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paolo.beenees 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 1136
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 Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:15 |
If I understand it properly, Mandrakeroot, you would use the label "RPI" the way English journalists used the word "krautrock" to group all the prog/experimental bands coming out of Germany back in the 1970s. That could be done, as both these labels referred not only to a bunch of bands, but also to a precise set of cultural, social and even political issues which these bands shared - not least, the very fact of coming from a "peripheral" Country for rock.
I agree with you, but look what happened to krautrock in PA: its band are split into several categories (from symphonic prog to prog electronic, passing through jazz-rock/fusion and the properly said "krautrock" - containing also bands which don't come from Germany at all), so that it is difficult to understand the actual links which existed between German bands of the 1970s, building up a manyfold, but also very compact scene.
I have my doubts about the idea of "national" categories being accepted in this site.
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:40 |
 paolo.beenees wrote:
If I understand it properly, Mandrakeroot, you would use the label "RPI" the way English journalists used the word "krautrock" to group all the prog/experimental bands coming out of Germany back in the 1970s. That could be done, as both these labels referred not only to a bunch of bands, but also to a precise set of cultural, social and even political issues which these bands shared - not least, the very fact of coming from a "peripheral" Country for rock.
I agree with you, but look what happened to krautrock in PA: its band are split into several categories (from symphonic prog to prog electronic, passing through jazz-rock/fusion and the properly said "krautrock" - containing also bands which don't come from Germany at all), so that it is difficult to understand the actual links which existed between German bands of the 1970s, building up a manyfold, but also very compact scene.
I have my doubts about the idea of "national" categories being accepted in this site. |
Well... It is necessary only to apply the same concept that I and Sara we apply for the HP. It is really simply!
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paolo.beenees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 1136
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:45 |
^I know it's simple. And I support the idea. Anyway, I only wanted to point out what happened to krautrock and the fact that I'm afraid that the same attitude will be reserved to RPI.
By the way, Heavy Prog is not a "national" category.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:48 |
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Please, let's keep Heavy Prog out of this... It's got nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, as far as I know, the subgenre of Krautrock is still intact, has its own team too, and no one has ever suggested splitting it up - same as Canterbury, another local-based subgenrel.
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:49 |
paolo.beenees wrote:
^I know it's simple. And I support the idea. Anyway, I only wanted to point out what happened to krautrock and the fact that I'm afraid that the same attitude will be reserved to RPI.
By the way, Heavy Prog is not a "national" category. |
National category or not... Which is the problem? The concept is a concept that it goes well for a lot of Prog genres.
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paolo.beenees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 1136
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:57 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Please, let's keep Heavy Prog out of this... It's got nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, as far as I know, the subgenre of Krautrock is still intact, has its own team too, and no one has ever suggested splitting it up - same as Canterbury, another local-based subgenrel. |
Honestly, Krautrock has been split: if I want to read information about the Tangerine Dream, for instance, I have to search the category "prog electronic", while for the Popol Vuh I have to consult the category "Krautrock" and for the Kraan "Jazz Rock/Fusion". Actually, those three bands used to work close-at-hand. In his book about the Krautrock, Julian Cope deals with Can, Tangerine Dream, Faust, Kraftwerk and many others in the same pages.
The situation is very similar to the Italian one, where very different bands (think about Area, Sensations' Fix, Jacula and Le Orme, just to say a few of them) are normally perceived as part of a "whole", a scene different from any other.
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 13:57 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Please, let's keep Heavy Prog out of this... It's got nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, as far as I know, the subgenre of Krautrock is still intact, has its own team too, and no one has ever suggested splitting it up - same as Canterbury, another local-based subgenrel. |
You have reason in all points. In fact Heavy Rock is a trasversal genres with ramifications in other genres, also in Prog Metal(!!!). In my opinion (and in Sara opinion, that forged my opinion) Heavy prog is a family and not a genre. In this seat I limit to observe this but Raffa knows of thing I am speaking. and I know that understands very well the purpose of this mine (and Sara) classification. And please we leave out of the Heavy prog, that I use like example only because I see it different from PA and use my version of HP like example.
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 14:02 |
paolo.beenees wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Please, let's keep Heavy Prog out of this... It's got nothing to do with the issue at hand. However, as far as I know, the subgenre of Krautrock is still intact, has its own team too, and no one has ever suggested splitting it up - same as Canterbury, another local-based subgenrel. |
Honestly, Krautrock has been split: if I want to read information about the Tangerine Dream, for instance, I have to search the category "prog electronic", while for the Popol Vuh I have to consult the category "Krautrock" and for the Kraan "Jazz Rock/Fusion". Actually, those three bands used to work close-at-hand. In his book about the Krautrock, Julian Cope deals with Can, Tangerine Dream, Faust, Kraftwerk and many others in the same pages.
The situation is very similar to the Italian one, where very different bands (think about Area, Sensations' Fix, Jacula and Le Orme, just to say a few of them) are normally perceived as part of a "whole", a scene different from any other. |
True. But not all true. In fact in this case the predominant part of sub genres wins only because since its creation has plainly said thing is the Krautrock for PA. It does done not happen for the RPI. All here. And, in fact, in PA the Krautrock never is changed. While the RPI iyes, at least like concept. That now we are creating in definitive manner.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17190
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 15:40 |
Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding things. Is there actually talk of dissolving the "Italian Symph" genre and moving those bands elsewhere? 
Or am I misunderstanding these posts?
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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andrea
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 20 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 2071
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 16:07 |
Finnforest wrote:
Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding things. Is there actually talk of dissolving the "Italian Symph" genre and moving those bands elsewhere?
Or am I misunderstanding these posts? |
The usual talks I fear...
The problem is that some sub-genres (like ISP) are not well defined (not yet!)...
Edited by andrea - November 02 2007 at 16:13
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: November 02 2007 at 16:22 |
andrea wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding things. Is there actually talk of dissolving the "Italian Symph" genre and moving those bands elsewhere?
Or am I misunderstanding these posts? |
The usual talks I fear...
The problem is that some sub-genres (like ISP) are not well defined (not yet!)...
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In fact I and Sara we have open a thread on the HP that it does pivot on the concept of family. So I decided to apply that concept also for the RPI. The concept is simple: same musical mentality in the treatment of the songs (and not only sound, structures and similar)= Genre family. So, in the case of HP is simple. ELP is Symphonic Prog but with Heavy sound. Ok. In this case the classification of ELP is: Prog Family: Symphonic Prog; Heavy Prog Home: Symphonic Heavy prog. So for Wishbone Ash: Prog Family: Prog Related; Heavy Prog Home: related Heavy Prog. All with one list: Heavy prog Family. The example is this:
HEAVY PROG FAMILY:
SYMPHONIC HEAVY PROG:
....
ELP
...
related HEAVY PROG:
...
Wishbone Ash...
CLASSIC HEAVY PROG:
...
Atomic Rooster
...
And this is an example. Nevertheless it would go used the system of PA, that even if blundered, simplifies the things.
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Lady In Black
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 183
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Posted: November 03 2007 at 07:16 |
Mandrakeroot wrote:
andrea wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding things. Is there actually talk of dissolving the "Italian Symph" genre and moving those bands elsewhere?
Or am I misunderstanding these posts? |
The usual talks I fear...
The problem is that some sub-genres (like ISP) are not well defined (not yet!)...
|
In fact I and Sara we have open a thread on the HP that it does pivot on the concept of family. So I decided to apply that concept also for the RPI. The concept is simple: same musical mentality in the treatment of the songs (and not only sound, structures and similar)= Genre family. So, in the case of HP is simple. ELP is Symphonic Prog but with Heavy sound. Ok. In this case the classification of ELP is: Prog Family: Symphonic Prog; Heavy Prog Home: Symphonic Heavy prog. So for Wishbone Ash: Prog Family: Prog Related; Heavy Prog Home: related Heavy Prog. All with one list: Heavy prog Family. The example is this:
HEAVY PROG FAMILY:
SYMPHONIC HEAVY PROG:
....
ELP
...
related HEAVY PROG:
...
Wishbone Ash...
CLASSIC HEAVY PROG:
...
Atomic Rooster
...
And this is an example. Nevertheless it would go used the system of PA, that even if blundered, simplifies the things. |
Exact. It's difficult to explain a so simple concept because not all understand it to the same manner, to this point of its introduction. But in the thread of HP (in the this forum's section) is used this concept for a great Prog sub genre: Heavy Prog. And yes, for me (and Andrea) is a genre also with Cream, Hendrix and Mountain plus Ash, Purple and Rainbow and Steve Morse (of course!).
But this position is presaging of a lot controversial and contrasting positions than I don't want to light and feed.
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8602
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 01:13 |
I hate to interupt, but I need to "appreciate some prog from Italy".
I'm feeding a big addiction for music; Italy and Japan seem to be my main foci right now. I am in the unusual position of "more money than time" so I am trying to absorb quite a bit under the circumstances. I recently posted about some purchases.
Tapfret wrote:
Maxophone
Alphataurus
Le Orme - Uomo Di Pezza
Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
Murple - Io Sono Murple
Corte Dei Miracoli - Corte Dei Miracoli
Buon Vecchio Charlie
Semiramis - Dedicato A Frazz |
This was roughly 6 weeks ago. No reviews yet (need more stew time) but so far, of these the one that really stands out is Alphataurus. Outstanding blend of rich synthy prog and heavy 70's rock. Museo Rosenbach is similar in feel, but not quite hitting the same spot for me. Semiramis also struck a note, especially when I found out how old they were at the time.
Now on to even more recent purchases:
Franco Battiato - Fetus
- Pollution
New Trolls - Atomic System
Area - Arbeit Macht Frei
I happened on the Battiato CD's at a local store, really surprised at how much I am enjoying them based on previous clips I've heard. NT and Area just arrived today.
I also happened on a $5 copy of the re-mastered Suspiria. Goblin in DTS 6.1 is pretty wild.
Any thoughts on this stuff?
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 01:36 |
"more money than time"
**envy**
You've found yourself some excellent stuff. not a single bad egg in the bunch (typical with Italian prog) though I'm not much of a Battiato fan. The great thing with these records is that they will have a long shelf-life - you can get a lot of milage before you need to go on another buying-spree....so take your time, listen, and absorb....and I'll look forward to your reviews, especially Alphataurus. I ain't gots that one yet.
Cheers
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17190
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 09:18 |
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Great stuff Tapfret! Will look forward to your reviews. Semiramis is a real roller coaster ride for sure, awesome.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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silvertree
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 31 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 317
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 15:17 |
Alphataurus
Le Orme - Uomo Di Pezza
Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
are my 3 favourites in the list ! Excellent choices !
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 18:44 |
Tapfret wrote:
I hate to interupt, but I need to "appreciate some prog from Italy".
I'm feeding a big addiction for music; Italy and
Japan seem to be my main foci right now. I am in the unusual
position of "more money than time" so I am trying to absorb quite
a bit under the circumstances. I recently posted about some
purchases.
Tapfret wrote:
Maxophone
Alphataurus
Le Orme - Uomo Di Pezza
Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
Murple - Io Sono Murple
Corte Dei Miracoli - Corte Dei Miracoli
Buon Vecchio Charlie
Semiramis - Dedicato A Frazz |
This was roughly 6 weeks ago. No reviews yet (need more stew
time) but so far, of these the one that really stands out is
Alphataurus. Outstanding blend of rich synthy prog and heavy 70's
rock. Museo Rosenbach is similar in feel, but not quite hitting
the same spot for me. Semiramis also struck a note, especially
when I found out how old they were at the time.
Now on to even more recent purchases:
Franco Battiato - Fetus
- Pollution
New Trolls - Atomic System
Area - Arbeit Macht Frei
I happened on the Battiato CD's at a local store, really
surprised at how much I am enjoying them based on previous clips I've
heard. NT and Area just arrived today.
I also happened on a $5 copy of the re-mastered Suspiria. Goblin in DTS 6.1 is pretty wild.
Any thoughts on this stuff?
|
I'm a huge fan of Baittiato's stuff.. and you got.. the two
least favorite of his albums for me. If you like them and want to go
deeper.. let me know and I'll stear you... and if you don't and still
want to explore.. because from the next album on...they sound nothing
like those two.. let me know again. So just .... let me know what
you think of the albums... 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8602
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Posted: November 13 2007 at 02:38 |
micky wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
I hate to interupt, but I need to "appreciate some prog from Italy".
I'm feeding a big addiction for music; Italy and Japan seem to be my main foci right now. I am in the unusual position of "more money than time" so I am trying to absorb quite a bit under the circumstances. I recently posted about some purchases.
Tapfret wrote:
Maxophone
Alphataurus
Le Orme - Uomo Di Pezza
Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
Murple - Io Sono Murple
Corte Dei Miracoli - Corte Dei Miracoli
Buon Vecchio Charlie
Semiramis - Dedicato A Frazz |
This was roughly 6 weeks ago. No reviews yet (need more stew time) but so far, of these the one that really stands out is Alphataurus. Outstanding blend of rich synthy prog and heavy 70's rock. Museo Rosenbach is similar in feel, but not quite hitting the same spot for me. Semiramis also struck a note, especially when I found out how old they were at the time.
Now on to even more recent purchases:
Franco Battiato - Fetus
- Pollution
New Trolls - Atomic System
Area - Arbeit Macht Frei
I happened on the Battiato CD's at a local store, really surprised at how much I am enjoying them based on previous clips I've heard. NT and Area just arrived today.
I also happened on a $5 copy of the re-mastered Suspiria. Goblin in DTS 6.1 is pretty wild.
Any thoughts on this stuff?
|
I'm a huge fan of Baittiato's stuff.. and you got.. the two least favorite of his albums for me. If you like them and want to go deeper.. let me know and I'll stear you... and if you don't and still want to explore.. because from the next album on...they sound nothing like those two.. let me know again. So just .... let me know what you think of the albums...
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It was one of those situations where I really had not thought of buying any of his albums (hadn't even heard of him until I got to PA) but found them out of the blue at a local record stores' international section. Had to buy them.
The albums are not thick with composition or virtuosity, they just have very peculiar almost RIO/Avant character to them that just make them very enjoyable to listen too.
I'll just take a wild stab that you would probably recommend "Sulle corde di Aries". What others?
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Lady In Black
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 183
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Posted: November 15 2007 at 05:34 |
Tapfret wrote:
micky wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
I hate to interupt, but I need to "appreciate some prog from Italy".
I'm feeding a big addiction for music; Italy and Japan seem to be my main foci right now. I am in the unusual position of "more money than time" so I am trying to absorb quite a bit under the circumstances. I recently posted about some purchases.
Tapfret wrote:
Maxophone
Alphataurus
Le Orme - Uomo Di Pezza
Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
Murple - Io Sono Murple
Corte Dei Miracoli - Corte Dei Miracoli
Buon Vecchio Charlie
Semiramis - Dedicato A Frazz |
This was roughly 6 weeks ago. No reviews yet (need more stew time) but so far, of these the one that really stands out is Alphataurus. Outstanding blend of rich synthy prog and heavy 70's rock. Museo Rosenbach is similar in feel, but not quite hitting the same spot for me. Semiramis also struck a note, especially when I found out how old they were at the time.
Now on to even more recent purchases:
Franco Battiato - Fetus
- Pollution
New Trolls - Atomic System
Area - Arbeit Macht Frei
I happened on the Battiato CD's at a local store, really surprised at how much I am enjoying them based on previous clips I've heard. NT and Area just arrived today.
I also happened on a $5 copy of the re-mastered Suspiria. Goblin in DTS 6.1 is pretty wild.
Any thoughts on this stuff?
|
I'm a huge fan of Baittiato's stuff.. and you got.. the two least favorite of his albums for me. If you like them and want to go deeper.. let me know and I'll stear you... and if you don't and still want to explore.. because from the next album on...they sound nothing like those two.. let me know again. So just .... let me know what you think of the albums...
|
It was one of those situations where I really had not thought of buying any of his albums (hadn't even heard of him until I got to PA) but found them out of the blue at a local record stores' international section. Had to buy them.
The albums are not thick with composition or virtuosity, they just have very peculiar almost RIO/Avant character to them that just make them very enjoyable to listen too.
I'll just take a wild stab that you would probably recommend "Sulle corde di Aries". What others? |
Well... All 70's Battiato discography are great for a great recommended (ouch... f**kin' me....! Because the 80's and 90's Avant Garde POP and Classical discography... No?).
But seriously... All Battiato phase produce great music, in the respective musical fields!
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memowakeman
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 19 2005
Location: Mexico City
Status: Offline
Points: 13032
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Posted: November 15 2007 at 23:22 |
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Actually i am really looking forward to listen to more Battiato albums, and buy some
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Follow me on twitter @memowakeman
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All Prog From Italy Appreciation Thread
