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Cheesecakemouse 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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 Posted: October 06 2007 at 03:18 |
 The Whistler wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
The Whistler wrote:
Yeah, I've also heard that...what was it, "Electric Funeral" was kinda Crimso-ish, right? |
Yeah, kind of sounds like Pictures of a city on Poseidon Awakes
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Yeah, that's it. Oh well, I know more Crimso than Sabbo. In truth, all I know of the Sabs, save some radio stuff, is Master of Reality and Heaven and Hell. My problem, doubtlessly, but then again, I'm the one who still lives with the foolish idea that metal never got better than Rainbow. Or, uh, "Minstrel in the Gallery." Heh. |
I'm not a metal fan either, no more than Led Zep, Rush and Crimso metal related works, but listen to Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (which features Rick Wakeman) and then Sabotage, it'll change your opinion about the band, I'm a new fan.
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 03:21 |
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Ah yes, the album where Rick was so sick of doing Tales every night that he said to the lads, "Look, I'll play with...oh, I dunno, BLACK SABBATH! Yeah! How'll that do ya?!?"
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Raff
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 03:26 |
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I don't think that liking BS has anything to do with being a metal fan. Though I still listen to classic metal acts, I'm not by any means a follower of the newer ones, especially those who seem to wallow in doom, gloom and assorted acts of violence.
As to their addition, I stated my case quite clearly in an earlier post. However, I am also quite aware no amount of discussion or putting forward sensible arguments will convince those who oppose their addition. Therefore, I think threads like this one - even if they have been started with the best of intentions by the best of people - will only serve the purpose of creating unrest in the forums. I have always been a supporter of the prog-related category, but now I've started thinking it would be better if it could be scraped altogether - though I know it can't.
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
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Points: 7113
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 03:30 |
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Well, ain't classic Sabbath considered the soul of metal? Wouldn't that be like likin' porg, but not likin' Crim Kingsom?
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 03:32 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
I don't think that liking BS has anything to do with being a metal fan. Though I still listen to classic metal acts, I'm not by any means a follower of the newer ones, especially those who seem to wallow in doom, gloom and assorted acts of violence.
As to their addition, I stated my case quite clearly in an earlier post. However, I am also quite aware no amount of discussion or putting forward sensible arguments will convince those who oppose their addition. Therefore, I think threads like this one - even if they have been started with the best of intentions by the best of people - will only serve the purpose of creating unrest in the forums. I have always been a supporter of the prog-related category, but now I've started thinking it would be better if it could be scraped altogether - though I know it can't.
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It'd be good if people would understand that categorisation of music is never perfect, I think prog- relaed is good in serving with the history of music (eg Syd Barrett, Peter Gabrial, Phish, Kate Bush, Led Zep- the site would be very poor without them) and prog I find it very beneficial, I just wish we could keep it cooler and not get into squabbles all the time. I appreciate what your saying though sounds like you had a hard time.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 06 2007 at 03:33
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 03:33 |
The Whistler wrote:
Ah yes, the album where Rick was so sick of doing Tales every night that he said to the lads, "Look, I'll play with...oh, I dunno, BLACK SABBATH! Yeah! How'll that do ya?!?" |
probably 
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 04:13 |
The Whistler wrote:
Yeah, I've also heard that...what was it, "Electric Funeral" was kinda Crimso-ish, right? |
Electric Funeral is a doom anthem... it starts with a slow doom riff and has a fast middle part based on a bass line of 5 notes... what's prog about that?
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-music is like pornography...
sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...
-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 04:20 |
so are Motorhead.. Lemmy was in Hawkwind.. does that make Motorhead prog related? could they fit in here?
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-music is like pornography...
sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...
-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 04:20 |
toolis wrote:
The Whistler wrote:
Yeah, I've also heard that...what was it, "Electric Funeral" was kinda Crimso-ish, right? |
Electric Funeral is a doom anthem... it starts with a slow doom riff and has a fast middle part based on a bass line of 5 notes... what's prog about that? |
Uh, because it's depressing? ALL prog music is depressing. First off, because if it were happier, it might actually become a hit, and the artists wouldn't want that. Secondly, because the artist can never actually get a hit. And thirdly, because no matter how long you practice, you can never play that well.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 12:10 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
In a band like Sabbath, how many days, weeks, years does not add any weight to how progressive you think they are, in the end its all a matter of opinion. |
You werev the one who asked me if I had heard the albums, and I answered you, not only heard but have most of them for 20 years in some cases.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
If you look at this website the prog related bands such as Wishbone Ash and Roxy Music and Led Zep have in my opinion less progressive material and degree of prog in them than Sabbath, |
So...Must we use the if X why not Y argument again, dfespite it has been disqualified hundreeds of times?
Each band is added by it's own merits, not because other bands are here.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sabbath contained Symphonic structured extended pieces, many experiments with synthersizers, orchestras, and eclecticism. Also the band had prog guests, and the guitarist joined JTull for a while, |
Symphonic structure? They were Metal, pure Metal and nothing moreb than metal.
ASnd what about the prog guests? Will we add Cat Stevens because Riick Wakeman played with him or Elton John because he auditioned for gentle Giant and King Crimson?
Geoff Downes and Trevor Horn played in Yes....Must we add The Buggles?
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sabbath also heavily influenced many prog bands such as Kahn and Rush, as well as being influenced by prog bands such as Yes and King Crimson. |
As far as I know, Rush was influenced by Led Zeppelin to he point that they were catalogied like Zep Clones in their first album and I'm not familiar with Kahn, excuse me for my ignorance, but I don't see them added.
I don't know how much influence they took from Crimson and Yes, because i can't listen it.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sabbath dparted radically from their metal sound buy the time of Technical Ecstasy and sound more like Yes and Supertramp. If you look at the radical change in their discography and the eclectism their is more than enough justification for them to be in the archives under prog related.
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Technical Ecstasy is considered as one of the worst BS albums, they changed their metal approach, but closer to mainstream than ever, for God's sake, listen "All Moving Parts" it's FUNK, not Prog. The fact that they used more keys doesn't make them Prog.
Eclecticism alone is not an excuse, then we should add Fleetwood Mac because they changed radically after Buckinghama and Nicks joined..
Why must we follow with this obsession of adding Prog Related bands, read the definition:
Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.
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We are a Prog site, not a Metal site, give priority to real prog bands, not a band that you listened 15 days ago and impressed you but has been rejected several times friom the Archives.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 06 2007 at 12:14
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 12:17 |
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I do agree with Ivan.... just have the feeling this is a pointless
discussion. Ether the admins already have their minds made up .
or the great absentee webmaster will reach with the hand of God
and place Sabbath into the archives.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 14:00 |
micky wrote:
I do agree with Ivan.... just have the feeling this is a pointless discussion. Ether the admins already have their minds made up . or the great absentee webmaster will reach with the hand of God and place Sabbath into the archives. |
I agree, I think we´re just "Beating around the bush"
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Raff
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 14:08 |
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That we are, my friends, and poisoning the atmosphere of the forums to no avail... When we have our own website, we can add or keep out whomever we please. Until then, this site isn't ours, and if we don't agree with its policy, the only thing we can do is leave - unless we get the owners to change their minds in some way. What I don't understand is why we have to tear each other apart... Words are like stones sometimes, and they may not be easy to forget.
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bhikkhu
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Joined: April 06 2006
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 14:21 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
That we are, my friends, and poisoning the atmosphere of the forums to no avail... When we have our own website, we can add or keep out whomever we please. Until then, this site isn't ours, and if we don't agree with its policy, the only thing we can do is leave - unless we get the owners to change their minds in some way. What I don't understand is why we have to tear each other apart... Words are like stones sometimes, and they may not be easy to forget.
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Exactly why I have taken myself out of these discussions, regardless of what the merits may be.
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micky
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:01 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:07 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
In a band like Sabbath, how many days, weeks, years does not add any weight to how progressive you think they are, in the end its all a matter of opinion. |
You werev the one who asked me if I had heard the albums, and I answered you, not only heard but have most of them for 20 years in some cases.
Ok, it just sounded like you were trying to say you somehow your opinion had more weight.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
If you look at this website the prog related bands such as Wishbone Ash and Roxy Music and Led Zep have in my opinion less progressive material and degree of prog in them than Sabbath, |
So...Must we use the if X why not Y argument again, dfespite it has been disqualified hundreeds of times?
Its not x why not y, its y is in when x hasn't been put in yet, like I said Sabbath sounds more proggy than Led Zep, Wishbone Ash etc. It would only sound likethe if x why not y argument if it was based on a band less proggy than these other bands, I'm saying Sabbath is more proggy
Each band is added by it's own merits, not because other bands are here.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sabbath contained Symphonic structured extended pieces, many experiments with synthersizers, orchestras, and eclecticism. Also the band had prog guests, and the guitarist joined JTull for a while, |
Symphonic structure? They were Metal, pure Metal and nothing moreb than metal. Can't you hear the symphonic structure listen again, pure metal? last time I heard pure metal bands don't use orchestras and funk. A little too eclectic to be pure metal , a very blatant example of symphonic structure in their music is their first album, a 14 minute piece, a 10 minute piece all divided up into subsections, but the symphonic structure is everywhere in all their music, I'm really surprised you don't see it.
ASnd what about the prog guests? Will we add Cat Stevens because Riick Wakeman played with him or Elton John because he auditioned for gentle Giant and King Crimson?
Geoff Downes and Trevor Horn played in Yes....Must we add The Buggles?
This only matters by the initial fact that they have strong prog elements, and reinforces it.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sabbath also heavily influenced many prog bands such as Kahn and Rush, as well as being influenced by prog bands such as Yes and King Crimson. |
As far as I know, Rush was influenced by Led Zeppelin to he point that they were catalogied like Zep Clones in their first album and I'm not familiar with Kahn, excuse me for my ignorance, but I don't see them added.
Zep clones at the beginning -maybe but they still had other influences as well as the Who, Cream, and they had practically dropped their clone sound by their second album also some of 2112 has parts heavily influenced by Sabotage, also the sond Anthm olike a Sabbath one (albeit more tidy because of better musicianship), the song Bangkok sounds sabbathy, also many other s were influence such as Cygnus.
You can't tell me Rush only to Zep in their early days.
I don't know how much influence they took from Crimson and Yes, because i can't listen it.
Check Allmusicguide.com, they mention Yes as a major influence on Sabbath, listen to the album Paranoid, very Crimsonesque in parts, just like Uriah Heeps Very 'Eavy, very 'Umble.
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Sabbath dparted radically from their metal sound buy the time of Technical Ecstasy and sound more like Yes and Supertramp. If you look at the radical change in their discography and the eclectism their is more than enough justification for them to be in the archives under prog related.
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Technical Ecstasy is considered as one of the worst BS albums, they changed their metal approach, but closer to mainstream than ever, for God's sake, listen "All Moving Parts" it's FUNK, not Prog. The fact that they used more keys doesn't make them Prog.
Last thing I heard prog does use elements of funk, just like Yes, I can hear Ozzy took some keys in his vocal delivery from Anderson, the first track on Technical Ecsatsy could have been done by Yes.
Eclecticism alone is not an excuse, then we should add Fleetwood Mac because they changed radically after Buckinghama and Nicks joined..
Again ececticsm is reinforced by the other factors, as I have mentioned earlier they had many Symphonic structure, their first album has extended tracks, a 14 minute piece and a 10 minute piece divided into many parts, Vol. 4, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Sabotage, Tech Ecs, Never Say Die.
Anyway you just said they were pure metal, and now your saying they're eclectic.
Why must we follow with this obsession of adding Prog Related bands, read the definition:
Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.
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We are a Prog site, not a Metal site, give priority to real prog bands, not a band that you listened 15 days ago and impressed you but has been rejected several times friom the Archives.
They impressed me because they sound so proggy. And yes they did cointribute to prog dramatically, both symphonic, canterbury and prog metal.
Also I'm not a metal fan, nor do I wish to make this band a metal site, I'm saying the inner structure and mechnisms of their songwriting is strongly connected to prog, if they were based on folk, jazz, polka and they still had the symphonic structures and experiments I would them in. I'd say if Sabbath were more of a folk base they'd get in without trouble, just remember gain on a guitar and heavy sound does not make a band less prog related.
Iván |
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 06 2007 at 16:11
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micky
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:08 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Cheesecakemouse
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Joined: April 05 2006
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:17 |
Thats really not a contribution  , If you you can do is laugh what I say, if you find what I state ridiculous state it, because all I find what you'r doing here is putting my statement down without contributing
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - October 06 2007 at 16:18
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micky
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:21 |
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the point has been made...and I think it is a valid one that you are
talkiing to the wind here. Who are you talking to... not someone
who is going to decide this. Minds are already made up.
Don't you think this has already been decided.. Black Sabbath has been
suggested.. time and time again.
All further discussion will do is rile people up.. .and we don't want it here.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
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Posted: October 06 2007 at 16:21 |
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Oh, no, he's not putting your statement down at all... It's just that you don't realise that you're conducting what in Italy we call ' a dialogue between deaf people'. You're trying to convince Ivan of the validity of your arguments, but he won't change his mind even if you write the Bible all over again, and neither will you.
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