| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
 Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:00 |
 White Shadow wrote:
well the same goes for when I used the word "crap". exact same thing. and i don't see how the succession of replies points to me accusing you of being an idiot.
If yu need a second post to explain what you said in the first one, there are two options:
- You weren't clear enough, and for that reason my interpretation could had been correct
- You changed your first position after having noticed what you said first,
You used the word crap, you accused me of qualifying Three men Genesis as Crap...my interpretation was natural.
I didn't say that. You said that part about buying them. You're putting words in my mouth. I meant You want to hate it because it's popular. I didn't mean that you consciously want to hate it. It meant you're obviously not going to admit or even KNOW it. That's why I said I'm no psychologist. You're right, I didn't do a good job of wording.
Again changing your statement pal? I never mentioned i dislike Genesis because they became popular, i said I dislike them because IMHO they were bland POP, this doesn't mean bland POP is good or bad, I simply don't like it.
Please don't try to analyze me, I was there in the 70's I bought ATTW3 the same morning it was released without even had listened a song, I saw their involution, that's the only reason I dislike it...I know what I like and I know what I dislike.
I know what I said (why do I have to repeat myself), But I never said you used the word crap.
For God's sake, can you even read what you said?
Originally posted by White Shadow
You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap.. |
|
Read what YOU WROTE, IT'S A TEXTUAL QUOTE, you accused me of condemening them as crap.
And I don't see why you would not understand this the last time I said it.
Because I quoted you repeatedly and you clearly said I considered them crap...READ WHAT YOU WRITE!
I didn't try to mask it. I tried to explain what I meant. you understood it wrong and I still don't think it is arrogant. I love something and and you hate it.
You want the whole quote?
| Obviously you're not going to admit it, all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great. It wasn't an insult or a "personal attack" as they say on PA. I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great.. |
Literal quote word by word, nothing out of context, you clearly say you can't understand how can people like what for you is great...THAT'S ARROGANT.
I said you should relisten. You took that quote out of context and it still isn't that arrogant on its own. I wouldn't have said that to someone who wasn't a Genesis prog fan.
I don't need to relisten, I was listening Genesis 14 years before you were born, this doesn't make me better or worst, but I heard everything Genesis released thousand of times, despite they are my favorite band from Trespass to W&W, I'm more interested in listening new stuff today rather than loosing my time and money in albums of Pop bnands i know i don't like..
You weren't here when this albums where released, i was lisytening Genesis since W/W was released, I know their evolution.
.i think it's the other way around. I think it is their last album you can dub "prog" as a whole. And popularity doesn't matter at all. I might get agitated but I would never judge music on its popularity.
Neither do I EXCLUSIVELY, but an album that makes hit singles for Bilboard, is most surely Pop, most likely the vocalist and frontman gives terrible opinions about Prog in those days, but at the end my impression is the one I follow for in first place.
it has everything to do with three man genesis. If you like W&W, I don't understand why you, not only dislike, but HATE ATTWT and Duke. You never said you didn't care for it or it was weak. You said you hated it. That was the whole point of my original message. Maybe I could word my posts better but you took what was meant to be a friendly post into semantics argument. This hasn't even been about music.
Again you can't understand why i don't like ATTW3 and Duke? Here are some reasons:
- Because W&W has Eleventh Earl of mar, One for the Vine, All ion a mouse night, Blood on the Rooftops, etc all great Prog tracks and only one track I don't like at all called Your Own Special Way, while I don't care for a single ATTW3 track except maybe "Deep in the Motherlode"
- Because W&W had Steve Hackett adding the most fabulous atmospheres while ATTW3 has nothing that renminds me to the classic Genesis and Mike Rutherford making awful guitar parts.
- Because W&W is a return to the roots even with powerful lyrics aster the transitionl ATOTT which is my least favorite Prog Genesis album and the next albums are blander thanm i could expect from Genesis.
Try to understand something, ATTW3 was the first Genesis album ever released in Prú with a very short number of copies, I woke up at 6:00 am (despite I was on vacations) to get my copy...Do you think i did all that just because I wanted to hate the album?
No, the dislike came later, after i listened it three consecutive times found it weak and poppy.
I never said we couldn't disagree. I think I disagreed with you in one of my firsts posts on this thread.
Yes, because you can't understand how somebody doesn't like whjat you find great.
What has that got to do with what I said above? Where I typed in green isn't telling you to listen to it again. It is explaining my original post. You didn't have to tell me you hate it for the third time. I understood that after you first reply. and I do accept it. My original point was that you should relisten. All you had to say was I have given them many a fair listen and that wouldn've been the end but you made it into a big deal and got wicked defensive over nothing.
That's what i said, but you aren't able to understand why i don't like it and you forget what you have written before.
They didn't even listen to it. They started to leave after Phil said "this is the last song and it is an old one". And the magnitude of people was sad. It was like a mass migration to the exit. That's what bothered me.
Well, it doesn't surprise or bothers me a bit, the audience that goes to a tour without Gabriel and Hacklett is audience that doesn't like old struff.
Iván |
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 24 2007 at 22:09
|
|
|
 |
jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
|
Posted: September 25 2007 at 01:21 |
^^God I wish I had that much free time 
|
|
White Shadow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 259
|
Posted: September 25 2007 at 20:53 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
White Shadow wrote:
well the same goes for when I used the word "crap". exact same thing. and i don't see how the succession of replies points to me accusing you of being an idiot.
If yu need a second post to explain what you said in the first one, there are two options:
- You weren't clear enough, and for that reason my interpretation could had been correct
- You changed your first position after having noticed what you said first,
You used the word crap, you accused me of qualifying Three men Genesis as Crap...my interpretation was natural.
I didn't say that. You said that part about buying them. You're putting words in my mouth. I meant You want to hate it because it's popular. I didn't mean that you consciously want to hate it. It meant you're obviously not going to admit or even KNOW it. That's why I said I'm no psychologist. You're right, I didn't do a good job of wording.
Again changing your statement pal? I never mentioned i dislike Genesis because they became popular, i said I dislike them because IMHO they were bland POP, this doesn't mean bland POP is good or bad, I simply don't like it.
Please don't try to analyze me, I was there in the 70's I bought ATTW3 the same morning it was released without even had listened a song, I saw their involution, that's the only reason I dislike it...I know what I like and I know what I dislike.
ATTWT isn't even close to being a bland pop album.. It is far more progressive than pop. One little love song was a hit and you abandon the whole thing? And I didn't change it. The additions on to my original statement are just going into depth so you can understand it.
I know what I said (why do I have to repeat myself), But I never said you used the word crap.
For God's sake, can you even read what you said? Can't YOU read what I've said.
Originally posted by White Shadow
You can't stand that they went in another direction and therefore, want to condemn it as crap.. |
|
Read what YOU WROTE, IT'S A TEXTUAL QUOTE, you accused me of condemening them as crap. I never denied that I said you think it's crap. You havn't been saying "I don't think it's crap, I just don't like it", you've been saying "I never used the word "crap"" and all of been saying back is basically what you said in the last post. That is why I said "exact same thing". I never implied you used the word, but your posts seem to indicate that those are your feelings.
And I don't see why you would not understand this the last time I said it.
Because I quoted you repeatedly and you clearly said I considered them crap...READ WHAT YOU WRITE! For the fourth time I think, I did. Why don't YOU read what you write.
I didn't try to mask it. I tried to explain what I meant. you understood it wrong and I still don't think it is arrogant. I love something and and you hate it.
You want the whole quote?
| Obviously you're not going to admit it, all I meant is I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great. It wasn't an insult or a "personal attack" as they say on PA. I find it hard to believe that you hate something that in my mind is great.. |
Literal quote word by word, nothing out of context, you clearly say you can't understand how can people* like what for you is great...THAT'S ARROGANT. No, I said YOU, SPECIFICALLY YOU, not *people in general. That's what my last three posts have been about. You like ATOTT and W&W and I don't think ATTWT is that different. That's why I don;t understand. That's the point of my posts that say "similar music tastes", and "but you like W&W". BTW, a full quote doesn't show the whole picture, for the whole argument is involved in the meaning of the quote. I have explained that quote numerous times but you don't mention those replies because it helps your argument if that is the only quote people see. I haven't made an attemt to change it. I didn't edit it. It is what I said it is, it is not arrogant. At no point did I say I have "the only valid taste". I can see how on it's own, it could be percieved as arrogant but I've explained it. You just seem to ignore those explanations. Again, we both like Genesis. I like ATTWT and Duke and other songs scattered throughout their pop albums and feel there are strong connections and similarities on these with earlier stuff. You hate it. I didn't understand (or couldn't believe) why we both like "A", I like "B"(the word "something" in the quote doesn't mean everything. In fact, it didn't entail anything other than the later Genesis stuff Iike ATTWT and Duke. I didn;t mean I wouldn't understand if you dislike music I find great. It rather equals "B" which equals later Genesis stuff like ATTWT and Duke) and think it is similar to "A" but you hate "B". That is what I meant. I can be arrogant and close-minded sometimes but I admit it when I am. I believe everyone's entitled to their opinion and wouldn't try to force someone to like something. I didn't say "you're stupid for not liking later Genesis". I said you should relisten because it would be worth it. I understood you're reply and I haven't asked you a second time to relisten.
I said (as "in the past")you should relisten. You took that quote out of context and it still isn't that arrogant on its own. I wouldn't have said that to someone who wasn't a Genesis prog fan.
I don't need to relisten, I was listening Genesis 14 years before you were born, this doesn't make me better or worst, but I heard everything Genesis released thousand of times, despite they are my favorite band from Trespass to W&W, I'm more interested in listening new stuff today rather than loosing my time and money in albums of Pop bnands i know i don't like..GET IT THROUGH YOUR SKULL. you don't need to repeat yourself. I understood five posts ago. I was merely explaining previous posts. I wasn't telling you to relisten again.
You weren't here when this albums where released, i was lisytening Genesis since W/W was released, I know their evolution.Oh, because I definitely haven't heard every album and am unable to see their evolution just because I wasn't alive. I guess if you weren't alive when albums were released it is impossible to put them together and see the development over their course. I see your point now, if you listen to it when it was released, it sounds different than later on.
.i think it's the other way around. I think it is their last album you can dub "prog" as a whole. And popularity doesn't matter at all. I might get agitated but I would never judge music on its popularity.
Neither do I EXCLUSIVELY, but an album that makes hit singles for Bilboard, is most surely Pop, most likely the vocalist and frontman gives terrible opinions about Prog in those days, but at the end my impression is the one I follow for in first place.
Just because something is popular, it isn't necessarily pop. Pop might be short for popular but it is more considered a genre with qualifications that musically, have nothing to do with album sales, although there is obviously a correlation between pop and high album sales. and I don't believe ATTWT belongs in this genre at all and Duke is still more prog than pop.
it has everything to do with three man genesis. If you like W&W, I don't understand why you, not only dislike, but HATE ATTWT and Duke. You never said you didn't care for it or it was weak. You said you hated it. That was the whole point of my original message. Maybe I could word my posts better but you took what was meant to be a friendly post into semantics argument. This hasn't even been about music.
Again you can't understand why i don't like ATTW3 and Duke? Here are some reasons:
- Because W&W has Eleventh Earl of mar, One for the Vine, All ion a mouse night, Blood on the Rooftops, etc all great Prog tracks and only one track I don't like at all called Your Own Special Way, while I don't care for a single ATTW3 track except maybe "Deep in the Motherlode"
- Because W&W had Steve Hackett adding the most fabulous atmospheres while ATTW3 has nothing that renminds me to the classic Genesis and Mike Rutherford making awful guitar parts.
- Because W&W is a return to the roots even with powerful lyrics aster the transitionl ATOTT which is my least favorite Prog Genesis album and the next albums are blander thanm i could expect from Genesis.
"Down and Out", "Burning Rope", "Deep in the Motherlode", "The Lady Lies", "Cul-De-Sac", and "Duke's Travels" are all great progressive songs, if you just wanna list good prog songs off these albums.
Try to understand something, ATTW3 was the first Genesis album ever released in Prú with a very short number of copies, I woke up at 6:00 am (despite I was on vacations) to get my copy...Do you think i did all that just because I wanted to hate the album? You already said this. But, No I think you did that because you were expecting "ATOTT", which is unfair to expect every time. And who's changing comments now? Who's got the bad memory now? What was it I said you want to hate? I believe I said "Phil Collins music" .ATTWT was not mentioned at all in that statement or how you bought it "without listening to it". It was a statement about how I think you have a prejudice against Phil Collins' music because it is popular and you're upset that it is different from early Genesis. Whether I'm right or wrong can't be proven because it would be a subconscious thing.
No, the dislike came later, after i listened it three consecutive times found it weak and poppy. Difference of opinion on it being weak and I don't think it is poppy at all.
I never said we couldn't disagree. I think I disagreed with you in one of my firsts posts on this thread.
Yes, because you can't understand how somebody doesn't like whjat you find great. Again, you're distorting that quote's meaning to discredit me. And I believe we disagreed on Daryl's playing for them and Phil's voice. "
[I don't like Phil Collins voice or Daryl Stuermer doing Hackett parts. i heard In the Cage by Phil and simply hate it, IMO it lacks of emotion, he was never abble to transmit the claustrophobia and the fear Rael felt when trapped in the cage. I disagree. I think Daryl does a great job. Hackett is my favorite guitarist but I am very happy that I got to see Daryl. I also love Phil's voice."]Remember?
What has that got to do with what I said above? Where I typed in green isn't telling you to listen to it again. It is explaining my original post. You didn't have to tell me you hate it for the third time. I understood that after you first reply. and I do accept it. My original point was that you should relisten. All you had to say was I have given them many a fair listen and that wouldn've been the end but you made it into a big deal and got wicked defensive over nothing.
That's what i said, but you aren't able to understand why i don't like it and you forget what you have written before. No, I remember what I've written before and I understood why you don't like it. That's why I said "I understood that after you first reply. and I do accept it"
They didn't even listen to it. They started to leave after Phil said "this is the last song and it is an old one". And the magnitude of people was sad. It was like a mass migration to the exit. That's what bothered me.
Well, it doesn't surprise or bothers me a bit, the audience that goes to a tour without Gabriel and Hacklett is audience that doesn't like old struff.
You're wrong. Remeber you said you don't talk about things you don't know about? Well, the above reply is an assumption and a generalization, pal, and you weren't there. there were a lot of prog fans there. I talked to a guy who saw them in the tour when they recorded "Seconds Out". I also talked to two guys about Yes and King Crimson and another guy complimented me on my ATOTT shirt I bought.
Iván |
|
Edited by White Shadow - September 25 2007 at 20:54
|
|
[signature]
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:01 |
Ok, it's a waste of time, you will keep changing and over explaining everything you said before.
Will only make a couple notes and that's all:
Oh, because I definitely haven't heard every album and am unable to see their evolution just because I wasn't alive.
If you haven't heard every album they released you're definetely not capable of understanding their eviolution completely, that's a fact.
I guess if you weren't alive when albums were released it is impossible to put them together and see the development over their course. I see your point now, if you listen to it when it was released, it sounds different than later on.
If you listen all their albums you are able to understand the evolution, but you have admitted in the last quote you have not even heard all their albums.
BTW: Yes an album might sound different if you listened when released, because you are part of the cultural and historical moment, that's why some albums don't pass the test of time, they were OK in their natural context, but sound outdated when listened out of that context.
You're wrong. Remeber you said you don't talk about things you don't know about? Well, the above reply is an assumption and a generalization, pal, and you weren't there. there were a lot of prog fans there. I talked to a guy who saw them in the tour when they recorded "Seconds Out". I also talked to two guys about Yes and King Crimson and another guy complimented me on my ATOTT shirt I bought.
There's something called reading, I'm member not only of PA but 5 or 6 Prog more sites and I read the opinions of most of the people there, it's logical to assume the vast majority is formed by three men era Genesis.
Now use your logic:
1.- The people left when Phil anounced it was an old song...ergo, we're talking about Pop Genesis fans, the Prog fans went to listen OLD tracks mostly.
2.- No old timer Genesis fan would leave in Carpet Crawlers after listening the whole concert.
3.- There's an historical perspective, the album Three Sides Live originally had 4 live sides, the fourth one was Prog and the producers had to delete that last side and release one sopecially for North America with a studio side that contauined songs as Paperlate, because very few people that listened Genesis on those years cared for Gabriel era, as a fact many of them didn't even knew gabrioel was ever a Genesis member.
You talked with two or three guys, yes cool, but that's not the target audience of this gig, wait until they make a meeting with Gabriel and Hacklett and then you will see a Prog Genesis audience that wouldn't ever leave before Carpet Crawlers.
That's all for me here, good luck pal, we will meet again in another thread but not in this one, it's getting boring.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 25 2007 at 22:09
|
|
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65244
|
Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:10 |
|
what a lovely array of colors...
|
|
progcabaretdoll
Forum Groupie
Joined: September 07 2007
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 84
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 06:26 |
KeleCableII wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot. |
SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!!
|
|
Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3491
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 12:47 |
Atavachron wrote:
what a lovely array of colors...
|
It'sss.... psychedelic! 
Edited by Zargus - September 26 2007 at 12:47
|
|
|
|
Floydian42
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 846
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:05 |
progcabaretdoll wrote:
KeleCableII wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot. |
SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!! |
But Gabriel also wrote Family Snapshot and Here comes the Flood, which IMO blows anything 80's Genesis did out of the water.
|
|
Shakespeare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 18 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 7744
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:14 |
Floydian42 wrote:
progcabaretdoll wrote:
KeleCableII wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot. |
SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!! |
But Gabriel also wrote Family Snapshot and Here comes the Flood, which IMO blows anything 80's Genesis did out of the water.
|
And let us not forget, in recent years, the Gabe has returned to a wholesome, progressive, lush sound, whereas Genesis is still deep in their pop nowadays.
|
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:26 |
Let's see,post Gabriel gems ... what can we mention - Ripples ( A favourite of Hackett), Dance on a Volcano, Turn it on Again, Abacab, Home by the Sea/Second Home by the Sea, That's All (among my top 5 Genesis songs from either era), Mama, Land of Confusion, Jesus he Know Me. Was the 80s Genesis more "pop" than 80s Gabriel ? Certainly, Gabriel maintained a more serious persona in his music. But on balance, both followed a more mainstream approach to the compositions.
|
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|
White Shadow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 259
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 18:26 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Ok, it's a waste of time, you will keep changing and over explaining everything you said before.
how did I change it? Once again you just say the same thing over and ignore what I say,Will only make a couple notes and that's all:
Oh, because I definitely haven't heard every album and am unable to see their evolution just because I wasn't alive.
If you haven't heard every album they released you're definetely not capable of understanding their eviolution completely, that's a fact.that was sarcasm. I was saying "because I wasn't alive when they were released, I was stopped from hearing every album". It was part of the same statement as the one below. It was clearly sarcastic.
I guess if you weren't alive when albums were released it is impossible to put them together and see the development over their course. I see your point now, if you listen to it when it was released, it sounds different than later on.
If you listen all their albums you are able to understand the evolution, but you have admitted in the last quote you have not even heard all their albums. again, it was sarcasm, I have heard every album.
BTW: Yes an album might sound different if you listened when released, because you are part of the cultural and historical moment, that's why some albums don't pass the test of time, they were OK in their natural context, but sound outdated when listened out of that context.how would it sound different? I might not get some things because I'm out of the context but I don't think I've ran into that problem yet and anyway, I could still judge it, musically. Albums don;t stand the test of time because they don't remain popular. That has to do with popularity and nothing to do with the music on the album.
You're wrong. Remeber you said you don't talk about things you don't know about? Well, the above reply is an assumption and a generalization, pal, and you weren't there. there were a lot of prog fans there. I talked to a guy who saw them in the tour when they recorded "Seconds Out". I also talked to two guys about Yes and King Crimson and another guy complimented me on my ATOTT shirt I bought.
There's something called reading, I'm member not only of PA but 5 or 6 Prog more sites and I read the opinions of most of the people there, it's logical to assume the vast majority is formed by three men era Genesis.
Now use your logic:
1.- The people left when Phil anounced it was an old song...ergo, we're talking about Pop Genesis fans, the Prog fans went to listen OLD tracks mostly. I said 15-20% (which is still a good amount) but last time I checked, that was not "vast majority".
2.- No old timer Genesis fan would leave in Carpet Crawlers after listening the whole concert.The majority was still there. It's not like the whole audience left, it was just a sad sight to see a large amount, or any amount for that matter leave like that.
3.- There's an historical perspective, the album Three Sides Live originally had 4 live sides, the fourth one was Prog and the producers had to delete that last side and release one sopecially for North America with a studio side that contauined songs as Paperlate, because very few people that listened Genesis on those years cared for Gabriel era, as a fact many of them didn't even knew gabrioel was ever a Genesis member.could you tell me the relevency of that? I don't understand your point. Besides, I don't believe you could find that album with "paperlate" in 2007. The one I bought was with the prog side 4.
You talked with two or three guys, yes cool, but that's not the target audience of this gig, wait until they make a meeting with Gabriel and Hacklett and then you will see a Prog Genesis audience that wouldn't ever leave before Carpet Crawlers.how can you say that? did you see the set list? There was more prog than pop. And for God's sake, they originally WANTED to get together with Peter and Steve and play the LAMB IN ITS ENTIRETY.
That's all for me here, good luck pal, we will meet again in another thread but not in this one, it's getting boring. sorry i haven't been entertaining you.
Iván
|
|
|
[signature]
|
|
Zargus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 3491
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 20:52 |
Time to sum up this thread..
|
|
|
|
White Shadow
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 20 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 259
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 22:07 |
Zargus wrote:
Time to sum up this thread..
|
funny
|
|
[signature]
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: September 26 2007 at 23:14 |
Done with this thread, a waste of time and a waste of valluable bandwith, If I have to analyze what is sarcasm, what yoiu didn't ment6 to say what was a mistake, etc,...Then there is no point.
Well, only one small thing:
how would it sound different? I might not get some things because I'm out of the context but I don't think I've ran into that problem yet and anyway, I could still judge it, musically. Albums don;t stand the test of time because they don't remain popular. That has to do with popularity and nothing to do with the music on the album.
First, try to use a color we all can read.
Most important, an album doesn't pass the test of time not because it looses popularity, that's absurd, an album doesn't pass the test of time because it sounds out of time, outdated.
Selling England by the Pound was never popular, but still sounds fresh, Invisible Touch is far more popular, modern and sounds totally ouut of time.
Meet teh Beatles would make no effect today in people, it's totally outdated while Abbey Road sounds fresh and both were equally popular in their moment, the first Beatles album didn't pass the test of time.
BTW: Yes music sounds different TO THE LISTENER, if you had listened In a Gadda Da Vida when released it could sounded as a prog masterpiece with it's 11 minutes organ solo but if you listen it now and after having listened real Prog bands, you would notice it's barely Prog.
Ok that's all
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 26 2007 at 23:16
|
|
|
|
Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
|
Posted: September 27 2007 at 12:49 |
|
I need to be insulted. I haven`t been insulted for a while. Come at me. Give me your worst ya weeds. By the way I actually have every single Genesis album including Spot The Pigeon. So I`ve actually given these guys MONEY.
|
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
|
Posted: September 27 2007 at 16:18 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
I need to be insulted. I haven`t been insulted for a while. Come at me. Give me your worst ya weeds. By the way I actually have every single Genesis album including Spot The Pigeon. So I`ve actually given these guys MONEY. |
Equal shares for all, or a little less for the drummer ...
|
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|
Squonk_hunter
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 09 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2
|
Posted: December 10 2007 at 00:10 |
|
I didn't get a chance to see them but, from the videos that I have seen and the songs they played I believe they did pretty well. They managed to play what I thought were more of the "prog friendly" songs than the pop ones. Songs like Ripples, Carpet Crawl, Dominoes, Cage/Afterglow and Home by the sea. And bringing back I know what I like was a nice touch.
|
|
Teh_Slippermenz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 321
|
Posted: December 10 2007 at 01:20 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
...The audience that goes to a tour without Gabriel and Hacklett is audience that doesn't like old struff.
Iván
|
I must disagree, for I was there, DISGUSTED when some of the people filed out during Crawlers, but there were some people who stayed and one even sang along. True, most of the people who were there were Collins\Genesis fans (I facepalmed when I saw a guy in a Phil Collins t-shirt, but saw nothing of a Gabriel or Hackett t-shirt...meh, at least the Collins shirt had a nice design?), but not ALL old fans hate the newer material. (Although I admit, as a fan of Gabriel-era\early Collins-era Genesis, that I don't like anything past "Abacab". Wait...I guess I do, but only one or two songs. They DID get weaker after Abacab...I was sad when I took another listen to a copy of "We Can't Dance" that I have. The end of it was the middle of the EIGHT YEAR LONG "Fading Lights") Also, I have some evidence they they retained their progressive roots well into the 80s: 1. Dodo/Lurker. This may have been something they may have even recorded with GABRIEL, had they survived with him into the 80s. No, I'm kidding. Still progressive, though. It's way ahead of the rest of the album, and Phil's deep vocals are great on this track. Besides, they couldn't run around doing "Selling England by the Pound" all of their lives, this change was good. 2. Who Dunnit? That's right. It's a JOKE song, put on the album because Atlantic Records told Genesis to. However, this isn't Z0MG NUMBAR WAN HIT material. It is indeed prog, EXPERIMENTAL prog. I'll admit that what came after (Man on the Corner...) is awful, and prog's mortal enemy. 3. Second Home by the Sea. OK, not Z0MG PROG LIKE TEH MUSICAL BOX, but prog enough. It showed that Genesis still had it in them to do good, progressive instrumentals. The rest of the album besides the first "By the Sea" and "Mama" is crap. I hate the rest of the album, I'll admit that. 4. Domino. Kind of feels like they're throwing a bone, but it's a progressive pop SUITE. They hadn't done a suite since "Supper's Ready" in 1972. It's 10:42, and it's a gem amongst the rest of the mediocre, Phil Collins-esque (In Too Deep) songs. 5. Duke. The infamous lost Genesis suite. THEY DROPPED IT BECAUSE THEY FEARED COMPARISONS TO SR! THAT'S how much they wanted to get away from that kind of thing. They didn't sell out, they were just tired of playing the same old crap (well, it's not crap, but...) over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. However, the suite WAS performed in concert. 6. Duke's Travels. Arguably their best instrumental. Tracks like these are the reason I don't regard ATTW3 as highly as "Duke", unfortunately. The awesome reprise of "Guide Vocal" at the end, with Tony Banks's synthesizers, has to be the best moment of the song. 7. Duke's End. I don't know, I think this qualifies as PROG. This is the end of the "Duke" suite: "Behind the Lines", "Duchess", "Guide Vocal", "Turn it on Again", "Duke's Travels" and "Duke's End", this is an energetic reprise of BtL, giving the album that bookend theme that was on SEBTP and ATOTT.
Edited by Teh_Slippermenz - December 10 2007 at 15:49
|
|
Teh_Slippermenz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 321
|
Posted: December 10 2007 at 01:24 |
progcabaretdoll wrote:
KeleCableII wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but don't forget Peter Gabriel would go on to write Sledgehammer. I prefer 80s Genesis to 80s Gabriel by a longshot. |
SLEDGEHAMMER is a fun, fun, fun pop song!! |
*facepalm* It's not that good, it's decent, but he's an alternative rock (of sorts) musician, not a pop musician. Sure, he's had a couple of good run-ins with pop rock, but his experimental stuff is far better. Although, I don't hate Gabriel in the 80s. SAN JACINTO? LEAD A NORMAL LIFE? MERCY STREET? HELLO?? BTW, I always thought "Us" > "So". More artistic than "So" IMO. "So" was his sell-out album save for "Red Rain" and "Mercy Street". Maybe the couple of songs at the end as well.
Edited by Teh_Slippermenz - December 10 2007 at 18:35
|
|
Teh_Slippermenz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 321
|
Posted: December 10 2007 at 01:29 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[QUOTE=White Shadow]
Again you can't understand why i don't like ATTW3 and Duke? Here are some reasons:
- Because W&W has Eleventh Earl of mar, One for the Vine, All ion a mouse night, Blood on the Rooftops, etc all great Prog tracks and only one track I don't like at all called Your Own Special Way, while I don't care for a single ATTW3 track except maybe "Deep in the Motherlode"
- Because W&W had Steve Hackett adding the most fabulous atmospheres while ATTW3 has nothing that renminds me to the classic Genesis and Mike Rutherford making awful guitar parts.
- Because W&W is a return to the roots even with powerful lyrics aster the transitionl ATOTT which is my least favorite Prog Genesis album and the next albums are blander thanm i could expect from Genesis.
|
I'm going to have to agree here. ATTW3 was sort of weak. But I disagree on "Your Own Special Way", it's a hell of a lot better than "More Fool Me", and it's still sort of progressive, I don't remember too many other ballads like that until the 80s. Also, Steve Hackett's version with Paul Carrack is actually a lot better. Although, ATTW3 has a couple of good songs, for instance, "Down and Out", "Follow You Follow Me" (laugh while you can, it's got a good synthesizer solo), and "Deep in the Motherlode". Especially the latter. Also, maybe "Many Too Many", as it seems to be the last use of the Mellotron by Genesis.
Edited by Teh_Slippermenz - December 10 2007 at 15:51
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Genesis Montreal
