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Finnforest View Drop Down
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 10:46
I just want to say this.

I respectfully disagree with the inclusion of bands like Sabbath, Who, and several others because I am simply in favor of a more purist site. 

That said, if these bands are here, I will have my fun reviewing some of their workBig%20smile as I'm a big fan of some of them. 

But I have one suggestion: Can we change the star definitions to say "rock" instead of "prog" or "progressive."  There are now many albums here that I would consider "essential to a rock collection" but are most certainly not "essential to a prog collection" or a "masterpiece of progressive music." 

Just a suggestion.  If the site wants to move to a wider inclusion of mainstream bands, they should adjust that terminology accordingly, no?

Have fun OZ fans!
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Points: 66256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 10:50
Prog Related probably needs its own set of star definitions replacing the "prog" with the "rock".
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Points: 7659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:04
 
 
                                                My words about the inclusion:
 
                         
 
                               Prog Archives and ...changes LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL !
 
 


Edited by erik neuteboom - October 12 2007 at 11:05
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Points: 2664 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:14
Originally posted by erik neuteboom erik neuteboom wrote:

 
 
                                                My words about the inclusion:
 
                         
 
                               Prog Archives and ...changes LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL !
 
 


ClapLOLWink
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CYMRU AM BYTH
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Points: 66256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:17

Not sure if this was the point of the above post, but I do really like "Changes" from Black Sabbath.  That is a great song.
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Points: 12288 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:26
PA front page: 3,087 bands (as of today)... it means that almost 100 bands were added in the last 45 days! I'm quite sure that 98% of them are real PROG acts... but who cares. Cry
 
Ah! and then we have this "related" addition which took 5 threads, 2 polls, many PMs (certainly), people leaving the site. "What did we do that was wrong?"
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:37
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The category "Prog-related" probably always has and always will cause some of the most controversial additions to the Archives.  With the other genres, the controversy is usually not whether the band is prog or not, but whether the band is prog in this genre or that genre (or any one of 6 genres depending on the band). 
 
Prog-related is a compromise category where a band can be placed when there is enough interest in the prog community to include them but they aren't progressive enough to be included as a full-fledged progressive rock band.  As has been stated in other threads "Prog-related" does not equal "Prog". 
 
In regards to Black Sabbath, I personally have always considered them to be a heavy metal band (one of if not the founding heavy metal band(s)).  Do I think that they should be referenced on a progressive rock website as "Prog-related"?  Yes.  Why? Because progressive metal is a category on the Prog Archives website and Black Sabbath as a founding band of heavy metal have much in common with many of the bands in the Prog Metal genre.  Unfortunately, why is this a problem?  Because where do you draw the line with including bands who have either influenced prog bands or who have created some prog songs but for the most part are non-prog.  Should it just be the older bands that founded heavy metal and had some progressive elements or should late arrivers to the heavy metal scene also be included because they are cited as a source of influence to a truly progressive band?  The great thing about the Prog Archives site is that bands are not added willy-nilly.  People with many years of experience in listening to music debate the merits of various bands and only include bands after much discussion and debate.  As has been stated in this case, the owner of the site has approved the inclusion of Black Sabbath so that is that.  Obviously it is going to cause controversy because "if  Black Sabbath were truly prog-related why did he wait until now to add them".   I for one think that it is good that a lot of thought was put into this decision before it was finally made. 
 
I believe that most PA users who enjoy the Prog Metal and Heavy Prog categories are probably happy to have Black Sabbath on PA so that they can review their albums and express their opinions on this great band.  Those that don't like these categories of prog are probably not too happy to have Black Sabbath included.  This is unfortunately a problem with the huge range of music that is covered under the umbrella of prog. 
 
In conclusion, all that I can say is that I hope that everyone respects the sites guidelines for preparing reviews.  If you have actually listened to Black Sabbath albums and you truly do not like them then feel free to give them a bad review.  If you have never listened to their albums but you just don't like the idea of them being on PA, then don't review them because it is not fair to people who use PA as a reference source.  On the other side of the debate the same should hold true for positive reviewers, if you haven't heard the albums then don't give them a positive review just because you want to counteract nonsense negative reviews.  Also, remember as great as some of their albums might be, the 5-star category as a PROG-ROCK Masterpiece should probably never apply to a Black Sabbath album unless you truly believe that the album is a work of Progressive Rock. 



I'll only say two words to you, Scott: THANK YOUClap.

If more people here (and in the world in general) adopted your attitude, the site (and the world) would be a much better place.

However, as James (Finnforest) said, I think it is also time to change the parameters for PP and PR reviews, and take that word 'prog' away. In fact, I have never given less than 5 stars to those PP and PR albums (like "Made in Japan", "Led Zeppelin 4" or "Rising") that I consider to be masterpieces of MUSIC, just because they're not prog. Too many people give them low ratings for that reason, and I think it's not fair. The categories are here to stay, but that doesn't mean the rating of the albums has to suffer just to show the world they are not fully prog. Just my two cents, of course...
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Points: 66256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:42

Thank you for that info Atkingani.  I would have added something to that effect in my longwinded post but was not aware of the actual statistics.  I suspected something to that effect though.  I was kind of figuring for every 100 bands added there might be 2 or 3 that are somewhat controversial.  But I guess that these are the ones that will be most talked about because there is controversy.  Such is a "prog's" life.  Personally I think that those of you that are running this site are doing an excellent job, and that this decision that wasn't something that was taken lightly.

 
 
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Points: 19221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:47
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

I have never given less than 5 stars to those PP and PR albums (like "Made in Japan", "Led Zeppelin 4" or "Rising") that I consider to be masterpieces of MUSIC, just because they're not prog.
 
I agree with you entirely, Raff....Clap... in fact, I have just graded ALL the Black Sabbath albums which have been added thus far (with the exception of Seventh Star & Eternal Idol, which I've never heardEmbarrassed)... and if you're interested, gave 5 stars to Sabotage, my favourite Sabbath album....Clap


Edited by fandango - October 12 2007 at 11:48
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Points: 1594 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 12:36
I first found Prog Archives when I was looking for information about Krautrock. Although I was familiar with most of the "big" prog groups and some of the less well known,  I had no idea just how much prog was out there. PA has helped me discover some fantastic music.
 
If someone stumbles upon PA while looking for information about Black Sabbath, I reckon it can go two ways. Either they'll say "Sabbath aren't prog" and look elsewhere or, like me, they'll find out about fantastic music they never knew existed.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 14:51
Spot on ABN, the latter is what we hope will happen!
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Points: 2078 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 15:14

With the points made about adding Sabbath make sence,though i feel 50/50 about their actuall genre.But i deffintley dont take it as serious to argue about it and seeing their related to prog why not put them in prog-related.



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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:09
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

yerkwantai has given two one stars unwritten reviews, a bit suspicious if you ask me.
Looking at his ratings for other bands & albums I think he's being consistant in his views


What? that he hates music in general?Big%20smile


can't fault his taste in music...very consise reviews LOL

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=134190


 or fault those who rate, as I do, based on the premise this is a prog site.


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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:15
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Prog Related probably needs its own set of star definitions replacing the "prog" with the "rock".


and why don't we change the name of the site as well LOL  It is a prog site... personally I think a few 1 star reviews based on the 'prog quotient' of the music, isn't going to have people jumping off bridges.


Edited by micky - October 12 2007 at 17:15
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:20
as a further thought on that... if the albums are to be judged the same way... why then did the site remove non prog albums from the most popular  album list.  Those who call for the 'same' means of ranking and reviewing should also accept to have non prog album near the top of the album list.. on a prog site.
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Points: 16435 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:22
Black Sabbath is about Prog as Cannibal Corpse. Tongue
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:25
I don't care either way. I never saw them as prog related at all, but apparently others do.

But what irks me is it seems only the big name, classic rock, 70s bands are being now viewed as prog-related. For example, I think the Flaming Lips are 300% more prog than Black Sabbath ever were. However, I wouldn't want them on this site because they clearly don't belong in the grand scheme of things. Add prog-related bands if you wish, I just don't know what the point of it all is.
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:26
considering what I think of my reviews..and how they suck.   I hesistate to do this . but will anyway.. and offer an example of  the way you can fairly treat reviewing an album by a non prog group.   How much more better is served the person who is a prog fan, who made not have heard the album (LOL) then just another 5 star review because it is a classic album. Rate the album on it's prog quotient.. with due regard to it's classic status.

http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=110332


Edited by micky - October 12 2007 at 17:27
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Points: 66256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:44
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Prog Related probably needs its own set of star definitions replacing the "prog" with the "rock".


and why don't we change the name of the site as well LOL  It is a prog site... personally I think a few 1 star reviews based on the 'prog quotient' of the music, isn't going to have people jumping off bridges.
 
First off, as I said in my original long-winded and dry quote for which your eyes probably glossed over and you didn't bother or finish to read (or only read want you wanted to read) I did say that those who review the Sabbath reviews should not give them 5 stars because they are not prog masterpieces, unless the reviewer really thinks that they are prog masterpieces.  But I also think that there will be too many people who are peeved because of this addition to the site, even though as only prog-related, who will give 1 star ratings just because they are peeved and not because the albums are poor.  If you have listened to the Sabbath albums and think that they are poor then please feel free to give it a 1 star; preferrably with a well-written and thought out explanation not a one sentence "Sabbath sucks and shouldn't be on a prog website". 
 
My follow-up sentence that you quoted was in agreement with responses made by Finnforest and your beloved.  I don't think that that is a bad idea since prog-related has been separated from prog and is not being included on the page 1 list with prog bands.  As Raff said, she has given some prog-related bands a 5-star rating because they are masterpieces of MUSIC, but based on the guidelines of this site, a 5-star rating means that it is a prog-rock masterpiece.  Does that mean that the wording should be changed?  I think it would make sense, but I also don't think it is a big deal because I think that we are smart enough to make the distinction that because it is prog-related, a 5 star just means it is a masterpiece in the reviewers beliefs not a prog rock masterpiece. 
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Points: 6890 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:52
Black Sabbath are here, I dont care too much, this sint that bad.
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