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darkmatter 
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Joined: November 23 2006
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 Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:02 |
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I think a major problem is that some people only scratch the surface of progressive metal, bands like Dream Theater, Tool, and Opeth, which can be polarizing bands to certain people. But there are many very good bands in progressive metal. If you ask me, the polish band Indukti are THE representative progressive metal band (living up fully to the name of the sub-genre), and probably a relatively few amount of people know them here. Yet, most of the people I've encountered here like them very much, even those who are not big metal fans.
(By the way, I am not belittling other bands when I think that Indukti beats out other bands as the most representative of progressive metal.)
Edited by darkmatter - October 08 2007 at 17:03
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paloz
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Location: Italy
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Points: 329
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:07 |
Prog-metal has some pros, but also a true con: it is toooooooooooooooo long! All these albums have a running time of nearly 60 minutes.
I can't listen easily to them. I really can't.
I add that I preferred if more people knew about classic prog, and less about DT and things like this.. 
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darkmatter
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:10 |
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^ That's just a generalization, the one album of the band I had previously mentioned (Indukti) runs under 50 minutes (if I'm not mistaken), and it's an excellent album. And progressive metal isn't the only sub-genre under which bands make albums 60+ minutes, it happens in many modern albums and even in older progressive rock albums (like double albums).
Edited by darkmatter - October 08 2007 at 17:13
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spacemetal
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Joined: October 08 2007
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:29 |
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Dream Theater (and their clones) and Tool don't really appeal to me very much, but I love prog metal. I think some may listen to those and say "Prog metal doesn't appeal to me", but there is so much diversity within the genre. After all, prog isn't a genre, it's a quality. I prefer more of the doom and black metal that is progressive.
If you haven't already, I challenge you to listen to Omnio by In The Woods... and say that it didn't expose a new side of "prog metal" to you.
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sircosick
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Location: Chile
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 17:33 |
Actually I'm trying hardly to get into the genre.... I also try not to bash it somehow.... It's just another genre of prog music, which unfortunately recieve a lot more destructive critics by prog lovers, perhaps due to its historical location. I reckon I used to bash the genre and that was before I listened to bands like Ayreon, Green Carnation and Neurosis. My opinion has changed positively of course, but still thinking it's a dissapointing way to make progressive music 
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The best you can is good enough...
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 20:23 |
Excellent thread Raff!  Prog metal is incredibly veried, I love Dream Thater, Pain of Salvation, Tool, Maudlin of the Well, Kayo Dot, Mastodon, Opeth, Epica and others, andy many of these bands only have a few things in commen. Its a genre that will take a lot of time for anyone to get the measure of properly, and most wont because they give up after a few bands.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Melisma
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Joined: October 18 2006
Location: Canada
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Points: 25
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 20:31 |
 debrewguy wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Many people will probably be surprised seeing me start a thread by this title. Indeed, it is well known here than I am no big fan of Prog-Metal, and that I have a reputation for making fun of Dream Theater . However, I think that very often the best arguments in favour of something are put forward by people who have an impartial attitude, as it is my case.
DB throws what little weight he has here behind this person's opinion. You go girl !
Reading through many posts in the forums, I've been able to notice a very hostile attitude towards Prog-Metal on the part of many members. As it happens with Prog-Related, many seem to ignore the 'prog' part and only see the 'metal' one - and this sparks off a very prejudiced attitude. In fact, anything to do with 'metal' is often seen as the preserve of rough, uneducated, overall unpleasant people who are only interested in loud noises and unintelligible vocals. Alternatively, some seem to think Prog-Metal only means DT clones noodling away for hours on their instruments and sporting very cheesy album titles and covers. In neither case is the view of the phenomenon a positive, constructive one.
DB piggyback's - Funny how some people frown upon needless notes & overwhelming technique in Prog Metal, but see no problem in worshipping jazz fusion groups.
I am a novice to the world of PM. However, being curious by nature, I've often listened to the MP3s provided on this site, and have been surprised by the variety and depth of the music on offer. While symphonic power metal in the Nightwish or Blind Guardian mould doesn't interest me too much, I've found myself attracted by bands such as Mastodon or Opeth (though I'd be lying if I said I'm too keen on growling vocals), or even by some of the more obscure acts I've happened to listen to.
DB says - curiosity is what often leads to for great discoveries, especially when stepping out of one's preferred genres. You are a "proggie" that I try to emulate. Example - I don't care for Zeuhl. Finally got Dun's album this week. Love it. Went back to read up on their PA page. THEY'RE ZEUHL ??? What else am I missing ?
Therefore, even if I will probably never be a devotee, I see the validity of the whole genre, as well as its undeniably progressive nature. Though I understand the doom'n'gloom that too often characterises the lyrical content of these bands can be offputting to many, I also think PM doesn't deserve the constant attacks it receives on this forum and elsewhere, or the fear that it is in some ways 'taking over' the site. The members of the PM team deserve kudos for the work they've been doing so far, swimming against the tide and unearthing bands that, while they may not be to everyone's taste, give new meaning to the word 'prog'.
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DB - I say you're more than O.K. . You've hit the nail on the head. Some here at PA fear that one genre they dislike might get a bit more attention than theirs. Yet, they fail to take into consideration that enthusiasm for a prog genre, any genre, is good. Some prog-metal bands have been influenced by prog acts outside of PM. And many other of the prog sub-genres have their share of newer bands that take some things from PM acts.
But, as a general rule or observation ... some old folks (& I don't mean that age-wise) simply cannot tolerate LOUD guitars. The song Musical Box was heavy, but dominated by Banks' Organ (no, not his penis, but his instrument; I mean his keyboard) . So that was O.K. Crimson's sound revolves around Fripp's tricks. But that's O.K. , cause he mixes in jazz & avant-garde influences, even if they sometimes sound a bit noisier coming from his amplifier. Porcupine Tree is a step too far, because they've moved on in their progress & rely too much on the guitars now. To the point that some will claim they are prog metal (???)
So for you who dislike PM, here's an exercise for your ears & your Mind - when listening to a PM group, imagine the guitar parts, whether chords, leads or solos, being played by organ, mellotron, or moog. Then ask yourself if maybe the choice of instruments explains your dislike of the genre.
P.S. I tried that with Iron Maiden's debut. Man, I swear I was reminded of Triumvirat, Heep, some heavier Genesis & Gentle Giant, and most particularly Heldon (???) .
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This is sooo TRUE! I said the same thing to a friend of mine and won this point across!!!
Now the dude digs the PM!!!!
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Melisma
Life is a trip! Death is an odyssey...
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 22:35 |
One thing that I find is that any band with any amount of distorted metal guitar or a song or two that incorporates a thrash beat is lumped into PM. I was rather surprised after hearing Unexpect for the first time to see them in PM when the pervasive flavor to their music is RIO. There are others like Pain of Salvation who at times sound like a metal band, but in the case of 3 albums, use a definitive metal sound less than half the time. And I don't mean to point this observation at PA, this is something that has gone on amongst the general musical populace for years. Jethro Tull, a Heavy Metal grammy? Come on! I guess you have to put everybody somewhere.
debrewguy wrote:
when listening to a PM group, imagine the guitar parts, whether chords, leads or solos, being played by organ, mellotron, or moog. Then ask yourself if maybe the choice of instruments explains your dislike of the genre. |
Exactly. I have maintained for years that the choice of instruments can make or break a number 1 hit. Even in prog, Roundaboiut would not have had nearly the appeal amongst prog fans had it been played on bowsaws, accordians and 55 gallon drums. How many metal bands have peformed classical pieces? Like Scatterbrain performing Mozart's Sonata #3 and their precoursor Ludichrist doing The Barber of Seville. The symphony crowd didn't really go nuts for them, regardless of their accuracy to the originals. The instruments did not appeal to them.
Its all about what you were raised with musically. So many don't hear the prog elements in PM, I don't hear them in Electronic. No big deal. Somebody listed the number of bands on PA versus the number of those labeled PM. IMHO, as PM has only bloomed in the last 15-20 years, the numbers indicate that progressive growth in the metal community has been proportionally higher than other sub-genres. Not a knock on anybody, just analyzing an empirical view.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 22:52 |
Tapfret wrote:
Even in prog, Roundaboiut would not have had nearly the appeal amongst prog fans had it been played on bowsaws, accordians and 55 gallon drums. |
That reminds me of this album I heard of that was Christmas carols performed on office equipment. Never actually heard it, but it might actually be quite fun to listen to once or twice.
Edited by Slartibartfast - October 08 2007 at 22:53
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 08 2007 at 23:00 |
While I am no fan of growling, incessant thrumming, or Dream Theater , I have found a few prog-metal bands that I like very much. Right now I rate Indukti, Osada Vida, and Riverside right up there with my top bands.
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FruMp
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 02:56 |
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Thank you for making this topic, it really annoys me when ignorant people are always saying how progressive metal isn't 'real prog' or it can't attain the same level of progression as 'standard prog' (even though the opposite is true as progressive metal can venture into both the lightest and the heaviest possible territories of music).
The main problem with people's perception of prog metal is in my view Dream Theatre - they are a love them or hate them band and they happen to be the most well known prog metal band. I personally despise them because they are way too cheesy for my tastes and there are many people who feel the same but who dismiss the entire prog-metal genre because of it.
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Raff
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 03:39 |
FruMp wrote:
The main problem with people's perception of prog metal is in my view Dream Theatre - they are a love them or hate them band and they happen to be the most well known prog metal band. I personally despise them because they are way too cheesy for my tastes and there are many people who feel the same but who dismiss the entire prog-metal genre because of it.
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In my opinion, this is at least in part true. However, as I stated in my initial post, the real problem lies in that small, seemingly inoffensive 'metal' word. I am quite sure most of the people who slam PM on this board have never really listened to anything but perhaps DT, but still feel entitled to say it doesn't belong here - which of course is extremely offensive to those people who work hard in order to find new, interesting, innovative bands to add to our DB.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 04:03 |
The main issue I have, as I know others also have, is that I find it hard to hear the progressiveness in Prog Metal.
Yes, many Prog metal artists get better in terms of playing techniques.
Yes, the music may change from album to album - but most albums are pretty homogenous.
The main issue I have is that every Prog metal album I've ever heard, without exception, is an excercise in tarting up the old song formula.
And FORM is the most important thing to me when I listen to Progressive Rock.
This doesn't make Prog Metal lesser or anything like that - although I've yet to hear any that really tickles my taste buds.
What it does is to set it apart from Progressive Rock (or rather, early Progressive Rock) which was about structured improvisation as much as it was about using exotic techniques and instrumentation.
Because the essence is so different, I think that is what causes the divides - between people who are looking for the essence of early prog (and not finding it), and those who simply enjoy Prog Metal for what it is.
Both camps are right, so this will never be resolved.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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rushfan4
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:24 |
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I have always felt that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song.
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JayDee
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:34 |
Very well said madam. 
There is indeed more to Prog Metal than Dream Theater, but thanks to them, the genre remained alive, kicking and accessible. I know few people who get turned off to the whole genre because of thier negative bias with Dream Theater. Yes, they maybe cheesy at times and overly famous among (stereotyped) youngsters ( one reason why I think some veer away from DT's music is because they do not want to associate themselves with the fans ), but it does not change thier influnce to other bands and to the whole sub genre itself. I myself learned to shut up about the artists and music that doesn't interest me, so I'm hoping others too will learn to be sensitive and just be quiet about some things that don't appel to them.DT have done something good in my listening habits and the way I appreciate music in general, so that must be something.
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JayDee
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:40 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I have always felt that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song. |
Maybe because it is also considered the fist real progressive rock song. 
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toolis
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Joined: April 26 2006
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 06:53 |
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i think that PM is a very important genre and DT a very important - at least - band... without these there would've have been that many prog rock fans in here, including me..
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-music is like pornography...
sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...
-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:07 |
toolis wrote:
i think that PM is a very important genre and DT a very important -
at least - band... without these there would've have been that many
prog rock fans in here, including me.. |
that's very true.... one day I was pissing around the Welcome Newbie
section and noticed that ..like 8 posters in a row had listed DT as one
of th groups that led them here.
Personally I see DT as the latter day ELP. On the surface at
least... to the unitiated.. or the casual listener. The focus is
on upon shear w**kery and technical skills rather than the music
itself. Anyhow.. for me personally... I think ELP made it
sound incredible.. DT for me just sounds boring. The
difference... ELP was blazing trails and had a heavy interest in
bringing classical music to the 'masses' .... the motivation for
DT? Who knows.. selling albums... making magazine covers and top
instrumentalists lists.
I've always been surprised by those, like Ivan, that are surprised that
Raff.. and me specifically, like some prog metal. I did really
like Mastodon and LOVE the hell out of Opeth. We just don't like
DT... but would never damn a whole sub-genre because it's most popular
group....is not to our tastes.
Edited by micky - October 09 2007 at 07:08
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:12 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I have always felt that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song. |
out of curiousity... why.... because it is 'heavy'
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Trickster F.
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Posted: October 09 2007 at 07:17 |
micky wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
I have always felt that King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song. |
out of curiousity... why.... because it is 'heavy'
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I always considered Black Sabbath's Symptom of the Universe to be the first (proto-)Prog Metal song.
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The Prog-Metal controversy
