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avestin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is There A Line Between Noise & Music?
    Posted: November 11 2007 at 09:14
I listen to many varied styles of music; from the most catchy and bland through more "sophisticated" and complex, heavy and brutal to the experimental, disjointed and diossonant up until what is called Noise.
I like them all, meaning, I like bands/musicians belonging to all those disciplines/styles/schools.
 
At times I am having thougts on whether there is a line between what I'd call music and simply noise which has no musical value - therefore I, like everyone else, need to define to myself what I perceive as music and from that, by rulling out what is not included, define noise or what isn't music to me.
 
However at times I have hard times making up my mind, as can be evident from listening to bands like these:
 
http://www.myspace.com/turdusmerula (I like this style very much, by the way)
http://www.myspace.com/merzbow (one of the prominent figures)
http://www.myspace.com/therealwolfeyes (also getting to like them)
http://www.supersilence.net/ (love those as well)
And there's many more....
 
There are times when I think that maybe any series of noises one makes can be recorded and presented as music.
 
Nevermind now the progressive tag, how many of you would consider this by your definition Music?
 
Where is your personal line between Noise and Music pass?
Do you have such a line?
How would you define Music and Noise?
 
 
Thanks for responding Smile
 
 


Edited by avestin - November 11 2007 at 09:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 09:28
Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.

At least, John Zorn thinks so.

Mike Patton agrees.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 09:51
I think there is a very fine line.

I go on if the sound is "organized". i.e., is that noise there for a reason? Or is it just noise?

I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 09:57
nice thread Assaf....  though I am not as wild and crazy and adventurous as you the RIO/Avant guys are...I have listened to a few in my RPI explorations. 


it is a very fine line.. one that exsits in the mind of each indidual listener...  and of the artist in question.  Music is art...  and we all interpret it differently.

another reason why prog talibans really piss me off...  take these albums..

DEMETRIO STRATOS

Concerto all'Elfo

1995

Live

Review | Album details | All reviews | Buy Music
Review by micky
[Special Collaborator Italian Prog and Art Rock Specialist]
Posted 10:06:19 AM EST, 7/1/2007

3%20stars Demetrio Stratos is well known as the front man of the fiery Italian prog group Area. Outside of Area he released a series of solo albums. I picked this album up a couple of days ago on one of my search and destroy missions in Rome looking for RPI gems. I had recently really got the bug for Area and found this album and immediately scarfed it up. I was hoping to find a another incendiary mixing of jazz, rock, electronic, and mediterranean music. Whoa.. was I surprised when I put this in.

This review is a warning...yet still a recommendation.

As I found out later after an interesting first listen hahahha, and as is noted in Stratos' bio. He was student of Fluxus and John Cage. His solo albums are very avant and are explorations into the use of the human voice as an instrument. Be warned.. again... THIS IS NOT EASY LISTENING. But it a funny way.. this ties into RPI quite well. As I noted this morning in a thread, I am a non-speaker of Italian, so an overall portion of the albums is lost upon me. The literal meaning of what the group is trying to say. What that in fact has done has prepared me for an album like this. The voice in Italian prog for became not a vehicle for literal meaning but rather a instrument in itself. Full of emotion and expression like any instrument. That is exactly what Stratos was intending to explore.

To review this album track by track is sort of pointless. Before reviewing this I read some reviews of his solo album on other sites.. I was curious just how you would review something like this. Most reviews, while entertaining in their lofty language, really say little about the music. This is an album that to me is beyond a standard review, it is indeed like trying to 'review' a painting. What you get out of this will be highly personal. There are no instruments to rave over the quality.. no way to contrast the dynamics between the way the instruments play off of each other. This is just an experience between you and Stratos. If you feel like taking a walk down the Fluxus side of life. I strongly recommend you check this out. It intriqued me to check out other of his albums, which as some of you who know my musical tastes.. should probably say more about this album that any song by song analysis could.

Giving the album three stars..and down the road may adjust that to reflect what I think of his other albums. Which I will be checking out. For serious students of 'art' and avant music only.

Michael (aka micky)

FRANCO BATTIATO

L'Egitto Prima Delle Sabbie

1978

Studio Album

Review | Album details | All reviews | Buy Music
Review by micky
[Special Collaborator Italian Prog and Art Rock Specialist]
Posted 3:27:44 PM EST, 6/27/2007

1%20stars Now before you read this review...please understand that I love the work of Franco Battiato. All phases of his creative explorations. As a musician and amateur painter in my youth I feel a kinship with an artist, and make no mistake Battiato is a musical artist and genius of the first order, and their desire to express themselves through their work. Sometimes art can connect with its audience... and sometimes it doesn't. The true mark of a connoisseur of art is appreciating the effort, even when the attempt leaves you baffled or colder than hell.

This album is probably the most notorious of Battiato's albums.. the most infamous in a string of albums that are hard for even fans of him to appreciate. During the late 70's, as I've noted in previous reviews, Battiato put out a series of albums that explored minimimalist compositions. I do say compositions with a bit of irony of course. Consider sonic experiments.. albums that were made not for the record buying public in mind, but for the sole purpose of expressing an artist's desire to push the boundaries.. both the public's and his own.

The album released in 1978 consists of two side longs. The self titled track takes up the first side. A typical listening experience can be summed up as the following....

00:01 nice intro.. an ascending run of 6 acoustic piano notes played fabulously by Antonio Ballista

00:07... again.. the same 6 notes

00:13 ...ahh....the same 6 notes

1:03... ahhhh... how much did I pay for this album... same 6 notes

1:30.. wonder what Raffaella is making for dinner?

2:09... damn she looks good in that dress

3:10 .. HAH!!!!! he only played FIVE notes that time

4:00... same six notes... the weather sure was beautiful today

4:57 wow.... two quick 6 note patterns

by the time you reach the 14:14 mark with the thunderous conclusion where the same 6 notes sections are split into two 3 notes parts. You are trembling with the release of dramatic tension.

Now we move the side two with...you guessed it.. another side long titled Sud Afternoon. Here we have two pianist trying to outdo each each other by how little they can play. Just kidding... there is more going on with this track. Variations on a root chord.. with long pauses between them. Slightly more interesting than side 1. The unofficial word from Raffaella as she sits on the couch... god this is terrible.. bah.. she's a metal-head. This is art hahaha. *kiss* Anyway.. no room for 'air' piano on this.

An easy album to review... I give it one star for the site. For fans.... I mean FANS of Battiato only. For myself.. again...I enjoy putting it on. If only to remember that if not for albums like this.. I might really think Genesis were boring hahha. 2 stars for me.

Michael (aka micky)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 10:00

^ LOVE that second review LOL

The best you can is good enough...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 10:06
This is an interesting question. Personally I feel that Merzbow has a lot more artistic value than the stuff they play on MTV, which to some (or most?) people sounds more like music. However, not all noise is music. The thing that makes some noise music is that it's not just random noise, but a composed sequence of sounds that's designed to form a musical piece. Even if the piece was improvised or put together of seemingly random noise, the fact that the artist accepts it as a complete and finished work, makes it music and art. Or, from a commercial point of view, everything that's sold as music, is music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 10:24
I am a fan of the mainstream prog scene as well as the underground experimental noise rock. Personally, i treat them both the same. They both are done by respected artists. Unfortunetly, even the MTV band of the week that has that crappy catchy tune is still music. Everything is music. Its just a matter of opinion which is appealing to the listener.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 10:46
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.

At least, John Zorn thinks so.

Mike Patton agrees.
 
As my old aesthethic professor would say, elements that occur naturally or randomly can provoke an aesthetic experience, but do not qualify as art (or in this case music) until they are arranged into some form of order.
 
Genesis -- The Waiting Room.   Exploring the fine line between music and noise.


Edited by ghost_of_morphy - November 11 2007 at 10:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 10:52
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.

At least, John Zorn thinks so.

Mike Patton agrees.
 
 
I agree on this too. I love noise, random sounds and feedback. And combining that with music makes it even better. Otomo Yoshihide and Ground Zero are good examples, combining noise, sampling and music (often jazz influenced) and making it interesting and great overall. I definitely think it's a line between noise and music, you just need the ears to handle it.
RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 11:15
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder to be sure.  Regarding harsh dissonance, there are times when I can appreciate it, and often I respect it and am interested in what it means intellectually.  But for pleasure listening I'll take more traditional melodic sound. 

It's like food.  Sure I'll try any new thing, and I can enjoy some weird stuff at the gourmet restaurant.  But for comfort food, Mom's spaghetti or stroganoff wins every time. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 11:31
Originally posted by sircosick sircosick wrote:

^ LOVE that second review LOL



Yes, especially when he calls me a metalheadAngryWinkLOLHeart....

Well, I have to say that, although I prefer some melody with my music, I also like quite a few pieces of music in which noise plays an important role - such as, for instance, Pink Floyd's "Interstellar Overdrive" or "A Saucerful of Secrets", or the whole of TMV's Frances the Mute album. However, for me the trick lies in the right balance between noise and melody, as in the aforementioned compositions. I know my aural limitations, and I am quite aware that a whole album made up of noise would put me off big time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 11:34
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.

At least, John Zorn thinks so.

Mike Patton agrees.
 
As my old aesthethic professor would say, elements that occur naturally or randomly can provoke an aesthetic experience, but do not qualify as art (or in this case music) until they are arranged into some form of order.


Is disorder a form of order?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 11:45
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

... the fact that the artist accepts it as a complete and finished work, makes it music and art....

Originally posted by fungusucantkill fungusucantkill wrote:

...Everything is music. Its just a matter of opinion which is appealing to the listener...

I agree with both of these ideas.

Personally I don't think there's a line between music and noise.

This reminds me when I play prog in my house, My mom thinks its noise  while I know it isn't. Her line between music and noise is pretty high because that kind of  "sound" isn't appealing to her. The same thing can be taken to extremes when talking about Masonna, Merzbow, Sachiko, etc.

So what I'm trying to say is that the line between music and noise is subjective.



Edited by chamberry - November 11 2007 at 12:01

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 11:56
Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 12:02
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Anything that can be digested through the ears is music.
 
Absolutely - ever listened to motorway traffic filtered by a row of houses? The sound of a water fall? Waves lapping the shore? A babbling brook? The wind blowing through autumn trees? The crackle of a roaring fire? The Air-conditioning in a grubby hotel on a hot day? The hum of a lift? The drone of the engines on a cruise ship? (it was actually an Aircraft carrier, but few have heard that)
 
Still can't understand why I paid good money for Sylvian and Czukay's Plight & Premonition though Confused
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 12:05
Originally posted by Abstrakt Abstrakt wrote:

Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more...


ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 15:58
Ah, if it's fun it's fun, that's all that matters to be. I like bleepy bloppy sounds and I like noise but I also like pretty tunes and harmonies, and there's definitely a spectrum between them.

Music, or "sound organised in time," or whatever other label you'd care to slap on it, has a lot of different functions (or even sound not intentionally organised). Some people might want music to dance to, some people want music to take drugs to, some people want music to write treatises on, some people want music to fill the background, some people want music to wind down to... some people listen to recordings of birdsong!

If you choose to listen to a certain sound, be it a Mendelssohn concerto or the wind rushing through the trees, or even a foghorn, who's to say it's any less valid as music than anything else?

And who's to say a foghorn isn't less valid than a concerto?

Many people would fiercely argue one way or the other, but I have learnt to relax and accept that not everyone wants to listen to the same things as me Tongue.


Edited by goose - November 11 2007 at 16:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 16:34
All (well, most...) Music, Painting, Sculpture, Architecture, Poetry, Prose, Dance, Theatric Performance, etc., is Art, but not all Art is Music, Painting, Poetry, or whatever. Some Art is created beyond any limits of specific techniques and aesthetics, and is usually made to strongly, painfully contradict all we have come (at a point) to think about them; this Art (whether it was Dada, Neo-Dada, Performance Art, New-Media Art, Anti-Art) was always impossible to be perceived and liked as Painting, Theatre, Poetry etc. by the people from the respective eras, though it was always drawing itself from them. We owe to these forms of intellectual courage a lot regarding creativity & renewal. It's an essential part of the cycle consisting of innovation -> masterpiece -> trend -> stagnation -> regression -> renewal. We may not like it, but it deserves a lot of respect. That's my answer to this topic. Smile

Edited by andu - November 11 2007 at 16:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 17:39
Originally posted by Shakespeare Shakespeare wrote:

Originally posted by Abstrakt Abstrakt wrote:

Everything that is disturbing or painful to the ears is noise.
To me, that's extreme Avant, Merzbow, Most Zeuhl and more...


ZEUHL!!?!?!?!?!?!

 
 
Zeuhl? Noise?! Unless you refer to Koenjihyakkei's second album (which isn't noise either really). Listen to Kultivator, Magma, Dun and Eskaton and you'll see that Im right.
 
Zeuhl is often very jazzy and melodic, but also with avant tendencies. NOT noiseConfused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2007 at 17:43
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

All (well, most...) Music, Painting, Sculpture, Architecture, Poetry, Prose, Dance, Theatric Performance, etc., is Art, but not all Art is Music, Painting, Poetry, or whatever. Some Art is created beyond any limits of specific techniques and aesthetics, and is usually made to strongly, painfully contradict all we have come (at a point) to think about them; this Art (whether it was Dada, Neo-Dada, Performance Art, New-Media Art, Anti-Art) was always impossible to be perceived and liked as Painting, Theatre, Poetry etc. by the people from the respective eras, though it was always drawing itself from them. We owe to these forms of intellectual courage a lot regarding creativity & renewal. It's an essential part of the cycle consisting of innovation -> masterpiece -> trend -> stagnation -> regression -> renewal. We may not like it, but it deserves a lot of respect. That's my answer to this topic. Smile


and a good answer it is Clap
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