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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 22:01
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I have one suggestion: Can we change the star definitions to say "rock" instead of "prog" or "progressive."  There are now many albums here that I would consider "essential to a rock collection" but are most certainly not "essential to a prog collection" or a "masterpiece of progressive music." 

Just a suggestion.  If the site wants to move to a wider inclusion of mainstream bands, they should adjust that terminology accordingly, no?

Have fun OZ fans!
I'm p*ssed off! Angry
 
No, not at Sabbath's inclusion (I'm a big boy, and it's hardly the first such "losing" case I've disputed -- c'est la vie Smile) but at the fact that I just laboriously typed an hour-long post (I type slowly) in support of what Finnforest said above about the words in the ratings, but the damned server timed out and it disappeared INTO THE VOID! AngryAngry Aaaarrrgghhhh!
 
 (deep breath)Embarrassed
 
 
Suffice to say: don't hold your breath waiting for that LONG overdue change, Finnforest my friend, because I for one have been asking for precisely that, pretty much since day one (and I've been here a while)!
 
By all accounts, this site does not  list only prog music (if that was ever the case -- this broader reach is far from new), so why do we still insist on essentially "inviting" non-prog artists to compete for ratings points in a skewed game where they technically don't even qualify for any grade above a "C" (three stars)???Confused
 
It is blatantly unfair, counter-intuitive, and the average Joe review scanner probably doesn't even read those generic words that get forcibly appended to OUR reviews.
 
Admittedly, I will still give top marks to a non-prog, classic rock album which I find worthy as fine MUSIC (and then I feel compelled to digress and explain that in my review), but many won't (and say as much), and who the heck wants to buy music which is (apparently) only C-grade?Confused
 
Dump those ratings words, or at least greatly simplify them, and remove all references to "prog" in them!


Edited by Peter - October 13 2007 at 00:27
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Atkingani View Drop Down
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Points: 12288 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 22:11
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by A B Negative A B Negative wrote:

I first found Prog Archives when I was looking for information about Krautrock. Although I was familiar with most of the "big" prog groups and some of the less well known,  I had no idea just how much prog was out there. PA has helped me discover some fantastic music.
 
If someone stumbles upon PA while looking for information about Black Sabbath, I reckon it can go two ways. Either they'll say "Sabbath aren't prog" and look elsewhere or, like me, they'll find out about fantastic music they never knew existed.
 
That's the attitude! Clap
 
Either non-yet-prog-fans will stumble with Sabbath on their searches and find some incredible music (then we gain more people to the prog cause) or "elitists" will leave PA because of this inclusion... Well, it's my opinion, that ANYWAY WE WIN HERE. Evil%20SmileWinkTongue
 
Teo, no one has to leave PA because Black Sabbath was added in the "related" category... all people, "elitists" or not, have more than 3,000 bands to enjoy - it will take an entire life to appreciate them all, I'm quite sure!
Guigo

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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 22:31
Stern%20Smile Now, before I really DO go off the rails on a crazy train Wacko, I'm going to have a cold beer (this unopened one has long since gone warm), bid you all a good night, and play some nice, mindless RA2! Big%20smile
 
 
All abooooaaard! Hahahahaha....
 


Edited by Peter - October 12 2007 at 22:38
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 23:33
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Well guys, you know I'm not in favor of the inclusion of BS, but the chief has spoken and we must accept, there's no use for more debate.
 
The T wrote:
Quote
That's the attitude! Clap
 
Either non-yet-prog-fans will stumble with Sabbath on their searches and find some incredible music (then we gain more people to the prog cause) or "elitists" will leave PA because of this inclusion... Well, it's my opinion, that ANYWAY WE WIN HERE. Evil%20SmileWinkTongue
 
BTW: T please, as we know how to lose and accept some facts we don't agree with, you must learn to win, all those cheers, rubbing in our faces and calling us elitists that must leave Prog Archives, cause more problems, please avoid them.
 
Knowing how to win is harder than knowing how to loose.
 
Iván
 
I guess my words weren't the right ones...I apologize... What I wanted my word to mean is, and please I hope I'm understood now: if there are people that, just because of BS inclusion in PA, think they have to leave PA, OK! We win. I never intended, NEVER EVER, to say "those who opposed BS inclusion are elitists and must leave". NO! I intended to say that people that can't take the addition of a polemical band and leave because of that are certainly not the kind of music fans I belive are better for PA. Please understand me. If you Ivan (and Atkingani, please) tought I meant anything against you or any other detractor of Sabbath, I APOLOGIZE, with all my respect. But I won't take back my statement that those who leave PA just because ONE band is added, well, they're better off GONE. It's like if I have left when Coheed and Cambria were added. Would I have been the right kind of person to help PA? Would I have even been considered for collaborator? No.
 
That's what I meant and please, TRIPLE apologies if you misunderstood me. Smile
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 02:50
I have to say I'm surprised this thread is still open, and no blood has been shed during the night... Might it be that people have become reasonable in the meantime?WinkLOL

However, I can't deny I would've been happier if someone had taken notice of my post, which dealt with the issue of the ratings for PP/PR albums... I suppose I'll just have to start a new thread about it!
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Points: 4252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 03:09
pleased as i am to see one of my favourite heavy rock bands be included in  PA, is it not a bit irritating that experienced reviewers give their prog related albums 5 stars for "essential masterpiece of progressive music" .....and get away with it...??Confused


Edited by mystic fred - October 13 2007 at 03:25
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 03:13
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

pleased as i am to see one of my favourite heavy rock bands be included in  PA, it is a bit irritating that experienced reviewers give their prog related albums 5 stars for "essential masterpiece of progressive music" .....and get away with it...??Confused


See Peter's thread in the Help Improve the Site section, Steve... I think it's time to address the question seriously. I have always given those albums 5 stars if I thought they deserved them as masterpieces of MUSIC. However, I agree that the wording should be changed once and for all, otherwise the controversy will never end.
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Points: 4252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 03:36
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

pleased as i am to see one of my favourite heavy rock bands be included in  PA, it is a bit irritating that experienced reviewers give their prog related albums 5 stars for "essential masterpiece of progressive music" .....and get away with it...??Confused


See Peter's thread in the Help Improve the Site section, Steve... I think it's time to address the question seriously. I have always given those albums 5 stars if I thought they deserved them as masterpieces of MUSIC. However, I agree that the wording should be changed once and for all, otherwise the controversy will never end.
 
will check it, but , theoretically some prog related albums could, if enough 5 star ratings are given, could overshadow the 100%prog groups and push them down in the ratings, we could then end up with for example Led Zep, Iron Maiden Sabbath and Deep Purple at the top of the ratings on a prog rock site, and some worthy prog bands shoved into obscurity.?
 
much as i value pr/pp on this site as it serves the influences and development of prog, i suggest allowing NO ratings for proto prog and prog related at all...?
Smile
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Points: 10617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 04:01
I guess since I'm reading this I should throw in an opinion too, I think the idea of different ratings words for bands like Zep or Sabbath is a good one.

Edited by Easy Money - October 13 2007 at 04:03
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 06:49
So far this is hardly disgraceful:
 
Black Sabbath >> A little low 1970 3.83
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(13 ratings) 		Studio Album
Paranoid 1970 4.23
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Master Of Reality >> Actually I am surprised at this low rating 1971 3.09
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(7 ratings) 		Studio Album
Volume Four >> I don't get this should beunder 4Star 1972 4.06
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(9 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath 1973 4.14
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabotage >> This one is a bit too high but WTF 1975 4.54
Essential:%20a%20masterpiece%20of%20progressive%20music
(6 ratings) 		Studio Album
We Sold Our Soul for Rock and Roll 1975 4.00
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(2 ratings) 		Boxset / Compilation
Technical Ecstasy >> Poor album, poor rating 1976 2.33
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Never Say Die >> Poor album, poor rating 1978 2.00
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Heaven and Hell >> I expected this closer to 4Star 1980 3.38
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(5 ratings) 		Studio Album
 
 
No abuse really!! And in one week time, it'll have blown over!!!
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 4252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 06:58
^ i always liked "Technical Ecstasy" and  "Never Say Die" - not normal Sabs material admittedly but not poor. Ermm
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Points: 5308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:00
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

^ i always liked "Technical Ecstasy" and  "Never Say Die" - not normal Sabs material admittedly but not poor. Ermm
 
I agree, there are at least 4 songs on each of those I am really fond of.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:06
I don-t see why we should rejoice or anything at an album having a low rating just because it-s not prog... I am afraid that, in my very odd opinion, it sounds a little bit like a form of fanaticism. Mind you, Hugues or anyone else, this remark is NOT directed at you... However, nothing and no one will stop me from giving 5 stars to Heaven and Hell, if I ever get to reviewing it. The fact of giving those albums a lower rating because they-re not prog is absurd to me, as I made it abundantly clear in that other thread in Help Improve the site.
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Points: 18292 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:09
Black Sabbath >> Far too low, this one is a masterpiece 1970 3.83
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(13 ratings) 		Studio Album
Paranoid > This one's a masterpiece aswell, but better rating 1970 4.23
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Master Of Reality >> No masterpiece, but still deserves a 3.5, at least 1971 3.09
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(7 ratings) 		Studio Album
Volume Four >> Excellent Rating, i agree all the way! 1972 4.06
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(9 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath > Could've been a bit higher, still good 1973 4.14
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabotage >> A good album, but not as good as the rating says 1975 4.54
Essential:%20a%20masterpiece%20of%20progressive%20music
(6 ratings) 		Studio Album
We Sold Our Soul for Rock and Roll 1975 4.00
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(2 ratings) 		Boxset / Compilation
Technical Ecstasy >> Come on, this one deserves 3 stars! 1976 2.33
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Never Say Die >> Far too low, this one's excellent! 1978 2.00
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Heaven and Hell >> Good rating, could've been a four instead. 1980 3.38
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(5 ratings) 		Studio Album
 
Wink
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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:15
Originally posted by Abstrakt Abstrakt wrote:

Black Sabbath >> Far too low, this one is a masterpiece 1970 3.83
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(13 ratings) 		Studio Album
Paranoid > This one's a masterpiece aswell, but better rating 1970 4.23
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Master Of Reality >> No masterpiece, but still deserves a 3.5, at least 1971 3.09
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(7 ratings) 		Studio Album
Volume Four >> Excellent Rating, i agree all the way! 1972 4.06
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(9 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath > Could've been a bit higher, still good 1973 4.14
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabotage >> A good album, but not as good as the rating says 1975 4.54
Essential:%20a%20masterpiece%20of%20progressive%20music
(6 ratings) 		Studio Album
We Sold Our Soul for Rock and Roll 1975 4.00
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(2 ratings) 		Boxset / Compilation
Technical Ecstasy >> Come on, this one deserves 3 stars! 1976 2.33
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Never Say Die >> Far too low, this one's excellent! 1978 2.00
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Heaven and Hell >> Good rating, could've been a four instead. 1980 3.38
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(5 ratings) 		Studio Album
 
Wink
 
 
COPYCAT!!!!  Tongue
 
 
LOL
 
 
 
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 4252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:19
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

I don-t see why we should rejoice or anything at an album having a low rating just because it-s not prog... I am afraid that, in my very odd opinion, it sounds a little bit like a form of fanaticism. Mind you, Hugues or anyone else, this remark is NOT directed at you... However, nothing and no one will stop me from giving 5 stars to Heaven and Hell, if I ever get to reviewing it. The fact of giving those albums a lower rating because they-re not prog is absurd to me, as I made it abundantly clear in that other thread in Help Improve the site.
 
agreed "Heaven and Hell" is a masterpiece, but is it  an "essential masterpiece of progressive music" ...? Smile
 
 
 
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Points: 18292 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:23
As the Sabbath Fanboy that i am, i added:
Live at Last 1980 4.00
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(1 ratings) 		Live
 
Big%20smile
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:26
Steve, it is not... I think I made it clear enough in the other thread. It doesn-t make any sense to give great albums lower ratings just because they-re not prog. It would make much more sense to scrap the category altogether.
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:32
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Abstrakt Abstrakt wrote:

Black Sabbath >> Far too low, this one is a masterpiece 1970 3.83
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(13 ratings) 		Studio Album
Paranoid > This one's a masterpiece aswell, but better rating 1970 4.23
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Master Of Reality >> No masterpiece, but still deserves a 3.5, at least 1971 3.09
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(7 ratings) 		Studio Album
Volume Four >> Excellent Rating, i agree all the way! 1972 4.06
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(9 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath > Could've been a bit higher, still good 1973 4.14
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(10 ratings) 		Studio Album
Sabotage >> A good album, but not as good as the rating says 1975 4.54
Essential:%20a%20masterpiece%20of%20progressive%20music
(6 ratings) 		Studio Album
We Sold Our Soul for Rock and Roll 1975 4.00
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(2 ratings) 		Boxset / Compilation
Technical Ecstasy >> Come on, this one deserves 3 stars! 1976 2.33
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Never Say Die >> Far too low, this one's excellent! 1978 2.00
Collectors/fans%20only
(3 ratings) 		Studio Album
Heaven and Hell >> Good rating, could've been a four instead. 1980 3.38
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(5 ratings) 		Studio Album
 
Wink
 
 
COPYCAT!!!!  Tongue
 
 
LOL
 
 
 
 


I really can't believe you all.... albums don't 'deserve' any particular rating.  IF so ..what is the point of reviewing...  just award the damn album 5 stars.. because it is inluential or popular. 

sorry to see my example has been ignored.  You can review a non prog album accurately and fairly based on it's prog quotient.  That is fair to all... unless the only thing that matters.. is what the damn ranking is...


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Points: 7024 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2007 at 07:54
Much though I like Sabbath, their connection with prog is too tenuous to include them and nothing in Sean's biopic convinces me otherwise.

Add to that Iron Maiden, The Beatles, Radiohead, Messhugah, Led Zeppelin and The Who and this site is stretching the boundaries of what is prog, or even prog related much too far.

Yet some bands with really progressive tendencies (Toto is an obvious candidate) are not here.
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