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Topic ClosedIs There A Line Between Noise & Music?

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avestin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 17:44
A great read so far, I find my opinion to correlate with some here and getting some different perspective from others (which is what I was looking for obviuosly).
Carry on, it's an interesting discussion.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 17:52
indeed Asssf... a great read so far.  Clap  Beats the normal sh*t that passes for topics around here. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:07
I think there is a line, but it's a ragged one. For instance Frank Zappa's "Didya Get Any Onya?" From "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" is a cracking listen, and many others think so. However, music that is (arguably) far better put together such as ANYTHING by The Ramones, I find unlistenable due to the sheer looseness and grit of the music. So there's my two cents
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:17
De-Loused in the Comatorium: Music

Frances the Mute
: "The line"

Amputechture: Noise

So yes, there is a line between music and noise. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:18
 
                       Well Assaf, interesting thread, very welcoming Wink
 
Of course there is a line between noise and music but it's so subjective. I am always intrigued by the choices of progheads, why do prog metal fans love the endless scale acrobatics, why do electronic fans love the hypnotizing sound of sequencers and synthesizers, why do King Crimson fans love the nerveracking improvisations, why do Gentle Giant and Frank Zappa fans love the complexity and unorthodox approach, why do I love to be carried away by Trons, Moogs and Hammonds? And why some progheads prefer dark music with agressive lyrics and covers while others like mellow sounds and fairy tale covers? Personally I am stunned by the huge amount of prog metal fans on Prog Archives because after 15 minutes most prog metal (in the past I worked for a Dutch rock magazine, I was offered dozens of prog metal to review Ouch) is close to noise for me but Mike En Regalia & Co. will disagree about that Wink !
 


Edited by erik neuteboom - November 11 2007 at 18:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:05
Originally posted by erik neuteboom erik neuteboom wrote:

 
                       Well Assaf, interesting thread, very welcoming Wink
 
Of course there is a line between noise and music but it's so subjective. I am always intrigued by the choices of progheads, why do prog metal fans love the endless scale acrobatics, why do electronic fans love the hypnotizing sound of sequencers and synthesizers, why do King Crimson fans love the nerveracking improvisations, why do Gentle Giant and Frank Zappa fans love the complexity and unorthodox approach, why do I love to be carried away by Trons, Moogs and Hammonds? And why some progheads prefer dark music with agressive lyrics and covers while others like mellow sounds and fairy tale covers? Personally I am stunned by the huge amount of prog metal fans on Prog Archives because after 15 minutes most prog metal (in the past I worked for a Dutch rock magazine, I was offered dozens of prog metal to review Ouch) is close to noise for me but Mike En Regalia & Co. will disagree about that Wink !
 


well said Erik... another vote for the art/music ... prog.... is subjective and not written in stone

all jokes aside...  do you listen to much of the 'wacky' avant stuff Erik.. for personal or for that mag of yours.  If so what do you think of it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:12
Originally posted by Bj-1 Bj-1 wrote:

Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Originally posted by Abstrakt Abstrakt wrote:

Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more...


ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!

 
 
Zeuhl? Noise?! Unless you refer to Koenjihyakkei's second album (which isn't noise either really). Listen to Kultivator, Magma, Dun and Eskaton and you'll see that Im right.
 
Zeuhl is often very jazzy and melodic, but also with avant tendencies. NOT noiseConfused


I really don't see (er....hear...) Zeuhl as "disturbing or painful to the ears" is all.


Edited by Shakespeare - November 11 2007 at 19:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:21

All music is noise, but not all noise is music. If somthing is made for the purpose of listening its music if its just a biproduct of another activity and not intended to be listened to then its not.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:21
Great reviews btw micky, seriously hahaha WinkSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:23
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

Great reviews btw micky, seriously hahaha WinkSmile


thanks....  if you are going to review a one star album...make it one you like...and do it with style. LOL

interesting  albums though... I just rate them differently that most it seems.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:24
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.

At least, John Zorn thinks so.

Mike Patton agrees.
 
As my old aesthethic professor would say, elements that occur naturally or randomly can provoke an aesthetic experience, but do not qualify as art (or in this case music) until they are arranged into some form of order.


Is disorder a form of order?
 
Why no, they are opposites.   You either have one or the other.  It isn't art until some form of order, however loose, is imposed on it.   That's why I chose to use The Waiting Room as my example.  The first part of it sounds very random, with the band members producing various noises.  But they are hearing and reacting to what each other does and making decisions about what they are going to do or not do and that provides the structure.  But the point is that you can't call the waves crashing on the beach or wind whistling through the trees art because nobody has imposed any order (meaning) upon the experience.   Art isn't art until it is filtered through someone, however loose that filtering might be.
 
Of course that doesn't make something GOOD art, necessarily.   It's just a requirement for something to be art.
 
And that doesn't mean that you can't appreciate the waves crashing on the beach or even in your own mind impose some meaning or order on that.   It just means that that ISN'T art.


Edited by ghost_of_morphy - November 11 2007 at 19:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:29
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.

At least, John Zorn thinks so.

Mike Patton agrees.
 
As my old aesthethic professor would say, elements that occur naturally or randomly can provoke an aesthetic experience, but do not qualify as art (or in this case music) until they are arranged into some form of order.


Is disorder a form of order?
 
Why no, they are opposites.   You either have one or the other.  It isn't art until some form of order, however loose, is imposed on it.   That's why I chose to use The Waiting Room as my example.  The first part of it sounds very random, with the band members producing various noises.  But they are hearing and reacting to what each other does and making decisions about what they are going to do or not do and that provides the structure.  But the point is that you can't call the waves crashing on the beach or wind whistling through the trees art because nobody has imposed any order (meaning) upon the experience.   Art isn't art until it is filtered through someone, however loose that filtering might be.
 
Of course that doesn't make something GOOD art, necessarily.   It's just a requirement for something to be art.

I respectfully disagree.

I think that making "random" noise is in a form of order, and that order is disorder.

And I do think that the sounds of waves crashing on the beach is art. If someone recorded it, would you consider it art? Or, more specifically, music? If it was used as a song intro or as a track in an ambient song? Yes, right? (Maybe not, but just bear with me.) But does that mean that before recording equipment was available, this sound was not art? I think that it is art - and music - even without being filtered through a human being or one of his many devices.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:31
Not only is it subjective, I would say that it is also relative, the closer you are to a particular style of music the further away that line becomes. If you dislike a sub-genre then everything is noise, yet if you are a fan then only the most extreme will be noise to your ears.
 
Yes fans would never describe them as noise, yet my favourite Yes album, Relayer, is pure cacophony to me and could be pure noise to a non-fan.
 
In the realms of Avantgarde and Musique Concrète the boundary has been pushed so far to the left that it has disapeared from view, here it has been accepted that music can be dissonant, discordant, atonal and arrhythmic and still be music...
 
So by that could you state that any collection of sounds is music? No, not quite. It is only music when the artist says it is and presents it as such. (As Andu has mentioned Dada ) Duchamp's famous "Fountain" is Art because he presented it as a work of art - every other urinal ever manufactured, sold and installed is not displayed as a work of art, therefore is not Art.
 
If a seemingly random collection of found and created sounds is presented as an Artform then it is music, however if it is presented an CD of sound-effects then it is not Art and hence not music. It does not need to be modified, filtered or ordered to become music - the act of recording is enough. Once a sequence of random sounds are commited to "tape" they stop being random.
 
It does not matter whether the sounds were arranged or produced with any purpose or plan, just how they were presented.


Edited by darqdean - November 11 2007 at 19:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:42
Excellent post , Dean. And regarding to the debate from the upper posts: there is such a thing as "structured chaos".

This is one:



And another:



Now these paintings are almost a century old, the first one, and over half a century old, the second. Considering what has come after them, I could say they are very well organized chaotic structures...


Edited by andu - November 11 2007 at 20:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:48
That's what I was getting at, Andu. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:52
Thumbs%20Up Kandinsky ... I had a framed print of that over my fireplace for years. Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:53
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

And I do think that the sounds of waves crashing on the beach is art. If someone recorded it, would you consider it art? Or, more specifically, music? If it was used as a song intro or as a track in an ambient song? Yes, right? (Maybe not, but just bear with me.) But does that mean that before recording equipment was available, this sound was not art? I think that it is art - and music - even without being filtered through a human being or one of his many devices.


No. As Dean puts it, art is only that what comes from artistic intentions. What you are describing is natural beauty (as opposed to artistic beauty). BTW you're the drummer here and you should know, waves can be imitated by drums and percussion, why don't you give it a try? Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 20:18
Going back to the Waves on a Shore noise (since I introduced it Embarrassed) ... this can be regarded as music if the listener decides that it is - that would be a subjective assessment, two people sat on the beach listening to the sea would have differing views. But now the artistic intention is in the act of listening, not presenting.
 
However, if I recorded it and (tried) to sell it as music that would be an objective statement.
 
It's like the famous quote from Dracula...
Originally posted by Bram Stoker Bram Stoker wrote:

But as I listened, I heard as if from down below in the valley the howling of many wolves. The Count's eyes gleamed, and he said.

"Listen to them, the children of the night. What music they make!"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 20:21
Any art in audio form is music.  If an artist records noise, or even silence, that's music.  When someone says "that's not music!" it merely shows ignorance as to what music truly is. 

I think John Cage summed it up best: "You don't have to call it music if the term offends you."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 21:06
my ideas come very close to what Dean has said above. From an objective viewpoint, music is sound recorded for musical purposes. An interesting point 'bout natural sound in the natural environment. for me, nature is quite musical, upon many occasions I don't like listening to music in a natural environment as I feel the are so many interesting sounds I'm missing out on, especially when in under-ground train stations. While in other cases these extra additives can certainly enhance this style of anti-music. There recently was a concert in Sydney, where a group of improvisational musician played a concert on a rock platform in the bush near my parent house, integrating environmental sounds along with audience interaction into their performance.

Disorder in an interesting question. A recent concert by 'leafcutter John' demonstrates this approach quite well, imo. The instruments consisted of a laptop computer and a bike. Placed under the floor boards of the concert hall were electronic censers, which sent signals to a program (MAX/msp) running on the computer. Setup in the program were numerous pre-recorded sounds, which were triggered by John riding over the censored sections of the floor. Again the audience were encourage to participate in the undertakings, left free to meander 'round the concert hall.

Just though I would leave everyone with this interesting video 'bout the no-input musicians from the onkyo scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl8IMc-8-N8
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