I am upset. Here's why (progressive elitism):

explodingjosh wrote: You always take any chance possible to bash them whenever they are mentioned, which is lllllllllllammmmme.

I've read that micky is a DT basher, is that more acceptable than bashing avantgarde bands? I like DT and I make fun of them all the time, so I'm fine with bashing them. As should everyone be with bashing any band, avantgarde or otherwise, avantgarde bands are often waaaay more ridiculous than DT, and with more pretention. Now my bashing likely seemed more serious than micky's, so your reaction is understandable, but know that the seeming seriousness of it is part of the jest. Again, over the internet...

Yes, this is something I have definitely noticed. The exact same thread ran on Progressive Ears earlier in the year and the same conclusion was noted by some; that the snobbery towards neo prog and prog metal was often perpetrated by RIO/avant fans. The same is true here. That's not to say that ALL RIO fans are of that ilk, and I do stress that- I dare say most couldn't care less either way- but there ARE a handful who seem to feel the need to prove the superiority of their tastes at the expense of others.

King Crimson776 wrote: explodingjosh wrote: You always take any chance possible to bash them whenever they are mentioned, which is lllllllllllammmmme. I've read that micky is a DT basher

who me....  nah....I don't bash them.     I actually have a picture of John Patrucci sitting on my nightstand.  I worship John Myung to the point I try to emulate him by playing a 1000 notes a minute with my Marshall turned off... 


love DT.. and this site just wouldn't quite be the same without them.. or their fans

I don't get why Micky has been singled out continually in this thread. I never saw him as being of that aggressive, snobby ilk- I don't get the impression that he likes DT but he's never vicious about it. This brings me to another issue, though, that's completely at the other end of the spectrum- some people need to get a thicker skin, IMHO. There's a big difference between somebody saying they don't like a band and somebody firing missives at fans of those particular bands, and I feel that should be taken into account, although the lines are often admittedly blurred in several posts I've read.

Almost completely agree.

First of all, fans and haters of all different kinds of music tend to be like this too.  King Crimson776 is doing almost the same thing as "avant elitists".  I don't think it's really fair to pick on the listeners of Avant/RIO, but....

Anyone who says there isn't elitism towards prog and against DT and neo-prog seems to be missing something.  I'm personally of the opinion as a musician that if you know what you are trying to make and succeed in doing so, then there is nothing to criticize.  Dream Theater wants to show off a bit.  They also want to make somewhat accessible music.  So what if they do?  If that's not what you want to listen to, then DON'T LISTEN TO IT.  Maybe thats what some people enjoy about progressive rock.  I'll always say that AC/DC is one of the best rock bands of all time.  They want to make good old ass kicking hard rock, and do they ever succeed.

I can say that I personally don't enjoy RIO/Avant unless its fused with metal.  I also don't enjoy much neo-prog or metal bands that sound like Dream Theater (who are essentially a neo-prog band themselves).  It's just not my thing.  Maybe it's yours.  I really don't care.  The fights over genres of music are really unnecessary.  Your subjective opinions dont have to be the same as those of others.

 I think it's one thing to look for something on the outer edges, and quite another to conclude that this search, or the results of said search , is the only valid form of music to listen to. I'm constantly looking for new stuff. It's one of the reasons I joined this forum. Up, until now, my chief forms of finding new music was recommendations from friends, or Amazon.com.
 I'm hoping to be exposed to new styles of music, regardless if it's neo/prog, advant/metal, punk/folk or whatever. So, as I'm fond of saying to my teenage kids "Take the cool of out the music! Just listen to it, and enjoy it." I wish someone would have said that to me, in my younger days. All the music I missed, because it didn't fit my narrow vision of what was Cool or Hip or whatever.

spacemetal wrote: Almost completely agree.First of all, fans and haters of all different kinds of music tend to be like this too.  King Crimson776 is doing almost the same thing as "avant elitists".  I don't think it's really fair to pick on the listeners of Avant/RIO, but.... Anyone who says there isn't elitism towards prog and against DT and neo-prog seems to be missing something.  I'm personally of the opinion as a musician that if you know what you are trying to make and succeed in doing so, then there is nothing to criticize.  Dream Theater wants to show off a bit.  They also want to make somewhat accessible music.  So what if they do?  If that's not what you want to listen to, then DON'T LISTEN TO IT.  Maybe thats what some people enjoy about progressive rock.  I'll always say that AC/DC is one of the best rock bands of all time.  They want to make good old ass kicking hard rock, and do they ever succeed.I can say that I personally don't enjoy RIO/Avant unless its fused with metal.  I also don't enjoy much neo-prog or metal bands that sound like Dream Theater (who are essentially a neo-prog band themselves).  It's just not my thing.  Maybe it's yours.  I really don't care.  The fights over genres of music are really unnecessary.  Your subjective opinions dont have to be the same as those of others.

I have nothing against avantgarde music as a whole though, I just find alot of it to be music that pretends to be something innovative for the sake of it, when there (at this point) might not be any need for innovation; like I often say, when are we free to do whatever and not expected to progress, when are all the boundaries broken down so that we can take whatever formulas or styles and make the best music we can? I bash my friends for liking certain bands all the time and vice versa, but it's never serious, as someone mentioned on this thread. If we can't criticize "what you (anybody) are trying to make" as a musician then there is no point in the review or discussion parts of this website. There is such a thing as mediocrity and if we don't criticize, we are supporting that kind of crap and inviting more of it. I'm not even hinting at any bands in particular, it's certainly an opinion thing (I think that overall people usually agree on what is quality though) it's just in general that discussions like this would be useless (and boring) if we just praised everything we like and let everything we don't like slide, because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, "Oo, well... they uh, succeeded at what they were going for at least..." C'mon . Don't restrict the many open minded to avoid offending the few oversensitive. If I diss a band someone likes, they shouldn't take it personally, they should just defend their opinion of the band and say why they think the band is good, and vice versa.

Oh, and AC/DC is the sh*t \m/ (wish there was a rock on smiley) (this'll do)

Edited by King Crimson776 - November 26 2007 at 17:23

chamberry wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: chamberry wrote: King Crimson776 are you serious about all of your posts on this thread? @ Topic:I agree that elitism isn't a good thing and that there's too many of it in Prog, but elitism can be found everywhere and not necessarily in the "obscure music is better than mainstream music" context. I've seen it the other way around too. I really don't know why you mentioned RIO/Avant fans in the beginning of the thread since they're they nicest people I know in PA (at least the ones in the RIO drop in center thread and ZAR team) and I've never seen any act of elitism when talking to them.I don't care about all of those things like I used to years ago. I'm not worried about what people think about my taste in music or how obscure (I hate that word) my music is because in the end it'll only affect me and my enjoyment when listening to music.I do like to promote bands that aren't well known, but I do it because I enjoy seeing people expanding their musical horizons and not because I'm a show off or elitist. No, I'm not serious about all of them. I by no means have elitist feelings toward anyone, avantheads or mainstreamers. I was just trying to piss some elitist avantheads off, IF there were any here. But most of the people here are probabIy cool and just happen to like some GOOD lesser known bands, plenty of those out there. I have absolutely nothing against avantgarde music when it is legitimately good, but I find that the problem with alot of it is that the bands try to sound avantgarde in order to cover up their weakness as a band and inability to write catchy memorable music. I enjoy all kinds of music but I just don't like it when a weirdass obscure band gets praised beacuse it sounds like someting that might be new. But aren't you doing the exact same thing that you're trying to prove wrong? I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. Take a good look at all of your posts and put yourself in the shoes of an avant-garde fan. Isn't that what you hate?Oh and, by the way, there is no such thing as "legitimately good". Taste is subjective and if you don't understand what artists like TMV or SGM are doing then fine, but don't try to show your opinions as facts.

See, no, because what I was making fun of was elitists whereas I was just dissing some bands I dislike, and like I said, I'm fine with anyone bashing bands I like, because it's not serious. I also did say that I was probably being too obscene in my bashing of certain bands and I'll keep my dissing more obviously lighthearted from now on. I did give reasons for my bashing though, and if we aren't taking music too seriously, we should be fine with it. And yeah, I guess I could have said "I have absolutely nothing against avantgarde music when [I feel] it is legitimately good" or something like that, but I think you could assume that.

Edited by King Crimson776 - November 26 2007 at 17:33

chamberry wrote: You should be more careful with your words then. I got the wrong impression of you because of it. I still don't like the idea of bashing a band (that's probably why I still haven't made a one-star review...), but that's just me.

Gah! Make some then! No, just kidding, never hesitate to though.

chamberry wrote: You should be more careful with your words then. I got the wrong impression of you because of it. I still don't like the idea of bashing a band (that's probably why I still haven't made a one-star review...), but that's just me.

IMO you can easily give a one-star rating to an album you don't like and it doesn't mean you are bashing the band, but that you just dislike that release.
Case-in-point: Yes is one of my favorite bands, yet if there was ever an album that deserved one star it was their "Yes Remixes" release! Sometimes brutal honesty is necessary, (even if it hurts a little deep down inside.)
...just my 2 cents on that slightly tangential subject