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Topic ClosedPhil Collins For Addition as Prog-Related

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rushfan4 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:27
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

The question I would ask would be why? What is the positive benefit in adding Phil Collins?

I do not believe that his inclusion would fulfill the requirement of attracting new fans to the Prog Archives.
 
Any Phil fans would know he was in Genesis, even if they only knew the later releases, and therefore would find their way to the PA through Genesis (if at all - ever Googled Genesis? Even with m@x's superpowers, Google does not lead you to the PA - the chances of a Phil Collins search resulting in a PA find would be many times less).
 
All that would happen is that his albums would get low ratings based on their zero Prog content, thus driving away the fans, and the occasional high rating from a fan who did not read the rating criteria, which would annoy Progheads. Either way, that would ultimately reflect badly on the PA (IMO).
 
However, I do not believe that there would be a dreadful flame-war for adding him: people here do not despise PC, most actually admire the guy, but I do think his solo albums would get hammered and I see no benefit in that for Phil or the Archive.
 
 
Probably entirely true.  But there are kids out there whose first exposure to Phil Collins would be that very same Tarzan II movie that Philippe posted.  Probably remote, but maybe there is hope to convert someone while they are still young and convertible. 
 
Maybe even more remote, but just maybe, Phil would happen to google himself (instead of his usual googling his prog fans) and come across the site and see his name on a prog site and remember that he is a prog musician and decide to record some more prog music.    Probably never happen in this time continuum but what the heck I thought I would throw it out there.LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:28
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Wasn't the infamous ice show Rick Wakeman?  I don't think ELP had anything like that.  
 
Sorry yes. That's right.  I knew it involved somebody who was a really good keyboard player.  Memory lapse on who it was.


Edited by rushfan4 - November 15 2007 at 20:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:29
Originally posted by E-Dub E-Dub wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Why is it here? Because its here.  Roll the Bones.
 
Its here because M@x says its here.


Doesn't mean all of us here have to like it. Right?

Free to speak my mind...I hope.

E
 
Absolutely, and I fully respect your opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:37
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site). 

 
Embarrassed
 
I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.  Wink
 
On the topic of Phil, I actually enjoy a lot of his solo work, especially when he lets his love of jazz or old-style r&b show through.  Or when he's downright p*ssed off.  If his solo albums were added, I could see myself rating his first album with a solid 4.  It's good stuff and I still enjoy hearing it now and again, some 25 years after I first heard it, a rare thing for a non-prog album.  I also like quite a bit of Hello...., But Seriously, and Dance into the Light (the drums on this album are superb, as he didn't use any drum machines Clap). 
 
However, I have to agree with the majority here on this one.  While he played in a prog band, his music really didn't draw a lot of influence from prog.  Almost zero in fact.  His influences were jazz, r&b and unfortunately some of the modern pop of time. 
 
Probably best that you do keep what you were doing to yourself. 
 
Is not the merging of rock with jazz one of the two key components of being a prog band?  Rock and classical and Rock and jazz.  But alas again I am not trying to argue that he is progressive,  I am proposing that he is prog-related because he is a key member of one of the major prog rock bands and thus related (again outside of the scope of the current website definition of prog-related).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:40
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

::snip::

 
Probably entirely true.  But there are kids out there whose first exposure to Phil Collins would be that very same Tarzan II movie that Philippe posted.  Probably remote, but maybe there is hope to convert someone while they are still young and convertible. 
 
Maybe even more remote, but just maybe, Phil would happen to google himself (instead of his usual googling his prog fans) and come across the site and see his name on a prog site and remember that he is a prog musician and decide to record some more prog music.    Probably never happen in this time continuum but what the heck I thought I would throw it out there.LOL
Clap I like the way you're thinking Scott. I still think those same fans would still find their way here through the Genesis connection without the need to add (or upset Wink) Phill.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:49
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site). 

 
Embarrassed
 
I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.  Wink
 
On the topic of Phil, I actually enjoy a lot of his solo work, especially when he lets his love of jazz or old-style r&b show through.  Or when he's downright p*ssed off.  If his solo albums were added, I could see myself rating his first album with a solid 4.  It's good stuff and I still enjoy hearing it now and again, some 25 years after I first heard it, a rare thing for a non-prog album.  I also like quite a bit of Hello...., But Seriously, and Dance into the Light (the drums on this album are superb, as he didn't use any drum machines Clap). 
 
However, I have to agree with the majority here on this one.  While he played in a prog band, his music really didn't draw a lot of influence from prog.  Almost zero in fact.  His influences were jazz, r&b and unfortunately some of the modern pop of time. 
 
Probably best that you do keep what you were doing to yourself. 
 
Is not the merging of rock with jazz one of the two key components of being a prog band?  Rock and classical and Rock and jazz.  But alas again I am not trying to argue that he is progressive,  I am proposing that he is prog-related because he is a key member of one of the major prog rock bands and thus related (again outside of the scope of the current website definition of prog-related).
 
I guess the question then is how far do you take that.  If Tony Banks' postman puts out an album of traditional country-western songs, do we include that in prog-related?  Tongue
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 20:56
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The first to awaken from his fall-induced coma (I assume that The Doctor was otherwise occupied on a porn site). 

 
Embarrassed
 
I was otherwise occupied, but ummm, with what I'll keep to myself.  Wink
 
On the topic of Phil, I actually enjoy a lot of his solo work, especially when he lets his love of jazz or old-style r&b show through.  Or when he's downright p*ssed off.  If his solo albums were added, I could see myself rating his first album with a solid 4.  It's good stuff and I still enjoy hearing it now and again, some 25 years after I first heard it, a rare thing for a non-prog album.  I also like quite a bit of Hello...., But Seriously, and Dance into the Light (the drums on this album are superb, as he didn't use any drum machines Clap). 
 
However, I have to agree with the majority here on this one.  While he played in a prog band, his music really didn't draw a lot of influence from prog.  Almost zero in fact.  His influences were jazz, r&b and unfortunately some of the modern pop of time. 
 
Probably best that you do keep what you were doing to yourself. 
 
Is not the merging of rock with jazz one of the two key components of being a prog band?  Rock and classical and Rock and jazz.  But alas again I am not trying to argue that he is progressive,  I am proposing that he is prog-related because he is a key member of one of the major prog rock bands and thus related (again outside of the scope of the current website definition of prog-related).
 
I guess the question then is how far do you take that.  If Tony Banks' postman puts out an album of traditional country-western songs, do we include that in prog-related?  Tongue
 
It depends did Tony crack a smile upon the release of his postman's album?
 
Obviously, M@x and the admins perogative would take precedence to any inclusions in these type cases and based on the limited number included in this category my guess is they would continue to keep it limited.
 
My thought would be keeping it to major artists.  As with anything though there are only so few admins and so little time for adding real progressive rock artists and as always that would take priority over the prog-related artists.  And if there are offers to add information for lesser known artists such as Laura Meade then these could be added as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:05
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

 
Probably entirely true.  But there are kids out there whose first exposure to Phil Collins would be that very same Tarzan II movie that Philippe posted.  Probably remote, but maybe there is hope to convert someone while they are still young and convertible. 
 
Rushfan,. the Phil Collins fans are no longer young and convertible, most of them are in their late 20's or mid 30's, hias last album was a faillure in sales, the young kinds see him as a joke.
 
Even if they were young, it's hard to change somebody who is an avid POP listener into Prog, the chances of converting a hil Collins fan into a VDGG fan are the same as converting an Eminem fan.
 
But the chances you will loose 10 stable members are much bigger, so the cost - benefit balance is not convinient.
 
But most important, this is a Prog site that must be a guide and database of Prog:
  1. Phil Collins is not a Prog artist
  2. Phil Collins is not remortely connected to Prog during his solo career
  3. His addition would be misleading

That's my main concern

 Maybe even more remote, but just maybe, Phil would happen to google himself (instead of his usual googling his prog fans) and come across the site and see his name on a prog site and remember that he is a prog musician and decide to record some more prog music.  
 
Impossible, I was a member in the Genesis Forum when Phil wrote a letter blaming Gabriel fans for not having a reunion, Phil knows what Prog is, he choosed to ignore and insult Prog LITERALLY and multiple tiimes.
 
The chances he will record an album today are minimum and even if he wanted, he has no experioence writting Prog music,. never had it and never will, he's a good Pop songwritter for those who like it, but he never wrote a Prog note.
 
  Probably never happen in this time continuum but what the heck I thought I would throw it out there.LOL
 
Oh no a Trekkie!!!! LOL
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:29
Hi Ivan:
 
I've been expecting you. Smile
 
You won't get any arguments from me on your points, as I did preface my points with the comments that the odds of these happening were remote.  I think that fans of the Tarzan movies are probably under the age of 20 (if not under the age of 10) but even so you are most likely correct that listening to that soundtrack is not going to turn them into prog rock fans.  I have two cousins that are in their early teens whose first exposure to Phil Collins was the Tarzan soundtrack, and they now at least like him as a solo artist.  That being said I doubt that they will ever become prog fans because they are into the pop of their generation.Cry
 
My hope would be that including a biography similar to what was included in my first post would appease those such as yourself who do not want him included.  Such a biography would leave no doubt that PA is not saying that his solo career is progressive, but that he is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.  I would like to be hopeful that his inclusion under those circumstances would not cause seasoned members to leave the forum.  I think the first few weeks would consist of members either ignoring his existence on the forum or reviews giving him 1 or 2 stars that say that it is poor or for fans only.  I would hope that these reviews would be kept civil, but I imagine that Easy Livin' could be busy cleaning up some language in a few reviews.  The inclusion of these type of reviews would only enforce your position in regards to his solo career. 
 
Thank you for your attention to this thread.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:32
Ivan's right:  Phil Collins has no love lost for "prog".  From the Genesis special I watched, these are not verbatim but pretty damn close:

"If I was stranded on a desert island, I'd much rather have a Sam & Dave or Aretha Franklin record than anything by Yes or Pink Floyd"

(talking about the emergence of punk)  "They talked about these (prog) bands, saying they're such crap, they're dinosaurs.  And I was like, 'yeah, they really are crap'.  And I was later horrified to learn that we (Genesis) were among the bands that they were talking about!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:35
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Hi Ivan:
 
I've been expecting you. Smile
 
 
 
 
So was I.  He had to sharpen his knives first though.  LOL
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:36
Originally posted by Rushfan4 Rushfan4 wrote:

He is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.


Not at all.  Genesis was one of the most important prog bands, but apart from Genesis and Brand X, Phil Collins has not contributed one single bit to the prog music scene.  Genesis and Brand X are already on PA. 


Edited by rileydog22 - November 15 2007 at 22:37

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:37
Instead of "Addition", ¿how about "extraterrestrialization"?. Let's launch him into space. He was one hell of a drummer, playing in one of the most lovely bands ever, and all he did was ruin it. Ok, ok, let's use Tony Banks as fuel, same charges. 
¡Beware of the Bee!
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:38
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Such a biography would leave no doubt that PA is not saying that his solo career is progressive, but that he is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.  I would like to be hopeful that his inclusion under those circumstances would not cause seasoned members to leave the forum. 
 


they may not leave, but they'll consider it


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:42
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Such a biography would leave no doubt that PA is not saying that his solo career is progressive, but that he is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.  I would like to be hopeful that his inclusion under those circumstances would not cause seasoned members to leave the forum. 
 


they may not leave, but they'll consider it


 
Why would anyone consider leaving this site over the addition of an admittedly controversial figure in the prog world.  Sure, debate his inclusion, yell about it if you must, but leave?  Confused  That makes no sense to me.
 
Besides, where are they gonna go?  Back to the real world?  LOL
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:44
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by Rushfan4 Rushfan4 wrote:

He is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.


Not at all.  Genesis was one of the most important prog bands, but apart from Genesis and Brand X, Phil Collins has not contributed one single bit to the prog music scene.  Genesis and Brand X are already on PA. 
 
For what it is worth, I just went to AllMusic to check on his credits.  In addition to Genesis, Brand X, and his solo work, he is also credited for drums and percussion on various albums for Brian Eno, Al DiMeola, Robert Fripp, Camel, Mike Oldfield and others.  I can't say if any of that was progressive or to what level he contributed, but these are all some pretty well known progressive rock bands that he at least had some involvement with. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46
Why should he be in here just because he's a former member of Genesis?
With that logic Crowded House should be in her because Neil Finn and his drummer were ex Split Enz, or else the Police because Stuart Copeland was in Curver Air, or else Motorhead because Lemmy was in Hawkwind.
Puttin Phil Collins in the archives is like giving Hitler the nobel peace prize - an obsurdity
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46
Collin's work IS indeed prog related, because it is the very antonim of prog... with this explanation included (as bio), I think he would fit perfectly... Wink

Edited by cuncuna - November 15 2007 at 22:46
¡Beware of the Bee!
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46
OK let's face it and stop being polite...  the man's music and all it stands for makes my skin crawl in a way unlike most other pop artists.. but hey, I'm sure he's a lovely guy




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2007 at 22:46
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Such a biography would leave no doubt that PA is not saying that his solo career is progressive, but that he is an important but controversial figure in the prog music scene.  I would like to be hopeful that his inclusion under those circumstances would not cause seasoned members to leave the forum. 
 


they may not leave, but they'll consider it


 
Why would anyone consider leaving this site over the addition of an admittedly controversial figure in the prog world.  Sure, debate his inclusion, yell about it if you must, but leave?  Confused  That makes no sense to me.
 
Besides, where are they gonna go?  Back to the real world?  LOL
 
Thank you Doctor.  Agreed.  That would mean they would have to get a life. Shocked Is that possible???LOL
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