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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
 Posted: November 02 2007 at 21:31 |
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LMAO, of course Neo Prog wasn't part of the originbal rog movement, neither RIO (Almost simultaneously with Neo Prog)or Post Rock (officially in 1994 with teh article of Simion Reynolds inThe Wire magazine), but all of them are sub-genres that appeared later, the evolution of the genre took to the situation of adding new genres and new bands.
But all of them are sub-genres of Progressive Rock, not independent branches with their own sub-genres. I admit that in other site structure, Prog Metal, Fusion and maybe Folk could be supra categories parallel to what we know as Progressive Rock with their own sub-genres because of their different roots, but not in PA.
Then we can agree, butr I believe M@X should modify the structure of the site if that's the path we are going to take.
Iván
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 10:58 |
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Neo not a sub-genre of prog? Well, then I guess nothing is. O.K. everyone, time to pack it all up. Someone want to grab the other end of this sofa? Oh, and the Beatles albums are mine!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 11:00 |
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"
Neo not a sub-genre of prog"
That's not what I said. I said that it's not part of the classic prog movement. Edited by MikeEnRegalia - November 03 2007 at 11:05 |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 11:37 |
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What exactly are we arguing about here??
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 11:45 |
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^ I don't know ... something about being stubborn?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:19 |
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Sadly we are discusing this:
An issue that has no relation with the original debate and no relationn with Prog Metal, but has been introduced here when it's completely out of every logic.
Acording to this scheme, Neo Prog will cease to be a Progressive Rock sub-genre to be a different thing, a hybrid between Prog and God knows what, when it's obvious for everybody that the relation between Symphonic and Neo Prog is almost one of identity.
Neo Prog is an evolution of Symphonic and for that reason a sub-genre of Progressive Rock, not a parallel entity or some kind of different category.
Simply that.
Iván, Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 03 2007 at 12:21 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:24 |
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There simply is more than one angle/perspective/point of view. Of course Neo Prog can be seen as a direct sub genre of Symphonic Prog. On the other hand it can also be seen as a second phase of prog ... for someone (like me) who doesn't like the sound of the 80s too much this can be a valid point of view. Similarly, Prog Metal can either be seen as a sub genre of Prog Rock or as a separate movement. You might be 100% sure that it is a sub genre, Certif1ed for example would probably strongly disagree.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:37 |
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The Prog Metal issue is debated everywhere, not even all the Prog literature has coincidence over this issue, but the case of Neo Prog is different, there's complete and unanimous coincidence everywhere (Well, except you).
But it will remain unchanged, yesterday's, night we had a chat with all the Neo Prog Team (the three of us
 ) to talk about other issues, and had a coincidence that this is absurd.We can talk about Prog Metal until certain point, the words Doom, Death, Thrash are like Sanscrit for me and honestly not interested in investigating more, so we don't mess in that, but Neo Prog's structure is OUR responsability and I believe we are better informed about it, and as long as we are here, the structure of Neo Prog will remain untouched.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 03 2007 at 12:39 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:41 |
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^ I never suggested that anything about Neo Prog should be changed. Why this paranoia?
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:47 |
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I don't like this talk of neo prog being seen as a subgenre of sumphonic prog. First of all, neo prog was the symphonic prog of the 80s, and would only be distinguished by its typical traits after the 80s. But even then, the styles moved away from the 80s sound. In fact, it might not be a bad idea to make 80s neo prog seperate from other genres, because it is vastly unique. Many bands carried over from the 80s to the 90s, though, so I don't think it's a workable idea. Food for thought, though.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:47 |
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BTW: Have a look at that old chart again:
http://www.e-prog.net/images/web/progmap.gif It shows what I'm trying to say: Neo Prog and Prog Metal are not part of the classic prog movement of the 70s. Simple and plain, and undeniably true. It doesn't mean that Neo Prog is not a valid sub genre of prog, but from the perspective of how the styles developed it can also be valid to separate it from those which "peaked" in the 70s. |
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:50 |
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It's not paranoia. The precedent has been set. You split one sub-genre, and that chart of yours implied another radical view. |
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:51 |
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No, it is an abstaction of Symph. Mike laid it out as if it weren't a sub-genre of prog at all. |
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2696 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:53 |
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Been reading the argument abou the definition of Neo Prog.........I am sorry I slipped into a coma a couple of times, but when you boys have finished arguing about it and reach a conclusion, be sure to e-mail all the bands and tell them what they should be doing, because god forbid that they slip outside of the rulings YOU decide!!!
utter twaddle.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 12:54 |
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The root category of all these genres is "Prog" ... I thought that was implicitly clear. |
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 13:05 |
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Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all subjective. However, this is a database. In order to make it navigable, there must be a structure. So these discussions are necessary. 
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2696 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 13:14 |
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It only works if every user has an understanding of what on earth you are talking about, when I first found PA I had NO IDEA what all these genres were, (I still don't in regard to many of them) I certainly had not heard the term NEO prog before, despite having cd racks groaning with stuff apparently from the genre.
What if a band has half an album that sounds neo and half that sounds symphonic, what if their next album gets all a bit metal or something?
Just think ,if you put them into boxes, do you expect them to stay there? and is that why some many folk don't like the new album by 'x' band, because a change of direction, a new musical thought has them in an opposing box?
at this rate each band will either make just one album, or (and some bands do do this and it makes me weep) just quite simply make the same album over, and over and over again......... just so they fit in the box.
Edited by prog-chick - November 03 2007 at 13:15 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 13:29 |
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Prog Chick, the bands make music, the sites and the critic makes the structures, in this moment we are the N° 1 site, so we make the structure of our site. For example in the case of Symphonic we coined the term 90's Symphonic Renaissance in January of this year referring to the movement in Sweden of 1991 and surprisingly found many sites using this term now, so we must be doing something well, if I remember well HT told me that even in a recent Prog Festival the term was used. So people trust Prog Archives and follows what we say, our reviews are copied in hundreds of places daily, our biographies are used even in the official sites of the bands, so with this position comes a responsibility, to make things properly, and if we don’t start to give Neo Prog it’s right place, it will never have it. Now working with Symphonic was easier, if you ask any Symph band, they will accept the Symphonic denomination with pleasure, but if you ask Neo Prog artists, 5 or 6 out of 10 will say the they play Symphonic, because Neo Prog carries the stigma of being "B" class Prog, and placing it outside the Neo Prog structure only contributes to make this problem worst. Despite whatever Mike says, this chart:
Places Neo Prog outside the parameters of Progressive Rock and doesn’t help to clean the image of the sub-genre as a 100% Prog category in the same level of Symphonic, Folk or Canterbury. That’s why we are cleaning band by band expending hours of family or free time and even if our friends believe we are crazy for “wasting” our time, and despite more than 50% of the biographies don’t exist or are one sentence long, and that’s why we care (well, also because we enjoy doing it
It's weird, because I'm in Prog since the 70's and remember the term Neo Prog being used almost two decades before Prog Archives was founded.
We didn't invented this terms, they exist, we onñy use them in the way we believe it's more proper.
That's why there are two sub-genres named Eclectic and Crossover, that reunites the bands with a versatile career that crossed several sub-genres
That's why I sent a PM to M@X about a week ago with the proposition to keep the bands in a Mother sub-genre but adding extra tags to every album when he talked me about this problem:
So we think in thiose problems also.
Thanks for your comment. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 03 2007 at 13:42 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21156 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 13:40 |
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^ ok, how about this:
Of course I know that you still won't agree with this point of view ... but that's no problem at all. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 03 2007 at 14:45 |
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^ ok, how about this:
Neo Prog goes wherever Symphonic goes, we keep Progressive Rock as it is and you do whatever you want with Prog Metal.
 Noww seriously...Why keep inventing?
There's nothing called Classic Progressive Rock, why Neo Prog apart and not RIO or Post Rock.
Leave the things how they are, they have worked for the site, it's clear (Or at least it was until we found three sub-genres almost repeated.
That's done, but the structure we have is clear enough, we don't need to invent new things because an obsession of over tagging.
My two cents.
Iván
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Are you stubborn about the genre changes?
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:
