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micky 
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 Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:19 |
 Certif1ed wrote:
The main issue I have, as I know others also have, is
that I find it hard to hear the progressiveness in Prog Metal.
Yes, many Prog metal artists get better in terms of playing techniques.
Yes, the music may change from album to album - but most albums are pretty homogenous.
The main issue I have is that every Prog metal album I've
ever heard, without exception, is an excercise in tarting up the old
song formula.
And FORM is the most important thing to me when I listen to Progressive Rock.
This doesn't make Prog Metal lesser or anything like that - although I've yet to hear any that really tickles my taste buds.
What it does is to set it apart from Progressive Rock (or
rather, early Progressive Rock) which was about structured
improvisation as much as it was about using exotic techniques and
instrumentation.
Because the essence is so different, I think that is what causes
the divides - between people who are looking for the essence of early
prog (and not finding it), and those who simply enjoy Prog Metal for
what it is.
Both camps are right, so this will never be resolved.
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nothing to be resolved Mark.... 
As far as liking it.. it is simply a matter of taste. As far as
the progressive quotient. That again is in the eye of the
beholder.. for those.. like you and me.. prog is not as much a
genre defined by complexity and technical skills which has
exactly become what you said.. a formulamatic musical genre based on
those things. Not 'progresive' in the least. Others
though... it is defined by those base musical elements... it might not
be progressive in the LEAST.. but it is still prog.
This came up in an interview James did with a modern Italian group..
his thoughts on the albums sum up to me ..what prog is.
There are two things about the new album that make it so stunning. First, the sense that "anything can happen" when you
listen. It is not strangled by convention. It is wide open, sonically
spacious, adventurous, and free. You are swept under the spell in the first
song and held in anticipation until the end.
that in a nutshell is what prog is about...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:25 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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andu
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:35 |
micky wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
I have always felt that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song. |
out of curiousity... why.... because it is 'heavy'
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Micky, I've had the same impression, really. There's something really special in the rhythmical interplay of drum, bass and guitar riffs on the heavier songs there which I did not find in any prog of the 70s, but I find it in thrash and prog-metal.
Edited by andu - October 09 2007 at 07:36
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:41 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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andu
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:49 |
Keep us informed. 
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:50 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Certif1ed
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:05 |
micky wrote:
andu wrote:
Keep us informed. |
when you hear projectile vomiting.... you'll know I've reached Moonchild 
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Moonchild is one of my favourite songs on that album as it sums up that whole "not knowing what's going to happen next" feeling - the way the tones just hang there, suspended, like moonbeams, as ghostly coils of sound drift past, painting opaque and dark-blue imagery of clouds obscuring the view temporarily as you watch, hypnotised...
Man, I feel a review coming on... 
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:06 |
micky wrote:
toolis wrote:
i think that PM is a very important genre and DT a very important -
at least - band... without these there would've have been that many
prog rock fans in here, including me.. |
that's very true.... one day I was pissing around the Welcome Newbie
section and noticed that ..like 8 posters in a row had listed DT as one
of th groups that led them here.
Personally I see DT as the latter day ELP. On the surface at
least... to the unitiated.. or the casual listener. The focus is
on upon shear w**kery and technical skills rather than the music
itself. Anyhow.. for me personally... I think ELP made it
sound incredible.. DT for me just sounds boring. The
difference... ELP was blazing trails and had a heavy interest in
bringing classical music to the 'masses' .... the motivation for
DT? Who knows.. selling albums... making magazine covers and top
instrumentalists lists.
I've always been surprised by those, like Ivan, that are surprised that
Raff.. and me specifically, like some prog metal. I did really
like Mastodon and LOVE the hell out of Opeth. We just don't like
DT... but would never damn a whole sub-genre because it's most popular
group....is not to our tastes.
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DT will always be one of my all time favorite bands. If you don't like them - fine ... but they've been blazing trails for many of the bands that followed, even including bands like Mastodon and Opeth (even Mikael himself likes DT btw). Their motivation? Well, they're not selling many albums. And music magazine covers ... well, I guess I'll never understand how people who call themselves fans of sophisticated music could possibly bash musicians for being virtuosic. And it doesn't have to exclude musicality and emotion at all. DT write excellent tunes, and they're much more emotional and musical than ELP ever were IMHO. I appreciate what you and some others are trying to do here ... promoting prog metal and everything. But you can't really do that and bash one of the pivotal prog metal bands in the process ... DT defined prog metal in the 90s, and the more experimental bands can only make the genre more diverse - but they certainly can't "un-define" what came before.
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:12 |
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MIke... it wasn't my intention to bash..... only express an opinion on
why some do see PM .. or DT the way they do. I'll drop it if you
take offense. This is a nice thread and I don't want to see it
descend into mudsligging if people can't accept dissenting opinions ON
the topic at hand.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:18 |
Certif1ed wrote:
micky wrote:
andu wrote:
Keep us informed. |
when you hear projectile vomiting.... you'll know I've reached Moonchild
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Moonchild is one of my favourite songs on that album as it sums up
that whole "not knowing what's going to happen next" feeling - the way
the tones just hang there, suspended, like moonbeams, as ghostly coils
of sound drift past, painting opaque and dark-blue imagery of
clouds obscuring the view temporarily as you watch, hypnotised...
Man, I feel a review coming on... |
ahhhh... in the middle of it speak of the devil. You are quite
right about 'not knowing what is going to happen next' . I love
that in prog.. one problem though for me about Moonchild....
The problem is.... nothing did happen... it didn't GO anywhere.
Not for me at least. As always... I'd love to read your
review. Maybe it will be a roadmap of sorts
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Shakespeare
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Joined: July 18 2006
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 08:23 |
I also have a reputation for making fun of Dream Theater. Just glance at any page in the STC thread... 
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Trickster F.
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 09:02 |
Wait a second, haven't I expressed the same point of view a few months ago (in between my 2nd and 3rd farewells)? I have this sense of de ja vu, as if we discussed this somewhere before.
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Asphalt
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 09:22 |
With regards to the 21st Century Man, not only because it's heavy, it's also aggressive. Those two are not always lumped together. You could argue Iron Maiden is heavy, but I just don't see it as truly aggressive. With 21st... KC managed to bring them together [and, of course, a little bit of funky jazz jamming in between]. In a lot of ways I feel that KC is responsible for the whole genre of math metal. And call me crazy, but sometimes I even hear KC in Meshuggah.
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rushfan4
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 10:21 |
Asphalt wrote:
micky wrote:
[QUOTE=Trickster F.][QUOTE=micky] [QUOTE=rushfan4]I have always felt
that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal
song. |
out of curiousity... why.... because it is 'heavy' |
Yes. Because it is 'heavy'. Because the vocals are semi-screamed in a metal type voice. Because the instruments are bringing forth that heavy metal thunder. All these things lead me to believe that this was the first progressive metal song.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:04 |
micky wrote:
MIke... it wasn't my intention to bash..... only express an opinion on
why some do see PM .. or DT the way they do. I'll drop it if you
take offense. This is a nice thread and I don't want to see it
descend into mudsligging if people can't accept dissenting opinions ON
the topic at hand.
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Please, by all means go on. I just expressed my opinion about the recent trend to praise prog metal and bash DT-like bands simultaneously. It's something which I can't support, but I would not want to forbid it either. Opinions are free!
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Raff
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:13 |
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:31 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
micky wrote:
MIke... it wasn't my intention to bash..... only express an opinion on
why some do see PM .. or DT the way they do. I'll drop it if you
take offense. This is a nice thread and I don't want to see it
descend into mudsligging if people can't accept dissenting opinions ON
the topic at hand.
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Please,
by all means go on. I just expressed my opinion about the recent trend
to praise prog metal and bash DT-like bands simultaneously. It's
something which I can't support, but I would not want to forbid it
either. Opinions are free!
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there is probably something to be said for that.. for those
simultaneous opinions may be hinting on a generally recognized
opinion. I'll toss that opinion out , that DT
may be great players... but they couldn't make good music together if
their lives depended on it. .
Of course anyone who made a blanket statement like that over Prog
Metal would be a fool. Prog Metal is much more than DT and their ilk. That
was Raffaella's point. Those who concentrate on displays of
instrumental skill, like DT do... usually do, or can be argued may
do, so at the expense of good music. That is what I think
many see, who have problem with DT. . Agree or not.. that is what
some people think.
Edited by micky - October 09 2007 at 11:33
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:43 |
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^ Considering that DT win virtually every poll ... I think that the majority of all people who like any prog metal band at all also like DT.
And it still seems to me that you're one of those people who hear virtuosity and disciplined playing and then automatically turn away ... I submit that these attributes don't preclude feeling and emotion, and I'm glad that most people agree about it, considering the various polls and also the ratings of the top DT albums.
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:49 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ Considering that DT win virtually every poll ...
I think that the majority of all people who like any prog metal band at
all also like DT.
And
it still seems to me that you're one of those people who hear
virtuosity and disciplined playing and then automatically turn away ...
I submit that these attributes don't preclude feeling and emotion, and
I'm glad that most people agree about it, considering the various polls
and also the ratings of the top DT albums.
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sure ... a large number of people go apesh*t over this group.
Great. More power to them. This thread is however, in part,
.. for those who aren't
Edited by micky - October 09 2007 at 11:49
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 11:59 |
^ ok ... let's not continue this argument here. I'll just go apesh*t in private.
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The Prog-Metal controversy
