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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 22:18 |
mrgd wrote:
I Now, this is the whole point. I have no doubt that
they should be included under the ever expanding 'Jazz/ Rock Fusion'
banner. That Donald described himself and Walter to the audience as '
jazz/ rock survivors of the 70s' provides some clue, but then they
started on their set list and their music just oozed it initially and
then exploded with it, as they launched into some of their most
challenging numbers from that ground breaking album 'Aja', dicussed in
a very intelligent way in the excerpt provided by MICKY above. These
songs included Aja itself, Black Cow and Home at Last, in addition to
the staples, Peg and Josie. Perhaps the more pop influenced moments
came from Hey Nineteen which rocked with the live arrangement and an
arrangement of Dirty Work, the main purpose of which was to feature the
considerable skills of their two backing vocalists who handled all
their vocal contributions with aplomb.
The rest was predominantly fusion music played with such expertise
in performance and arrangement that any fusion / prog fusion devotee
would just lap it up. I joyously did.
So there's no question about imo. IN
[ I'm not sure how I managed to miss this thread. As there have
been many like it, I thought I had already contributed . Now I have for
what it's worth. I hope I don't give it he KOD]. |
one thing we know though... is if there is one group of purists that
can give prog purists a run for their money... it is jazz
purists. I think the guy who wrote the article sort of danced
around that. It seems fine to amp up the rock in jazz... but what
about amping up the jazz in rock. Is is still Jazz-Rock? I
would think it is a no brainer... but for all the people that cry about
labels and blaa blaa blaa... just as many will resort to those to
them to try to sweep under the carpet groups that challenge their
preconcieved notions of what or what not something is. (sounds
....prog-like doesn't it) Oh well.... as I said it my first post
in this thread.. whether they are here or not.. doesn't really
matter.... the fans wil go on loving it.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 02 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 822
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 21:09 |
I came back from Brisbane [Aust].after seeing them live on their 'Heavy Rollers 2007' tour last Sunday week, proudly sporting my 'Steely Dan T- shirt',[ on this occasion an 'Aja' design in the image of that wonderful album], extremely enthusiastic following the wonderment of the excellent concert I had seen and a little perplexed [ other than in my own mind] as to exactly where they fit in the genre laden world of music that is generally regarded as progressive.
[For those interested, I have posted a review of the concert under a 'Non Prog Music ' thread topic . I thought I might be crucified if I squeezed it in to the 'Live Performance Review' forum , as it seems to require the band reviewed to be prog - something which is not accepted here , universally or by majority, slim or otherwise].
Now, this is the whole point. I have no doubt that they should be included under the ever expanding 'Jazz/ Rock Fusion' banner. That Donald described himself and Walter to the audience as ' jazz/ rock survivors of the 70s' provides some clue, but then they started on their set list and their music just oozed it initially and then exploded with it, as they launched into some of their most challenging numbers from that ground breaking album 'Aja', dicussed in a very intelligent way in the excerpt provided by MICKY above. These songs included Aja itself, Black Cow and Home at Last, in addition to the staples, Peg and Josie. Perhaps the more pop influenced moments came from Hey Nineteen which rocked with the live arrangement and an arrangement of Dirty Work, the main purpose of which was to feature the considerable skills of their two backing vocalists who handled all their vocal contributions with aplomb.
The rest was predominantly fusion music played with such expertise in performance and arrangement that any fusion / prog fusion devotee would just lap it up. I joyously did.
So there's no question about imo. IN
[ I'm not sure how I managed to miss this thread. As there have been many like it, I thought I had already contributed . Now I have for what it's worth. I hope I don't give it he KOD].
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 19:00 |
Peter wrote:
I too enjoy Steely Dan, and see them as being above average in their field, and I can also understand why some might think they'd make a logical addition to Prog Archives, BUT...
since this is an inclusive site.... maybe it should be taken up.. we do this to educate the forum.
I just don't see their supposed connection to prog. I was there as a prog fan in the 70s, when SD had hit after hit on the radio -- they were never a prog, or prog-like, or "prog related" band to me or my friends. To my ears, their music is related to jazz (smooth jazz, at that), "blue-eyed" soul, classic rock, & rhythm & blues.
see the article I quoted... granted it is
only an opinion... but he makes pretty clear..and spends a hell
of a lot of time explaining.. that it is not jazz-related.. .but jazz
fusion. or Jazz-rock. Whatever you want to call it.
I really can't imagine a Steely Dan fan being drawn to this site
try he music fan that likes complex music, with
thoughtful lyrics... that you don't need to spend 20 minutes listening
to.. and most importantly ... as you so eloquently said Peter... music
you can also seal the deal with the ladies with. Try doing that
with Van Der Graf. There are lots of SD fans here Peter... that is the whole point here
Now, I won't throw a fit if SD get added
(life is too short, and in the larger scheme of things, these "issues"
are quite trivial), but I think that their inclusion here, no matter the category,
would lead to a growing chorus of boos and hisses, along with calls for
the addition of other artists who are deemed to be simply "very good at
what they do" or "progressive for their genre." Thus enters "prog new
wave" "prog punk" "prog country" (Ie, "alt" country) "prog dance" "prog
bluegrass" "prog reggae" etc.
you sound like Ivan with his fears that we will
have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for Austrian prog to have it's
own sub. If they had a scene we'd know it. If there were
true prog punk, or prog country groups... we'd know it. People
would be calling for them. Most importantly though.. .JR IS a subgenre here.
At some point, we have to refuse admission and lock the floodgates,
I have called for that since I became active as a collab.. yet the fact reamins that M@X and the admins want an inclusive site.
Thanks for reading -- I hope you can understand my position on this.
I hope my position is undestood as well ...
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Edited by micky - September 25 2007 at 19:04
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
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Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 11979
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:46 |
Peter's post is a perfect, far more eloquent statement of my own thoughts.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:38 |
couldn't find it online.. so it must have been a book.. ... the
interviewer had asked him to compare the complex music of SD to that of
Yes.. the answer.. typical Fagen
anyhow... food for thought... did find this though.. For those who think Steely Dan were jazz related or some sh*t like that.
When it comes to
fusion, most critics consider jazz's acceptance of rock,
but not rock's acceptance of jazz. That has been quite
unfortunate, since when it comes to the music of Donald Fagen and
Walter Becker, better known as Steely Dan, many have missed out on some
visionary fusion. Since their second album, Countdown to Ecstasy,
Fagen/Becker have immersed their music in jazz. They even covered
Duke's "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" on the brilliant Pretzel Logic.
Throughout their career they would experiment back and forth, engaging
in some amazing results. But none of their albums captured this
approach better than 1977's Aja (pronounced asia).
One of The
Dan's major characteristics that has won them legions of
fans is their devotion to articulate and complex music, usually played
by a make shift band of top notch studio musicians. The second one
features the dark perverse sense of humor that flows through Donald
Fagen's lyrics in his deadpan delivery. Aja
lightens up the perversity of the lyrics, but it's more
intricate and complex than any of the other records. Essential to
understanding Aja is understanding Steely Dan's
commitment of having the production to sound completely flawless. That
means they refuse to let any bad or missed notes in a solo reach the
final product. With the exception of the utterly "free" solos like
Wayne Shorter's on the title track, every note has been
painstakingly envisioned and thought out by Fagen and Becker before it
is mastered to the final product. Much like their idols such as Duke
Ellington, they complete the whole picture before laying the paint on
the canvas. That distinguishes their work from most recorded jazz, in
which spontaneity is prized no matter what imperfections may result.
After spending a
good portion of their time touring (which they hated), the guys settled
in with some of the best studio musicians around and began to do
strictly studio work--much to the dismay of their record company. After
completing another great record, Katy Lied, and the so-so rock album Royal Scam without a hit single or tour, ABC Records put the pressure on for some radio-friendly pop singles. The result was Aja.
Although it's got a lot of long, intricate and complex
jazz-based tracks, strangely enough it became a hit and even won a
Grammy. Upon its release many cited it as the band's
best effort, while others decried it as a bloated ego trip full of
crack musicians. As it stands now, Aja stands as an absolutely
brilliant slice of smooth that could easily stand beside such records
as George Benson's Breezin or Grover Washington Jrs Mister Magic.
Opening with a
track about a man forgiving his cheating wife, "Black Cow" sets the
soft-toned texture of the record. Subtle drops of piano, horns and
synths flourish in and out through the track, while Tom
Scott's horn pulls the track together. For the most part
the record continues in this vein. Its a world of
soft-as-silk jazz that would be popular with in the 80s
with a variety of performers. But on tracks such as "Peg," pop chops
slide into the mix. Although this may seem discouraging for some, "Peg"
is a beauty of a pop based jazz that few songwriters have ever pulled
off. Its layers of synth and horns mixed with gorgeous harmonies proved
pop doesnt have to be entirely based on three chord
progressions. But the two most experimental tracks are also the most
satisfying: "Aja" and "Deacon Blues."
These two pieces
make this disc a good starting point for the jazz
loversfirst adventure into Steely Dan. The title track
certainly corners their jazz vision unlike any other. From the amazing
Wayne Shorter solo to the graceful touches of Michael
Omartians piano, Dans vision of smooth
jazz was never as fully realized. "Deacon Blues," although a single, is
by far one of their finest tracks. Its based on a solid
funk line, driven by Chuck Raineys bass. Subtle solos,
like Pete Christliebs sax work, recall the work of the
late Grover Washington Jr. This intuitive combination helps make all
angles of the track genius. Filled with synth, plus acoustic and
electric guitars via Becker and Larry Carlton, this piece offers a
hypnotic taste of various fusions, showing the unique vision that only
Steely Dan could possess.
Aja stands
as a unique record in both the jazz and pop genres. It is laid out with
complex horn charts, a variety of synths, blazing solos and oddly timed
songs. The album creates an original fusion that may seem strangely out
of place by jazz or rock enthusiasts, yet its perfectly
natural for listeners comfortable in each genre.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:23 |
can't remember the quote.. but Fagen in the 70's was asked about Steely Dan's music vs. Yes. It was illluminating hahhah
damn I need to find where I read that...
Edited by micky - September 25 2007 at 18:24
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 18:15 |
I guess you have a point, It seems I am blurring artistic, prog, and innovative together a bit...
I need to get my priorities straight, but for someone who wasnt around in the seventies, it isnt unreasonable for them to think SD could be sudo progressive.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: September 25 2007 at 15:56 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
Peter wrote:
schizoid_man77 wrote:
BTW
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored. | So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
"prog" = "artistic" now?
Hmmmm..... |
Lets not get offensive, I just think that they give off a vibe with something more than your average swingy, pop, jazz rock group if you get where I'm comin' from. |
I apologize for the seemingly disrespectful tone of my reply. I do like to argue these musical matters in a forthright, forceful fashion, but sometimes this text-only, faceless medium leads me to forget my manners. (To be honest, I had some doubts about my post myself.)
I too enjoy Steely Dan, and see them as being above average in their field, and I can also understand why some might think they'd make a logical addition to Prog Archives, BUT...
I just don't see their supposed connection to prog. I was there as a prog fan in the 70s, when SD had hit after hit on the radio -- they were never a prog, or prog-like, or "prog related" band to me or my friends. To my ears, their music is related to jazz (smooth jazz, at that), "blue-eyed" soul, classic rock, & rhythm & blues.
I really can't imagine a Steely Dan fan being drawn to this site by them, then turning to classic prog, or 99.999% of what is listed here, and saying "Oh, this music is quite similar to Steely Dan." Nor would I recommend (old) Yes, ELP, Genesis, Gentle Giant, or IQ, or the Mars Volta, or prog metal, etc, to someone simply because he told me he likes SD.
I think the widely-accepted interpretation of the term "progressive rock/prog," or even "prog related" has to be narrower than you'd make it, or else whatever shreds of meaning that outdated term might still have are lost.
Now, I won't throw a fit if SD get added (life is too short, and in the larger scheme of things, these "issues" are quite trivial), but I think that their inclusion here, no matter the category, would lead to a growing chorus of boos and hisses, along with calls for the addition of other artists who are deemed to be simply "very good at what they do" or "progressive for their genre." Thus enters "prog new wave" "prog punk" "prog country" (Ie, "alt" country) "prog dance" "prog bluegrass" "prog reggae" etc.
At some point, we have to refuse admission and lock the floodgates, or else this site will need a name change and new, much-broader focus to allow the addition of ALL forms of music, and all of the diverse stuff which we (many and varied) progfans enjoy and consider "good."
Heck, I like The Eagles, Dwight Yoakam, Lyle Lovett, Wilco and Steve Earle. To me, they're well above average for "country" artists, and they push the boundaries of country, blend and explore various genres, etc. If I managed to have them added (not that I want to) would Dolly Parton, George Strait and Shania Twain be far behind? (Those latter ultra-commercial country artists would be related to my favourites, now wouldn't they?)
Thanks for reading -- I hope you can understand my position on this.
Edited by Peter - September 25 2007 at 16:04
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:14 |
Peter wrote:
schizoid_man77 wrote:
BTW
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored. | So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
"prog" = "artistic" now?
Hmmmm..... |
Lets not get offensive, I just think that they give off a vibe with something more than your average swingy, pop, jazz rock group if you get where I'm comin' from.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:09 |
^ Andu, I colour my ol' PA comrade Ivan the Terrible red from way back, when I first used to tease him about his "commie" Russian name.
A little inside joke 'twixt he and I, doncha know!
Plus, he's such a bleeding heart leftist....
Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 22:10
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:02 |
Peter wrote:
micky wrote:
you are a piece of work Peter Looking forward to meeting you someday when I get back out west. |
Thanks, Mickle.
Nine out of ten progholes who've met me agree: I'm up to 63% more handsome in real life (and seemingly thinner in metric, too).
And that's left of east, then north, to you.
Here's a map:
North Pole (no penguins)
^
^ (trees stop here)
^
Peter
^
^
_____________________________________________________________
^ (International Smog Line)
^
Micky
v
v
v
v (civil rights stop here)
v
v
v
Ivan
v
v
v ^
penguins N
W Tony
S
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We need to keep this safe and never lose it! Just one correction, though: the blue font was needed for Ivan
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 22:00 |
I think the Steely Dan controversy is actually kind of interesting.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:56 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
BTW
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored. | So, who's ignoring them? Do you think we can help advance their struggling career, and piddling sales by listing them here?
"prog" = "artistic" now?
Hmmmm.....
Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 21:58
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:52 |
Re the Chinese prog, I found these oddly familiar lyrics, from a Fuking prog outfit called No!
"I get up,
I get run down (by a tank)
I get up
I get run down (by a tank)...."
Hmmmm... the mystical meaning is unclear, but apparently it's available on a compilation called Greatest Hits of Glorious People's Red Army Against Traitorous Malcontent Running Dogs of Capitalist Imperialism.
Catchy title, anyway....
Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 21:53
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:47 |
BTW
I think we should seriously consider putting Steely Dan in Jazz/Rock, they are way to artistic to just be simply ignored.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:43 |
Snurk! Titter!
Thanks , KoSi fan tutti!
Vroom vroom,
KLR,
P
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:37 |
Oh, that's brilliant.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 21:35 |
micky wrote:
you are a piece of work Peter Looking forward to meeting you someday when I get back out west. |
Thanks, Mickle.
Nine out of ten progholes who've met me agree: I'm up to 63% more handsome in real life (and seemingly thinner in metric, too).
And that's left of east, then north, to you.
Here's a map:
North Pole (no penguins)
^
^ (trees stop here)
^
Peter
^
^
_____________________________________________________________
^ (International Smog Line)
^
Micky
v
v
v
v (civil rights stop here)
v
v
v
Ivan
v
v
v ^
penguins N
W Tony
S
Edited by Peter - September 24 2007 at 21:36
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:39 |
I wish I had Aja or pretzel logic.
I have Gaucho and some greatest hits album, but they are a bit too poppy, with minimal jazz jam session time as what seem to be on the above two. Great band though, just need a bit more.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Posted: September 24 2007 at 20:33 |
I think they are one HELL of a group Dean... I'll see about getting you some samples
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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