Area's sub-genre - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Oneiromancer View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: July 25 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 64

Topic: Area's sub-genre
Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:41

Are you sure that Area fits on Italian Symphonic Rock? I'd say Fusion, Canterbury, RIO, or even Raga Rock... but it doesn't sound like symphonic at all! It's so angular and strange when compared to PFM, Banco or Genesis... (ok, I admit it doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard before).

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:48

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:52

as a matter of fact.. a more complete definition is being worked on as well. In short is for the Italian progressive rock movement... similar in nature.. but differently musically of course .. to Krautrock. The musical similarities are there.. just much more sublte

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:56

and nice review of Arbeit Macht Frei... stunning album

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

jimmy_row

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601

Posted: October 09 2007 at 23:20

I just saw the review pop up and had a little chuckle when I saw the subgenre...had a feeling about what's going on. I'm sure many will disagree, but me likes it

On the surface, PFM and Area have about as much in common as Genesis and Univers Zero, but if you look carefully you can spot the things that unify "Rock Progressivo Italiano" in both groups.

Signature Writers Guild on strike

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12812

Posted: October 10 2007 at 06:10

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

How can Caravan be 'avant' when after Soft Machine their are the archetypal Canterbury band, further the 2nd Caravan album If Could Do It Again was an attempt to jazz it up like Soft Machine IMHO.

Why do we get our knickers is acomplete twist wrt what aband's music is, by overdoing the sub-categorisation? - I'll repate yet again: we need the flexibility here to multi-tag bands since many bands simply don't stay musically in one sub-genre.

The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php
Host by PA's Dick Heath.

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: October 10 2007 at 14:18

I think the poster was making the same point Dick, he was saying it would be ludicrous to classify Caravan as Avant in order to make a point.

Bj-1

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 04 2005
Location: No(r)Way
Status: Online
Points: 31293

Posted: October 10 2007 at 15:50

micky wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on

Does that mean all Italian bands in the archives eventually will be classifyed under one genre?

I consider Area Jazz-Rock, since they are Jazz-Rock, so I start wondering if they got moved only because they're from Italy?

RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!

andrea

Prog Reviewer

Joined: May 20 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 2064

Posted: October 10 2007 at 16:33

Bj-1 wrote:

micky wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on

Does that mean all Italian bands in the archives eventually will be classifyed under one genre?

I consider Area Jazz-Rock, since they are Jazz-Rock, so I start wondering if they got moved only because they're from Italy?

What's exactly jazz-rock for you and why are you so sure that Area "are" jazz-rock?

This is an interesting article about jazz-rock, but I think that Area don't fit this subgenre... http://www.ibiblio.org/johncovach/jazz-rock.htm

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:17

Bj-1 wrote:

micky wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on

Does that mean all Italian bands in the archives eventually will be classifyed under one genre?

I consider Area Jazz-Rock, since they are Jazz-Rock, so I start wondering if they got moved only because they're from Italy?

I suggest you listen to the albums.. . they are not a J-R group. Let me note Bj. This move was agreed upon by two teams... RPI... and .... yep.. Jazz-Rock. Those who know the group.. and the music.

Edited by micky - October 10 2007 at 17:18

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

andrea

Prog Reviewer

Joined: May 20 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 2064

Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:19

PAOLO TOFANI, from the foreward of the book Il libro degli Area (Editorium Edizioni) by Domenico Coduto:

Per descrivere il significato e l’impatto che il gruppo musicale Area ha avuto a livello sociale, politico e artistico nel corso del breve ma intenso periodo della sua esistenza, bisognerebbe effettuare un’analisi ben profonda del tessuto giovanile e delle tensioni sociali, tenendo presenti le immancabili dicotomie collegate alla gestione del potere in un periodo storico complesso...

Invece di passare interminabili ore nella sala prove cercando di vestire di significati la musica e i contenuti dei vari pezzi, tenevamo delle lunghe e stimolanti discussioni per cercare di mettere bene a fuoco il senso di quello che volevamo trasmettere, tenendo in considerazione i linguaggi, le problematiche e le speranze del mondo giovanile di quel tempo. Solo dopo aver chiarito e compreso gli argomenti trattati, cercavamo individualmente di esprimere a livello musicale quel che avevamo realizzato a livello mentale, per arrivare poi, finalmente, all’incontro collettivo presentando le diverse idee che venivano analizzate e dalle quali venivano estratti i vari elementi che andavano a creare una composizione musicale che esprimesse al meglio il concetto di unità nella diversità. Credo sia stato proprio questo aspetto a fare degli Area un’esperienza unica nella storia della musica di quel periodo...

Sorry, I’m not going to translate... I think that the people who moved Area from Jazz-Rock to ISP should do it...

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:42

andrea wrote:

PAOLO TOFANI, from the foreward of the book Il libro degli Area (Editorium Edizioni) by Domenico Coduto:

Sorry, I’m not going to translate... I think that the people who moved Area from Jazz-Rock to ISP should do it...

they were moved yesterday after J-R approved it... and more are to come. Frickin Antonious Rex are now in J-R.

what some of you need to realize that some groups are put in subgenres ...not always because they ARE.. but because they fit best.. .when new subs come along, a band, if fits better in that new one, they will be moved there.

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Bj-1

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 04 2005
Location: No(r)Way
Status: Online
Points: 31293

Posted: October 10 2007 at 18:36

micky wrote:

Bj-1 wrote:

micky wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on

Does that mean all Italian bands in the archives eventually will be classifyed under one genre?

I consider Area Jazz-Rock, since they are Jazz-Rock, so I start wondering if they got moved only because they're from Italy?

I suggest you listen to the albums.. . they are not a J-R group. Let me note Bj. This move was agreed upon by two teams... RPI... and .... yep.. Jazz-Rock. Those who know the group.. and the music.

Hey, I have heard their three first studio albums, and they're jazzy enough to me(the reason I still consider them as J-R). Crac is one of my favorite albums these days actually, so claiming I don't know their music is a bit wrong to say, eh?

But hey, I respect your decisions, but I was just wondering why they got moved so no offence to any of you. I just wanted to know

RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 10 2007 at 18:49

a bit wrong perhaps.. my big yapper gets the best of me...sorry about that. My last post .. pretty much says it all. They had strong jazz influences.. enough to be put in J-R... but they fit better now in RPI now that ISP is dead.. though it never really lived. The new definition...when it is finished and posted on the front page will explain why they are.

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

jimmy_row

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601

Posted: October 10 2007 at 20:27

andrea wrote:

Bj-1 wrote:

micky wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:

I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?

you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on

Does that mean all Italian bands in the archives eventually will be classifyed under one genre?

I consider Area Jazz-Rock, since they are Jazz-Rock, so I start wondering if they got moved only because they're from Italy?

What's exactly jazz-rock for you and why are you so sure that Area "are" jazz-rock?

This is an interesting article about jazz-rock, but I think that Area don't fit this subgenre... http://www.ibiblio.org/johncovach/jazz-rock.htm

Thanks for posting that article, a very interesting read. After reading that it seems that Area can be in a category with PFM, Celeste, and QVL and fit at least as well as they would with Retrun to Forever, Weather Reprort, etc.

Going by the perameters in the essay, Area could be anywhere between prog rock and jazz - fusion. Although their work has an unmistakable jazz sound, composition plays a large role - but I haven't heard many live recordings, so I couldn't say how they went about these compositions in a live setting. Of course there's also a hefty serving of mediterranean/folk and avant-garde in their sound....really they defy categorization (I believe the members themselves preferred "International Popular Group". The first album and Crac! are closest to the "crossover" music Covach is talking about, but Caution... and Maledetti are mighty close to experimental jazz. I'd be interested to hear the opinion of RPI and fusion experts.

Signature Writers Guild on strike

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: October 11 2007 at 18:18

jimmy_row wrote:

that is a great article Andrea posted... he posted that somewhere else before.. I had read it before.

As far as my opinion... on Area.. yes they did have a hefty amount of jazz in their sound and music. However the way they fused arabic and greek musical influences in the sound .. added with a definte slant toward the avant electronic simply put them out of being considered a J-R group.. they weren't. and were never meerly a J-R.. Going back to what I posted earlier.. the question came to pass... which sub does this band fit best. The RPI team to a man thought RPI.. and J-R agreed as well. Instead of trying to think Area being in the same sub as Le Orme or PFM.. think of them being in the same sub as Battiato and Osanna.. who took a wide range of influences.. and made a sound completely unique to themselves. That range of influences.. which groups in RPI shared.. though in differing quantities of course. Some had a more symphonic natuare.. some folk, some jazz..Yet all used elments of all of them. That is what binds them together. The ambiguous musical nature of RPI.. is a perfect fit for Area.. and their ambiguous, and as you say hard to catagorize style of music. What holds it all together.. is the fact that these groups were part of a movement.. within a movement. The musical differences between them are so slight.. not once since I've been here have I heard complaints for those who have exlored the genre about bands that don't all sound symphonic or whate have you... they simply have a common sound that leads listeners naturally from a group like Banco to Pholas Dactlylus.. to Area... to the other extreme.. Battiato.

not sure if I make any sense or even what you were looking for LOL

. but that is my take.

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

jimmy_row

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601

Posted: October 11 2007 at 23:20

thanks for your reply micky,

not long ago I probably would have been confused with the way all of these bands are put into the same category, but I've come around to see that the so called "RPI" scene must be viewed through a socialogical perspective: it really was the product of a particular environment, with all of these influences present and a particular mindset...this is the impression I've had from listening/reading about people who were actually there - and it would be foolish to argue with experts, the ones who lived it and experienced it (ironically, there are probably still some who will).

Anyway, I understand what you're saying and I think this is what I was feeling in the first place. However, it is inevitable that when we begin grouping music on environmental/sociological grounds rather than aesthetic/structural grounds, it will cause confusion and mixed feelings.

btw, to all the collabs involved in this work: great job so far

, and you have quite a load of work in front of you

, I'll look forward to possibly seeing more of the deep well of Italian progressive rock turn up at PA.

Signature Writers Guild on strike

Cesar Inca View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 19 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 4888

Posted: October 13 2007 at 15:27

After reading the definitions, the term eclectic prog seems to me the one that fits AREA. There should be perfect consistance between the invention of new sub-genres and allocations. The musical essence of AREA goes further the Italian symphonic thing, farther so that it bears no symphonic traits at all.

Kind regards.

andrea

Prog Reviewer

Joined: May 20 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 2064

Posted: October 13 2007 at 17:02

Cesar Inca wrote:

After reading the definitions, the term eclectic prog seems to me the one that fits AREA. There should be perfect consistance between the invention of new sub-genres and allocations. The musical essence of AREA goes further the Italian symphonic thing, farther so that it bears no symphonic traits at all.

Kind regards.

I think it's wrong consider Area just in musical terms...

What about the meaning of tracks like "Il massacro di Brandeburgo n.3" or "Lobotomia"? They should be considered more as "conceptual or political acts" than as pieces of music... What about lyrics and Area's attitude on stage? If you don't know the Italian musical scene of the early seventies I fear you can't really understand Area's music... Of course, you can like it or dislike it, but you miss essential information...

Edited by andrea - October 13 2007 at 17:04

jimmy_row

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601

Posted: October 13 2007 at 20:25

andrea wrote:

I think it's wrong consider Area just in musical terms...

sorry to go off topic but...

I would be very interested to read about the meaning behind of some of Area's music and the political events surrounding them. It's so frustrating not to understand what Demetrio is saying, but I would be plenty happy if someone could point out a site or articles (or whatever) that discuss this intriguing band.

Signature Writers Guild on strike