

A B Negative View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594

Posted: December 19 2007 at 05:27

I've never heard any overtly Christian prog but I think there will be two main criteria to be fulfilled in order for me to like it:

1. Do I agree with the ideas expressed? I'm not a religious person but most religions have some basically good ideas about how we should treat each other. If the lyrical content goes no further than "Praise Him" I probably won't be interested.

2. Is the music any good?

"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: December 19 2007 at 01:26

SoundsofSeasons wrote:

Neal Morse's Sola Scriptura is, although as i've said in a recent review not blatantly preachy, a Christian album through and through. No matter how you look at it, he is trying to get Christianity to show in his album. The end even gives you some religious idea to ponder on by saying, "God will change the world with just one willing soul. Maybe it is you he's looking for..."

Correction, Sola Scriptura is an album for a MINORITY of the Christianity, and OFFENSIVE against the vast majority of Christians (of course if you consider Catholics as Christians).

I consider Sola Scriptura against the principles of the biggest Christian Confessions.

God took the Promised Land and put it in my bloodstained hand
I can sell you grace for your soul or you'll burn in hell far below

I'm your priest, I'm your king, I'm a Saint
This love your enemies thing's down the drain
Tell me, do you know my name?

Look I got two big horns like a lamb
Even though Peter was married I can't
Look I've got great big army like a General
I may have a mistress but at least I'm a hetero

I'm your priest, I'm your king, I'm a Saint
This love your enemies thing's down the drain
Tell me, do you know my name?
Tell me, do you know my name?
Tell me, do you know my name?
My name...Tell me...

I take this as a worst insult to my beliefs than anything any atheist can say, because it comes from a Christian against other Christians, and because very rarely an Atheist has offended us in this way.

That's why I rather keep away of albums that promote a determined religion, if i want to listen Catholic music, i do it on Church or at my home with my family, I don't try to force the rest of the world to think like me and talking against other people's beliefs.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 19 2007 at 02:06

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65587

Posted: December 19 2007 at 01:23

I still wanna hear some of that there 'secular prog', man, sounds wild...

Tommydouglas View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: March 26 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 71

Posted: December 19 2007 at 01:16

I'm impressed that, on the first page (I haven't read the others yet) people were respectful in their replies avoiding the usual "I hate religion" defensive. Impressive since the anti-relgion folks tend to be extremely defensive and usually more dogmatic and fundamentalist than those they're criticizing.

"I'm not really spiritual, just religious."

Drew

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600

Posted: December 19 2007 at 00:43

Here we go AGAIN....

Dead

SoundsofSeasons View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: March 08 2007
Location: Arizona -- USA
Status: Offline
Points: 221

Posted: December 19 2007 at 00:41

Music is a very powerful medium, and I believe abosolutely that a musician has the right to say basically whatever he wants when it comes to his world view or religion. Does that mean some people won't like it/ listen to it/ tolerate it? Yes. However if a Christian, Buddhist, Athiest...whatever, want's to say something of course they should be able to.

Take two albums of this year for example.

Rush- Snakes and Arrows

and ...

Neal Morse- Sola Scriptura

Snakes and Arrows is outright against religion, and in fact probably considers it humanity's greatest crutch. Neal Peart holds back no punches, and is very blunt.

Neal Morse's Sola Scriptura is, although as i've said in a recent review not blatantly preachy, a Christian album through and through. No matter how you look at it, he is trying to get Christianity to show in his album. The end even gives you some religious idea to ponder on by saying, "God will change the world with just one willing soul. Maybe it is you he's looking for..."

Now I am Christian, so I love the messages in Sola Scriptura and they speak to me more than any other kind of message could. On the other hand I sort of take Snakes and Arrows offensively because Peart basically sais religious people are fools.

(My point is here) I own both these albums, and although I like Sola Scriptura a lot more, I actually like both. Even though I don't agree with most of Peart's lyrics at all, I still enjoy the music.

So, yes, people should absolutely be able to inject their world views, because even though there are many prog albums that are against christianity, there are those out there that accept it and even promote it. Accept that if you get what you want, then someone who opposes you has to get what he wants as well. Just be intellegent about it if you don't want to be affected by the lyrics, both athiests listening to Sola Scriptura and religious people listening to Snakes and Arrows can still enjoy the albums.

1 Chronicles 13:7-9

Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: December 18 2007 at 21:49

mickstafa wrote:

Try reading the liner notes in this CD. He precisely says the album is NON-commercial variations on traditional Christian hymns, for Christians. He is very clear that the album is supposed to be non-commercial and is meant to be a true spiritual album about the event that is at the center of Christianity, the birth of Jesus. He is very clear that it is a christian record.

So if you can't call that a Christian album, then I don't know what is. And if you recognize that it is a Christian album after reading his liner notes, then your argument falls apart.

I was partially wrong about this album but you made my point, thanks Mickstaffa.

Rick wakeman is a Christian and i know that, can't respect more his beliefs, but he is clearly stating that HE'S MAKING AN ALBUIM THAT CONTAINS CHRISTIAN MUSIC FOR CHRISTIANS.

He's not trying to convince anybody, he's not preaching, by the contrary, he's almost telling people don't buy my album.-

I have to use Neal Morse as an example because is the most clear case, he's doing music to be sold to everybody as Prog music, but he doesn't cares to rub the whole concept of Sola Scriptura that is offensive for more than 2/3 of the Christians in the world (Catholics alone are twice the number of Protestant Christian denominations) not counting Orthodoxs and even Catho0lic Anglicans.

Wakeman is not preachibng so it's a Chtristian musician doing music for all the Vhristians Catholics, anglicans, orthodoxs and Protestants, even Mormons can listen it and feel the spirit of Christmass.

On the other hand Morse is dividing Christians and doing Evangelism, that's what is called Christian Rock.

Evangelism is not a requirement for prog with Christianity in it. Nothing more for me to say on this subject.

Are you sure?

Definitions

There are multiple definitions of what qualifies as a "Christian rock" band. Christian rock bands that explicitly state their beliefs and use religious imagery in their lyrics, like Servant, Building 429, Third Day, SONICFLOOd and Petra, tend to be considered a part of the contemporary Christian music (CCM) industry and play for a predominantly Christian market.

Other bands perform music influenced by their faith or containing Christian imagery, but see their audience as the general public. They may avoid specific mention of God or Jesus, or they may write more personal, cryptic, or humorous lyrics concerning their faith rather than direct praise songs. Such bands are sometimes rejected by the CCM rock scene and may specifically reject the CCM label, however many have been accepted as a part of the industry. Other bands may experiment with more abrasive musical styles, which until recently met with resistance from the CCM scene. However, beginning in the 1990s and 2000s there was much wider acceptance even by religious purists of Christian metal, Christian industrial and Christian punk.

Many rock artists including Creed, P.O.D., Evanescence, Collective Soul, and Blessid Union of Souls do not claim to be "Christian bands", but include members who openly profess to be Christians or at times may feature Christian thought, imagery, scripture or other influences in their music. Some of these bands, like Creed, played up the spiritual content of their music and were widely considered a "Christian band" by the popular media, despite their later disavowals of the label. Some bands reject the label because they do not wish to exclusively attract Christian fans, or because they have been identified with another particular music genre, such as heavy metal or indie rock, and feel more creative kinship with members of that scene.

Taken from Wikipedia

What is the definition of Christian rock bands? There are different definitions as a qualified “Christian rock” bands. I know a lot of Christian rock bands. I find the Christian rock bands witness to the world with their Christian rock lyrics by stating their true belief and their religious imagination. I know some Christian rock bands get right to the point with their Christian rock lyrics about the Lord our Saviour, God loves and what Jesus did for us by dying on the cross. They even express about the feelings about Jesus and how Jesus feels about this wicked world. I am impressed with some of the Christian rock bands where some stated about God and Jesus. Some Christian rock bands perform their Christian rock music influenced by their faith or containing their Christian illustrations. There’s rock artists do not claim to be ‘Christian Bands” such as Creed as they played up the spiritual content of their music. I find everyone has different opinions about certain Christian rock bands. Some may say, they don’t act like they are born again Christian by the way they dress when they go to perform on stage. To me you can’t judge by their attire. I know these Christian rock bands work hard to get the word out to this wicked world! Some churches don’t approve of these “Christian rock bands” because of the rock music. The point is it’s the meaning of their Christian rock lyrics. Let God be the judge of which bands “qualify as a Christian rock band”!

http://www.christianrock247.com/2007/October/Definition-of-Christian-Rock-Bands.htm

Christian Rock n Roll on the other hand is not good or evil it is a tool used by the church to reach people young and old with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It sways people to live for Jesus and to worship him in a way that is relevant to today's society

http://www.christrocks.com/satanic.htm

It's evident, Chtristian Rock has a defined meaning that can't be ignored, i can quote you hubndreeds similar to this ones.

Anyhow the topic starter wanted some Christian inspired albums. We gave him some suggestions. Let's leave it at that.

Not right, he even used the word VS this means against, this means we have to choose one of both.

He also talks about SECULAR Prog, but the last prragraph of Profanatio's post is clear as water:

He's clearly talking of strong Christian perspective aka Evanmgelism and compares it with politiocs.

Seems you're the only one who didn't got it

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 18 2007 at 21:54

NotSoKoolAid View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 507

Posted: December 18 2007 at 21:08

If one were to be annoyed by christian music and not atheistic music (or vice versa) one is listening with a dangerous bias. If you are prepared to listen to music influenced by religion (no, not preachers), feel free to check out Echolyn and The Flower Kings. Especially the albums Suffocating The Bloom and Unfold The Future. Albums to ponder the meanings of for sure!

For the record though I don't understand how anyone here can comment simply on religious CDs without commenting also on atheistic CDs. It has the same damn effect, it puts a chalk line between those who are religion-supporters and those who are religion-dismissers, leaving all fair minded people to get their feet chalked. Personally I'll give any quality music a fair chance, though at the end of the day it is the audience of a band that should be freely deciding what to, or what not to, believe in.

Edited by NotSoKoolAid - December 18 2007 at 21:16

Proletariat View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882

Posted: December 18 2007 at 18:17

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Deathrabbit wrote:

Just because some Christians are blind, bigoted, fools doesn't mean all are. I'd wager that goes the same for Christian musicians.

It's true that's why i believe that Rock or Prog with Christian, Catholic or Jewish messages is not the best option, because it's being used as an instrument to convert kids with messages.

The same opinion I have for Satanic messages or for that band that we were shown some time ago praisingg Bush.

Music as an expression of your spirituality is great but when it's so specific that tries to gain followers without their concious will is wrong.

I don't want a Catholic who is converted because he heard a tune that he liked, that guy is not a real Catholic, most surely a lost kid following anything that he will be offered and who will change as fast as he was converted.

In the same way I believe in free music, not in one that says that they carry the only truth and the rest are wrong.

I share the same respect for a Catholic, Baptist or Mormon Church as I also respect a Sinagogue and a Mosque, this doesn't mean I'm less Catholic, but it means I believe all persons are entitled to believe in the God their parents taught them, so spirituality in music is OK, but the more specefic you get, the closer to fanatism and bigotry you are.

Music as a tool ceases to be music to turn into propaganda and is against the freedom of art.

Iván

Wow, verry convincing.

That last statement made me think about RIO and especially Henry Cow with their "Art as a hammer" mentality, I know your not really a RIO fan anyway but does that take away from the music for you? Or do you just find it annoying?

P.S.

Personally I'm not a fan of christian music as it feels like its only for "insiders" already in the faith and I am left on the outside and can't connect. However I love how Kansas shows searching because I really can connect with that.

who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob

mickstafa

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 236

Posted: December 18 2007 at 18:06

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Wakeman is one of the most mature Christian authors, he doesn't preach, he plays secular Prog, the album is only a commercial carrols album.

And precisely, it's not evangelical because it has no words, he's not trying to convince anybody, can't be considered Christian Rock or Prog.

Try reading the liner notes in this CD. He precisely says the album is NON-commercial variations on traditional Christian hymns, for Christians. He is very clear that the album is supposed to be non-commercial and is meant to be a true spiritual album about the event that is at the center of Christianity, the birth of Jesus. He is very clear that it is a christian record.

So if you can't call that a Christian album, then I don't know what is. And if you recognize that it is a Christian album after reading his liner notes, then your argument falls apart.

Evangelism is not a requirement for prog with Christianity in it. Nothing more for me to say on this subject.

Anyhow the topic starter wanted some Christian inspired albums. We gave him some suggestions. Let's leave it at that.