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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:10
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

Originally posted by Sckxyss Sckxyss wrote:

I agree with what Micky and Melomaniac have said. I wouldn't be bothered if they were added, but the site as a whole would suffer, without much gain.


Like I suggested earlier, a month long ban on creating threads, posts etc on a controversial inclusion would stop all the trouble, I don't see why politics should be involved here,  after all its about music, and it will help people to learn and grow in their appreciation.
If a band is prog or prog-related they should be here.



You see, Michael, this would be not a bad idea... However, if you think about that, it goes against freedom of expressing one's own opinion, which is essential in every civilised community. The trick would be to be able to express one's opinion without offending other people involved - unfortunately, there are people around who seem to be unable to do so.

To make an example, I can understand some don't agree with Blue Oyster Cult being in prog-related, but there is no need to imply I added them because they were childhood favourites of mine (when I got to know them in my twenties....), as someone did a couple of days ago. I've been listening to prog since the age of 11, and I think I know the difference between a fully prog band, a prog-related one, and a non-prog one.
I left the site for months after that addition because of the unpleasant allegations made by some fellow Collabs - and I was Admin at the time. Though I am perfectly capable of answering people back using their same tone, I choose not to do so - but others have no such reservations.
 
I remember getting answered back once ;-)
 
Anyway, I don't really care which genre BS would be added under, but I think they should be added to the PA given that they were innovative at the time, kind of breaking away from the norms in rock music with their extremely dark and heavy music, and their music was quite progressive in the sense that they blended together a lot of genres (and Peter Gabriel himself has stated that part of the whole progressive thing was to mix genres and see how it worked) and created their own genre on that basis.
 
Whether they would be added as Heavy Prog, Prog-Related, Prog-Metal or whatever is irrelevant to me, but, as I said, given the, at the time unusual and prog-like, nature of their early music, and their influence on rock/pop music in general, they should be added.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:14
 
Simple solution: Lob off the 'prog' from prog-related
 
Everyones a winner
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:16
So, it's just "Related" then?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 11:19
 
Yep
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:01
The funny thing about this thread is that its just about unanamous that BS are prog-related to some degree, and I see barely any hostility about them being here, but rather fear that there will be hostility, I'll create a poll, to gauge reactions and how negative it is   in the wider community in the archives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:30
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

The funny thing about this thread is that its just about unanamous that BS are prog-related to some degree, and I see barely any hostility about them being here, but rather fear that there will be hostility, I'll create a poll, to gauge reactions and how negative it is   in the wider community in the archives.


Raff and I talked about this today...

no one doubts their PR 'qualifications'. As I said before, you can make a case for any number of groups to be added in PR.  I don't think you need to do a poll..  they've been done time and time again.  As I said last night... the admins and the owner  will make this decision, and if they chose to add them,  they will hopefully  deal swiftly with any such hostility...  If not.. the site deserves what it gets allowing people to carry on like that.   As I told Raff.. that would indeed be a benefit to this site.  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:35
Originally posted by Yukorin Yukorin wrote:

 
Simple solution: Lob off the 'prog' from prog-related
 
Everyones a winner


been suggested.. and rejected

'Influenced by prog'  was suggested ....  even with some of the cadets we have here... I find it hard to mistake that for a prog sub-genre LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:42
Well I think we can expect a few "controversial" additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space... Wink

BTW, The Webmaster rejected Metallica. It's his site to do with as he pleases and he has a list of bands he wants to see here. Some have already been added and there are a more to come.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:52
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Well I think we can expect a few "controversial" additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space... Wink



I'm quite sure of that hahahhahah
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2007 at 18:56
Undoubtely, Black Sabbath influenced the whole metal and heavy rock scene, and that includes Heavy Prog and Prog Metal. So, they could be here as Proto Prog.
They're not considered progressive, but the huge influence is obvious!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 08:20
Originally posted by Barla Barla wrote:

Undoubtely, Black Sabbath influenced the whole metal and heavy rock scene, and that includes Heavy Prog and Prog Metal. So, they could be here as Proto Prog.
They're not considered progressive, but the huge influence is obvious!
 
from a historical perspective, Sabbath can only be Prog Related. >> first album in 70
 
I think that the addition of Zeppelin (I was against it) changed a few things perspective-wise on this site.
 
But from a historical AND musical perpective, it would be wiser to have Purple and The Who changed to Prog Related. I always thought The Who  (I would've voted against their inclusion if Zep had not gotten the inclusion before) was absurd in Proto, since Tommy is 69 (as is Crimson's ITCOTCK) and the prog era was 70's and not 60's.  As for Purple, it is only logical that their inclusion gets changed to prog related if both Zep and Sabbath are in (and all indications points that they will be in).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 08:32
The DP biography would need to be changed if they were moved, as it currently focuses on their first 3 albums as evidence of their Proto prog credentials.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 12:17
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

The DP biography would need to be changed if they were moved, as it currently focuses on their first 3 albums as evidence of their Proto prog credentials.


If you need to change DP's bio, I would be glad to do it, since I love the band and I am quite familiar with most of their output - unless of course someone else is even keener on doing it!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:42
It could certainly do with improving anyway Raf, please feel free to do so!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 13:48
Thanks for the trust, Bob! Smile I'll have a look at it ASAP, and see what can be improved upon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:07
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Thanks for the trust, Bob! Smile I'll have a look at it ASAP, and see what can be improved upon.
 
 
 
ClapClapClapClapClap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 14:11
I hope to come up with something half-decent in the next few days.... I've looked at the DP bio, and I have to say it would've needed to be expanded anyway. Even if their prog career stopped with "The Mule", they're too important and influential a band to have only a couple of paragraphs as their bio.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 17:17
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Well I think we can expect a few "controversial" additions over the next 6 months or so...watch this space... Wink

BTW, The Webmaster rejected Metallica. It's his site to do with as he pleases and he has a list of bands he wants to see here. Some have already been added and there are a more to come.


I wasn't so into the way things work here hahahah , and what people say..without saying it...around here....I take that to mean that the webmaster wants Sabbath added... if so... so be it.  If not... then I direct this to whoever wants to consider Sabbath for this site

It is his site, and the admins site  and they can do he wants with it. Include making a mockery of it

..  I'll ask you to do one thing.

Read a book, or consider the book  that was put on Progressive Rock... damn....I believe it was 'Rocking the Classics: English Progressive Rock and the Counterculture' by Edward Macan.

in his book.... he goes to great pains to explain .. just how different how groups like Sabbath are from Progressive Rock..   He uses uses one to to explain what the other was trying NOT to do.   Simply.. I don't care if you add them or not... but if you are seriously concerned about having not just a comprehensive site... but an accurate one.  Let's history be  history rather than if they had some progressive elements or music. 

granted it is only one opinion... but that opinion is in world wide cirulation and has a hell of a lot more merit than any thing that has been written in these pages.

My two cents.




Edited by micky - October 05 2007 at 17:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2007 at 17:49
Rick Wakeman played keyboards on Sabra Cadabra.  Enough said, they are prog related.  Wink   Seriously though, I have never really considered Black Sabbath as anything other than a really good heavy metal band but I can see the prog-related point of view from the standpoint that they were somewhat influenced by Yes, and by the amount of influence that they had on many of the prog-metal bands.  Grant it, their influence was probably more on the metal side versus the prog side.  If Black Sabbath were added as a full-fledged prog band then I think that PA would lose a lot of credibility, but as to the suggestion that they be added as prog-related I don't think that would be the case.  At least as long as people get it straight that prog-related does not mean prog.   

Again these same battles have been waged over Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Blue Oyster Cult, etc....  And the same arguments for and against are repeated each time. 
 
The crazy thing is that bands like Meshuggah, Tool, Opeth, and The Mars Volta are on PA as prog bands because they merged different musical styles and they expanded the musical boundaries.    Those characteristics are going to be found in pretty much any description you find about Black Sabbath.  And again the arguments meander on.   They were progressive with a little "p" not a big "P".  "Progressive and rock, but not progressive rock". 
 
To me, Black  Sabbath is the closest of these bands to have a sound in common with the prog rock bands of the 70's.
 
 


Edited by rushfan4 - October 05 2007 at 17:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2007 at 04:01

Tony Iommi, interview (a few years ago):

- What do you think about today's doom metal scene?
-T.I.: what do you mean? I invented doom metal!!!!!
-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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