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rushfan4 
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
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 Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:21 |
Based on my theory that if it is in my collection than it must be prog, most of the above named bands should be here. Boston, Toto, Europe, Phil Collins, and egads, Kiss.
I recently heard a mixed metaphor regarding the holding of the Sword of Damocoles over Pandora's Box, and I believe that that does apply to the prog-related category.
There are so many bands that could fit into prog-related. PA could mirror the All-Music Guide with this category. Fortunately, whether it is Max or it is the Admins or the Special Collabs, this category has not grown out of control.
This subject has gone round and round and round and round,etc..., and that is only in the short time I have been on this site. Unfortunately, each time a well-known band is added to the prog-related category, it opens up the doors for 10 bands that are "related" to the band was added.
I think it was Easy Livin' who pointed out in the thread regarding the addition for Black Sabbath as prog-related, that for every one controversial band added to Prog-Related there are almost 100 other bands that are added to prog rock categories that do not provoke controversy. Unfortunately, many of these bands also are added and go unnoticed. Which means for every one post in a thread regarding a newly added progressive rock band, there are 100 posts in a thread regarding a controversial prog-related rock band.
In many instances, I am not musically wise enough to make the distinction between prog and prog-related and not prog. I grew up on the 80's and 90's output of the major prog bands (and more specifically Rush and Yes), so often this is what I grew up considering to be prog. In all honesty, quite often I prefer the later output to the earlier output of these bands (a belief that will probably eventually get me banned from this website). It is reasoning like this for why I might be more inclined to consider a band like Boston as prog or prog-related than someone who grew up listening to the 70's output of these bands and consider this music to be the true meaning of prog.
In regards to the continued reference of bands like Boston as a classic rock band. I agree. But based on the music that the local classic rock station plays that also means that ELP, Jethro Tull, Rush, Yes, and Pink Floyd are also classic rock bands, since they play the more mainstream music from all of those bands. Now I can't recall ever hearing King Crimson, Genesis, VDGG, or Gentle Giant (to name a few) on this station, so although they may be classic, I guess that they aren't classic rock.
And last but not least , to quote Ghost Rider "prog-related is not prog".
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:26 |
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^ beautiful man... simply beautiful...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:28 |
 rushfan4 wrote:
Based on my theory that if it is in my collection than it must be prog, most of the above named bands should be here. Boston, Toto, Europe, Phil Collins, and egads, Kiss.
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I feel sometimes the first statement is something we can just about all agree on until we get into the specifics, then its like Boston?!?!?!, Toto?!?!?!? (maybe the Dune soundtrack), Europe?!?!?! never heard of them, Phil?!?!?! not in my collection in solo career form (maybe face value sometime in the future), Kiss, waaah, no!!! 
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 13 2007 at 11:29
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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micky
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:30 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:33 |
The Doctor wrote:
micky wrote:
ahhh.... and do you like Argent's place here... some think Xover.. and some thing hard...errr.. heavy prog?
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I think Xover prog is the best place for them. I wouldn't
really consider them heavy prog, although they did do a few tracks that
I would consider heavy, most of their output to me fits the definition
of Xover. However, Raf is right, we have hijacked this thread big
time. |
it needed to be 'jacked... unless you want more rivers of blue font and
grown men calling each other names. It should be in the hands of
the admins now...
thanks for the feedback on them.. I really dont' know them too well..
some of our collabs thought Xover.. others Hard..err.. Heavy Prog.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:45 |
Casartelli wrote:
I'm still waiting for my vote, because I still have the open question which part of an artist's discography should be prog (related) to be included in our beloved archives resp. in the PR category of our beloved archives.
I'm almost sure about a No, because I think one song on five albums (Foreplay / Long Time) is not enough, but I insist on the fact that Toto is a more interesting discussion.
Europe would also be fair for some stuff from their debut (Seven doors hotel, for example), whether you like it or not... but let's not go into that.  |
I do think that trivializing this to one song on five albums is going a bit far. There is a post by Yorkie, I believe, that goes deeper into what songs he considers prog related. I personally find the second album more prog related than first (and the third and subsequent ones I would not bring into the discussion.)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:45 |
Lady in Black wrote:
| Ivan, I'm Italian and I speak Italian, sure.
Yes Lady, I felt foolish when I read your profile LOL
Proper for this the sentence isn't clear, because without examples it seems to tell want that also the PR bands are Prog (at least so I can interpret it).
Respectfully I disagree, it’s clear because the first phrase clearly states that this bands are not Prog but have a certain relation in higher or lesser degree with Prog as a genre.
In fact PR is a family of bands that have inflienced true Prog bands (also in the 70's). But I think that also the case of Rock bands influenced by Prog bands are cases of Prog Related (better: Related to Prog).
It’s in the definition Lady, it’s also clear for all of us, influential or influenced
And this is the case of Toto. So for some people 10CC (and Godley & Creme) or ELO are 100% Prog. Also for me, in certain moments 10CC or ELO are 100% Prog. Mandrakeroot says to find Prog also in Démis Roussos music. Sure, this is true. Démis speak in Prog terms for to describe its 70's production (see the Italian compilation "Démis Roussos" [sleeve notes write in Italian by Démis...]).
Well, that’s a strong point, but the genre of artists is independent from what they believe it is, take Ian Anderson, he has sweared 100 times he doesn’t play Prog, and we know it’s false.
For me Boston, Toto, Journey are good case of Related to Prog, nothing all.
I don’t believe so, they may have been influenced in the performance of an instrument, but the structure of their music is IMHO exclusively AOR ROCK
But I think that different it's the case of Mountain because produced 100% Prog songs or the case of Cream because an album of "Disraeli Gears" contain sure Blues, White blues but is innovative for 1967 and to sort Cream like PP band is simply obvious.
Again disagree, Mountain could be Prog related IMHO, but they are mainly a Hard Rock band and Cream, well they are pure Blues Rock IMHO.
Well, Judas Priest with "Rocka Rolla" and Saxon with "Saxon" plays Heavy Prog in their debuts. Also the RCA phase of discography of Scorpions contain superb Prog moments ("Fly To The Rainbows" is a 100% Floyd song!) and sure these are great examples. Like sure, in a certain sense, Motorhead plays a sort of (excuse me for the language) Fukin' R'n'R very near to the Prog (but in R'n'R field!) like in the 60's sure an example of Prog in music is the case of many bands (The Shadows, The Zombies... For examples). So Grateful Dead. This band isn't Prog. Or better is Prog. But not Prog in Prog terms. Prog in Rock, Blues and Psychedelic field, like Jimi Hendrix.
In the case of Hendrix I expressed my disagreement several times, his performance was influential, but his compositions not, at least in the way I see it.
So, if PR is a clear family of bands with the PA policy isn't clear the role of Related to Prog bands, that isn't PR bands because influenced by full Prog bands but remains true Rock (or Heavy Rock or Heavy Metal or...) bands or the role of bands like Cream or Jimi Hendrix that plays in an era of great changes (from Beat, White Blues and Psychedelia and full Prog era) that for me are all PP bands.
The problem is that we would have to add each and every band that performed from 1962 to 1969, including The Mamas & The Papas who made incredibly complex vocal arrangements and every Psychedelic band in the matrket.
This is my personal opinion.
P.s.: The Related to Prog category/ family isn't a category for PA. But the bands/ artists of this category/ family are sure bands/ artists for PA.
LOL this is a play of words...The category in which the bands play doesn’t fit, but the bands do fit, I know Prog Related is ambiguous (it has to be ambiguous), but not so much.
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Now the second.
Lady in Black wrote:
| I agree with you, Ivan.
Because beginning to insult itself we breed only discussions that don't carry to nothing.
Better my previous post, because seeks to explain (and I believe there to succeed) the reason come done certain proposals of inclusion.
That in definitive... Is a great field for to exchange ideas on thing is the Prog for each forum members.
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Thanks for this Lady, I may be strong in my beliefs, but i’m very careful with insulting people, a line must never be crossed and from thye first reply i was attacked and called from idiot to dishonest.
Thank you again.
Tony R wrote:
Whilst I am certainly not convinced Boston should be here, I wonder how being mainstream can disqualify a band from being included here.
Genesis were THE icons of AOR for over a decade, certainly far longer than they were the darlings of the Prog scene.
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Tony,. You know this is a fallacy, the requirement is having ONE 100% Prog album, and genesis had 7 if not 9, while only 4 or 5 Pop albums.
Genesis is because the 7 or 9 Prog albums, not for the other 4 or 5, the non Prog albums are here exclusively because we add full discographies.
The case of Boston is different, they don’t have a single Prog album and IMHO not a single Prog Related album, so I see no reason to add them and the cases are not remotely similar.
Lets ´put in another way, if Genesis had only released:
- Abacab
- Shapes
- Invisible Touch
- We Can’t Dance
- CAS
They wouldn’t be here, so no exclusively mainstream band should be here...Am I wrong?
Iván
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
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Points: 15585
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:47 |
micky wrote:
Erik raised a point... one that I asked Bob for his personal opinion on (since the admin hat was off  ) earlier in the thread. So I expand my question... and just offer a bit of advice.. take it or leave it.
to the admins.... it might really help if you did clarify what the scope of PR admissions are . Are we shooting for a sense of completelness in the work we do here... or are these addittions targeted to the site in particular. Either for bringing in bands that many prog fans know and may love... groups that might bring others to this site.... or like the rest of the genre teams... shooting to make this site the archives of prog music... and since we have it here... by extension.... prog related music.
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I'm still working may way through the 4 pages of posts which have appeared in this thread since this morning!
What I would say is that we need to segregate the discussion about Boston from one about site policy re Prog related. That must be discussed in the "Help us improve the site section".
I and the other admins are happy to deal with this query Micky, but not here. To do so would simply prolong that discussion and detract from the specific band being proposed.
Edit - OK now caught up, I see Tony has answered the point already! 
I think the debate on Boston has reached maturity. Do we actually have someone who wishes to do the work of adding them? If so, we will take the proposal to the Admin team for a final decision on whether or not they should be admitted.
(The reason we do it this way is because there is no point in approving them, then no-one adds them anyway, it does not presume any forgone conclusion. You can PM me or another admin member if you'd prefer to remain anonymous meanwhile!  )
Edited by Easy Livin - November 13 2007 at 11:54
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micky
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 11:49 |
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got it Bob... thanks... I'll start that thread down the road a
bit... figured it might have some bearing on this particular case
since I personally see Boston as a borderline PR case... as I said
earlier ...both sides have good cases.
Edited by micky - November 13 2007 at 11:52
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 2755
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 12:11 |
micky wrote:
to be honest Tony..... I say take it to the admin team.... at least settle the question.... or we'll be having the same thread in 3 months.. or 6 months...
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I would think that you just settled the question yourself. If the same problem is going to be creeping up every 3 months, all you have to is decide whether the policy is to be inclusive and add them or whether it is to be restrictive and keep them out.
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micky
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 12:18 |
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yes.. but I think Bob is looking for you all to keep making your
points.. and invite others to offer their two cents and they will look
at what people say and go from there. I will probably ask
them, formally, to take it up. Boston has come up several times..
no sense wasted all this cyber-space not to have the admins evaluate
it. Or decide not to decide at the very least hahahah. They
have been debated before. .and if not decided upon .. they'll be
debated again down the road.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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ghost_of_morphy
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Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 2755
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 12:22 |
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It certainly seems that, at least in prog-related, there needs to be a rethinking of what qualifies as such and standards that can be applied to individual cases, as I and others have tried to do so many times in this thread.
Edited by ghost_of_morphy - November 13 2007 at 12:23
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micky
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 12:28 |
I think you have made some really good points... and so has Ivan.. .it
is like Jorge said.. there comes a point where you know.... you both
might be right. That is the fun.. and frustration with this site.
There simply is no right.. or wrong answer. It's all in how we see prog
(related). That is why these groups are so damn tricky to
evalutate... and why I agreed with David. Only the admins
could.. or should handle this stuff. You have to have some sort
of moral authority to say.. 'this is the way things are.... and if you
don't like it... find another site' Collabs can't do that...
though some try
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 21 2004
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Points: 15585
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 14:40 |
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Wise words Micky, although of course we would hope no one would feel motivated to find another site!
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erik neuteboom
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Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 7659
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 16:31 |
Progwalhalla
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Easy Livin
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Joined: February 21 2004
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 17:06 |
Never heard of it!
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erik neuteboom
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Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 7659
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 17:34 |
Denial, most used psychological defense mecanism, Bob
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micky
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 18:22 |
hahahhahah.. well Raff and I have talked about going into
business for ourselves and starting a combination prog/cooking
and dating website
The selling point will be an amateur stand-up night where we
draft people to take shots at Genesis. First prize is a night out
on the town with me in the US ..or with Raff in Europe. We
figured since M@X has shown us all that with a few irritating ads
you can have a new boat to ski behind we could just quit our day jobs. hahhaha. 
anyhow... thanks for kind words Bob... I think that is honestly the
first time in two plus years here I have seen the words Micky and Wise
in the same sentence.. unless there was an Ass attached to the
Wise hahhaha.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
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Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 11979
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 18:28 |
The Admin Team would like to clarify our position on placing "Micky" and "wise" in the same sentence. It was a mistake. We are all human. Please dont crucify us for it. 
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 18:29 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Boston???
thanks! hahhahahhahahahhaha
