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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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 Posted: September 13 2007 at 00:25 |
 BroSpence wrote:
It is too bad you spent a lot of time writing a reply and then deleting it because of one line. You say I am guilty of not providing evidence in many parts of my reply, yet you have little to no evidence in your case as well. You have said many times that various genres are dead and that prog is one of the longest lasting in the Rock field, but fail to back it up except by saying many bands send their CDs to progarchives and even non-prog artists wish to be included.
It's not one phrase, is the attitude of believing that just answetring NO or Not True or Insist but that's false are some of the things we fighted as a forum, music is not a science, in most cases there are no right or wrong answers, only different perspectives and opinions.
Again no Bro Spence, as much as i like Prog I also follow other genres, exc´pt Rap, Hip Hop and some alternative, most genres are in decadence, the mainstream market is mostly covered by Rap and hip Hop, even Pop is on retreat.
You also need to share your definition of what a "pure" punk band is. Additionally, I never said there were any "pure" disco groups out right now. It is very possible that there could be, but I do not follow that genre closely so I do not know whether there is or is not. I said the genre never died because it split off and influenced many other genres that are still around today. It was even influential to Prog.
Pure Punk is Punk as theior pioneers wanted it to be, contestatary, extremey sinmmple, mainly two or 3 chords songs, aggressive and antio commercial, nonoe of those early characteriostics is present in todays bands as you accept.
If it splits to the point that looses all it's identity, it's not more the genre that was once created, while today you can listen gundreeds of bands sounding like Prog in the 70's, 80's and 90's, the essense of Prog has not changed.
For your pleasure here is my evidence for these parts:
How do you know? Do you work for rockarchives? classicrockarchives? punkarchives? I'm sure plenty of bands send their albums to you guys, but loads of bands send their albums out to loads of places. |
If you need evidence for this then here it is. I spend a lot of my time well outside of prog rock. In fact this site is about the only place I go when it comes to finding out about progressive rock news, albums, etc. Outside of that I go to tons of local concerts and arts events 90% of which feature non-prog artists. Styles featured include punk, alternative/college rock, pop rock, ska, dance, electronic, folk rock, folk, singer-songwriter, world, hard rock, rock and roll, surf rock, and many many more styles. I also have friends that work at independent radio stations which receive numerous CDs from all different styles of artists such as rap, alternative, folk, pop rock, jazz, prog, post-rock, and so on.
I also help in a radio and visit as many pages of Rockl existing, I try to keep informed and no genre is growing in the rate of Prog in the last years, except the already mentioned rap and Hip Hop, maybe alternative keeps a level.
Prog is a style of music.
Prog is a genre with it's own characteristics, not a style or a mood.
It is marketable to many people and at one time was quite popular and well received.
But it was never a fashion, only mainstream bands reached Grammys and awards, Prog was always ignored by most of the music listening community.
Same is true of other genres it all depends on how the product is marketed. Prog is not as fashionable as it once was,
Again, Prog was ever a fashion, it was more popular inm the 70¡s than in the 80's or 90's but always a minority, almost no airplay, no mention in awards.
Magazines dedicated pagesdto criticize it or simply ignored Prog.....That's not a fashion, I don't know if you, but I was there in the late 70's and always Prog was accepted by a small minority, representative yes, but not a fashion.
Plus, Prog was about music, nobody cared how cool you looked if you were a Prog fan (By the contrary, Prog was considered uncool), nobody cared for how the musicians dressed, some used capes, others costumes but most dressed as the average joe.
but many people still love it, and play it. As you mentioned in one section even metal and alternative bands wish for inclusion. Seems they want to be in on the fashion.
Probably they want to be a fashion, everyubody wants to make some profit of their career, but they never were one, just an almost underground genre.
Evidence: That is a huge generalization. There were keyboards in rock before and after the conception of prog. It does not mean a band wishes to be prog because it has a keyboardist. Some alt-rock and metal bans that fit: The Cure, Depeche Mode, Suicide, My Morning Jacket, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom, Elvis Costello and Attractions, Emperor, Sparklehorse, Granddaddy, Flaming Lips, Hot Hot Heat, Wolf Parade, and many more....
If you check Prog Metal has grown out of proportion, bands that have no relation with Prog, only because they have a couple of Baroque keyboard solos claim they are Prog Metal, and honestly, most of them sound exactly the same, they want to see Ptrog Metal as a sub-genre of Metal rather than as a Prog Sub-genre, when they go to Prog sites, they proclaim they are a different specie than Progressive Rock.
evidence: As I said insisting it doesn't make things true. I could insist Elvis is alive, but we all know he is dead (his heart stopped and is disintegrated by now).
Genres older than prog that still have life in them: Rock and Roll Surf rock Alt-rock Psychedelic rock blues rock garage rock a capella folk rock pop rock/teen pop country rock rockabilly singer/songwriter and those are just in the rock "umbrella" before prog that are still around. There are more post-prog conception, and in the R&B genre.
That's not evidence at all, it's only a list of Rock Sub-genres or moods
Iván
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The Wizard
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: September 13 2007 at 21:28 |
Patti Smith, Television, The Fall, Pere Ubu, Richard Hell, Swell Maps, The Clash, The Stranglers, there's too much amazing punk too ignore. These are all great punk bands that expanded the boundaries of rock and definetely had more to them than what many ignorant people here classify as punk. Also, some of the greatest poets I know of come out of the New York punk scene, Patti Smith, Richard Hell, and Tom Verlaine are all amongst the best lyricist i've ever heard.
Also remember: without punk much of the RIO and Post Rock we all love wouldn't be nearly as great as it is.
Edited by The Wizard - September 13 2007 at 21:31
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BroSpence
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 17:28 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BroSpence wrote:
It is too bad you spent a lot of time writing a reply and then deleting it because of one line. You say I am guilty of not providing evidence in many parts of my reply, yet you have little to no evidence in your case as well. You have said many times that various genres are dead and that prog is one of the longest lasting in the Rock field, but fail to back it up except by saying many bands send their CDs to progarchives and even non-prog artists wish to be included.
It's not one phrase, is the attitude of believing that just answetring NO or Not True or Insist but that's false are some of the things we fighted as a forum, music is not a science, in most cases there are no right or wrong answers, only different perspectives and opinions.
Well it seems so obvious that these genres are still alive and kicking and that prog like all the other genres is a fashion that my no or false replies to your generalizations don't need backing up. I could understand not replying if the entire post was just nos and one word answers, but that was not the case.
Again no Bro Spence, as much as i like Prog I also follow other genres, exc´pt Rap, Hip Hop and some alternative, most genres are in decadence, the mainstream market is mostly covered by Rap and hip Hop, even Pop is on retreat.
Rap has actually been on the decline and emo groups and rock bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Hinder, Nickleback, etc are seeing pretty good profits compared to other artists. Reunion acts are also seeing big bucks and some are even talking about recording or already are recording new albums. That being said the major labels as a whole are having big money problems and independent labels seem to be able to sign and release better artists, and shift their marketing much easier than the 3 mega labels can.
You also need to share your definition of what a "pure" punk band is. Additionally, I never said there were any "pure" disco groups out right now. It is very possible that there could be, but I do not follow that genre closely so I do not know whether there is or is not. I said the genre never died because it split off and influenced many other genres that are still around today. It was even influential to Prog.
Pure Punk is Punk as theior pioneers wanted it to be, contestatary, extremey sinmmple, mainly two or 3 chords songs, aggressive and antio commercial, nonoe of those early characteriostics is present in todays bands as you accept.
Well, there is the Addicts, the Exploited, the Buzzcocks, the Damned, The Fall, U.K Subs, Dillinger Four, Sonic Youth, Richard Hell, Fear, Grinderman, Radio Birdman, X, Mission of Burma.
If it splits to the point that looses all it's identity, it's not more the genre that was once created, while today you can listen gundreeds of bands sounding like Prog in the 70's, 80's and 90's, the essense of Prog has not changed.
Yes that could be true, except it is still clearly identifiable and with identity. I mean even some of the old disco artists are still touring, recording and producing. For your pleasure here is my evidence for these parts:
How do you know? Do you work for rockarchives? classicrockarchives? punkarchives? I'm sure plenty of bands send their albums to you guys, but loads of bands send their albums out to loads of places. |
If you need evidence for this then here it is. I spend a lot of my time well outside of prog rock. In fact this site is about the only place I go when it comes to finding out about progressive rock news, albums, etc. Outside of that I go to tons of local concerts and arts events 90% of which feature non-prog artists. Styles featured include punk, alternative/college rock, pop rock, ska, dance, electronic, folk rock, folk, singer-songwriter, world, hard rock, rock and roll, surf rock, and many many more styles. I also have friends that work at independent radio stations which receive numerous CDs from all different styles of artists such as rap, alternative, folk, pop rock, jazz, prog, post-rock, and so on.
I also help in a radio and visit as many pages of Rockl existing, I try to keep informed and no genre is growing in the rate of Prog in the last years, except the already mentioned rap and Hip Hop, maybe alternative keeps a level.Well that seems like quite an assumption. I'd say a lot genres have grown or are growing since the 1960s considering how easy it is to record and release material (as I said earlier). Also as I said before
| I go to tons of local concerts and arts events 90% of which feature
non-prog artists. Styles featured include punk, alternative/college
rock, pop rock, ska, dance, electronic, folk rock, folk,
singer-songwriter, world, hard rock, rock and roll, surf rock, and many
many more styles. I also have friends that work at independent radio
stations which receive numerous CDs from all different styles of
artists such as rap, alternative, folk, pop rock, jazz, prog,
post-rock, and so on. |
Prog is a style of music.
Prog is a genre with it's own characteristics, not a style or a mood.
A genre is a style. Every genre/style has its own characteristics, and mood.
It is marketable to many people and at one time was quite popular and well received.
But it was never a fashion, only mainstream bands reached Grammys and awards, Prog was always ignored by most of the music listening community.
And you don't think Yes was more fashionable within the community than Atomic Rooster? Yes is even fashionable people not in the prog community. Roundabout is constantly on the radio even more so than Owner of a Lonely Heart. Also as I and you mentioned before: PINK FLOYD. A band that has two of the best selling albums of all time.
Same is true of other genres it all depends on how the product is marketed. Prog is not as fashionable as it once was,
Again, Prog was ever a fashion, it was more popular inm the 70¡s than in the 80's or 90's but always a minority, almost no airplay, no mention in awards.
Award shows barely mention anyone or anything aside from the 5 artists nominated. You say Prog was never a fashion which you follow up by saying it was more popular in the 70s than 80s and 90s. You also have mentioned that thousands of bands send in material for inclusion on the boards. If prog isn't a fashion and does not sell well why would a band send in material to a prog site if they were looking to make money? Wouldn't that mean they would become less popular and make less money?
Magazines dedicated pagesdto criticize it or simply ignored Prog.....That's not a fashion, I don't know if you, but I was there in the late 70's and always Prog was accepted by a small minority, representative yes, but not a fashion.
And magazines dedicate pages to trashing Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and its all people talk about but that doesn't mean they're not a fashion.
Plus, Prog was about music, nobody cared how cool you looked if you were a Prog fan (By the contrary, Prog was considered uncool), nobody cared for how the musicians dressed, some used capes, others costumes but most dressed as the average joe.
Well a lot of genres are about the music. And only superficial assholes really care how you look. Superficial assholes plague all genres.
but many people still love it, and play it. As you mentioned in one section even metal and alternative bands wish for inclusion. Seems they want to be in on the fashion.
Probably they want to be a fashion, everyubody wants to make some profit of their career, but they never were one, just an almost underground genre.
So if the bands wish to be a fashion and make a profit they go to a prog site for inclusion to do so even though you been saying this whole time that prog is not a fashion?
Evidence: That is a huge generalization. There were keyboards in rock before and after the conception of prog. It does not mean a band wishes to be prog because it has a keyboardist. Some alt-rock and metal bans that fit: The Cure, Depeche Mode, Suicide, My Morning Jacket, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom, Elvis Costello and Attractions, Emperor, Sparklehorse, Granddaddy, Flaming Lips, Hot Hot Heat, Wolf Parade, and many more....
If you check Prog Metal has grown out of proportion, bands that have no relation with Prog, only because they have a couple of Baroque keyboard solos claim they are Prog Metal, and honestly, most of them sound exactly the same, they want to see Ptrog Metal as a sub-genre of Metal rather than as a Prog Sub-genre, when they go to Prog sites, they proclaim they are a different specie than Progressive Rock.
I have no doubt that progmetal has grown out of proportion and that there are a good amount of bands that aren't really related that are included. However, I mentioned groups that did/do not wish to be or try to be prog that used keyboards to address you saying that "every alternative and metal band with a keyboard wishes for inclusion on progarchives". You have not addressed my post, only given your opinion on progmetal's proportionis getting out of hand on this website.
evidence: As I said insisting it doesn't make things true. I could insist Elvis is alive, but we all know he is dead (his heart stopped and is disintegrated by now).
Genres older than prog that still have life in them:Rock and Roll (stray cats, Brian Setzer, Chris Isaak, Jerry Lee Lewis...)Surf rock (Dick Dales, The Ventures, Los Straightjackets, The Sir Finks...)Alt-rock (Wolf Parade, Radiohead, Doris Henson...)Psychedelic rock (Acid Mothers Temple, Dungen, Ghost...)blues rock (Allman Brothers Band, Buddy Guy, Jimmie Vaughan, Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones...)garage rock (The Mooney Suzuki, The Fleshtones, The Mummies...)a capella (Da Vinci's Notebook, The Bobs, The Nylons, Rockapella...)folk rock (Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Fairport Convention, Hot Tuna...)pop rock/teen pop (Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Hanson, Paul McCartney...)country rock (Eagles, Alabama, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Emmylou Harris, Levon Helm...)rockabilly (Sonny Burgess, Sleepy LaBeef, Reverend Horton Heat...)singer/songwriter (Van Morrison, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez...)
and those are just in the rock "umbrella" before prog that are still around. There are more post-prog conception, and in the R&B genre.
That's not evidence at all, it's only a list of Rock Sub-genres or moods
Well I figured since I had already mentioned several artists in those genres (in my posts) that still work today I didn't need to include a list of people from those genres that are so clearly alive. Also they are rock sub-genres like prog, not moods, but are not exclusive from moods of the performers, listeners or sounds. Anyways if you so desire I've included some examples of people in each genre that work or still work.
Iván
BroSpence
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Edited by BroSpence - September 14 2007 at 17:31
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 21:22 |
BroSpence wrote:
Well it seems so obvious that these genres are still alive and kicking and that prog like all the other genres is a fashion that my no or false replies to your generalizations don't need backing up. I could understand not replying if the entire post was just nos and one word answers, but that was not the case.
Why is it a fashion please? Because you say it?
Your only argument has been Prog is a fashion as ecery ghenre because some people like it.
Rap has actually been on the decline and emo groups and rock bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Hinder, Nickleback, etc are seeing pretty good profits compared to other artists. Reunion acts are also seeing big bucks and some are even talking about recording or already are recording new albums. That being said the major labels as a whole are having big money problems and independent labels seem to be able to sign and release better artists, and shift their marketing much easier than the 3 mega labels can.
EMO and Rap are much younger than Prog, I don't know about the other bands you mention, their sales, popularity, etc.
Reunion concerts are always profitable, that means nothing, if ABBA who are as dead as Adam and Eve made a reunion tour, they would gather thousands of persons buying tickets and full stadiums, that doesn't mean they are alive, if they ever make a gig and start to release new material again I would believe they are alive, otherwise they are dead band
Well, there is the Addicts, the Exploited, the Buzzcocks, the Damned, The Fall, U.K Subs, Dillinger Four, Sonic Youth, Richard Hell, Fear, Grinderman, Radio Birdman, X, Mission of Burma.
None of them is pure Punk
- The Addicts are catalogued as Rock with absolutely no information
- The Exploited are more metal than Punk
- The Damned started as a Punk band, they went Goth and ended being a dance band, their last album in 2002 (5 years ago) was described by Rat Scabies (Member of the band) as a mix of Goth and Art Rock
- UK Subs are an exception, but not sure if they release new material since 1996
- Dillinger Four are Pop band with influence of Punk, that's not even remotely close to the roots or esence of Punk
- Sonic Youth are Indie, Alternative, anything but Punk
- Richard Hell is a surviving Punk, but in more than a decade hasn't released anything new
I could check all of them but it's clear that a handfull of barely Punk artists and a couple of survivors don't keep a genre alive.
Yes that could be true, except it is still clearly identifiable and with identity. I mean even some of the old disco artists are still touring, recording and producing.
Identifiable? So if they sound remotely influence by Punk means Punk is alive, please even the hardcore Punk fans admit the genre is dead and live remembering the Summer of 77.
Disco sold millions daily, today their sales are minimum and lets say 90% are old records bought by nostalgic fans.
Yes and the part you failed to include was by you. I was giving my background information and experience to show that I'm not just pulling sh*t out of my ass as part of the evidence you asked for. In fact here's the exact quote between you and I:
And I don't care for the background of any person, here all the members are the same for me, I care about a post no matter who wrote it, why should your case be something special.
If I don't care for your background or ever asked you for it, I care much less what you take from your a$$, that's a problem between you and your proctologist.
A genre is a style. Every genre/style has its own characteristics, and mood.
No, Genre is a deternmined category of music with it's own characteristics and parameters, style is just the way a band or a musician performs the music,
A Prog band can have:
- A vocalist that sings in the style of Axl Rose or Bruce Dickinson (Check Anton Roolaart, is here in the archives)
- A keyboardist that plays in the style of Wakeman, or Tony Banks or Keith Emerson, all styles different, despite all are Prog.
- A guitar player that performs in the style of Jimmy Hendrix
Etc, there's an evident difference between genre and style.
And you don't think Yes was more fashionable within the community than Atomic Rooster? Yes is even fashionable people not in the prog community. Roundabout is constantly on the radio even more so than Owner of a Lonely Heart. Also as I and you mentioned before: PINK FLOYD. A band that has two of the best selling albums of all time.
Do you think that Yes is a fashion? Yes is a band that only performs, hardly could be a fashion, it was popular among a minority community, yes they were larger than bands like gabriel Genesis but this doesn’t make them a fashion.
Being liked by more people than the ones who like Atomic Rooster doesn’t make them a fashion either.
And Yes Roundabout is probably played more than Owner of a Lonely Heart because Prog is designed to last longer than POP.
Award shows barely mention anyone or anything aside from the 5 artists nominated. You say Prog was never a fashion which you follow up by saying it was more popular in the 70s than 80s and 90s.
Yes Prog was more popular among the limited Prog community of the 70's that's true, that doesn't make the genre a fashion, the fashions of the moments were massive like Punk, Disco or Pop.
You also have mentioned that thousands of bands send in material for inclusion on the boards. If prog isn't a fashion and does not sell well why would a band send in material to a prog site if they were looking to make money? Wouldn't that mean they would become less popular and make less money?
Playing a determined genre doesn't imply being a fashion, fashion has attached other characteristics that we mentioned previously, a fashion implies a way of living, a clothing, piercing, tatoos, etc, most genres have it, some don't.
You could identify most Punks in the 70's or a Disco fan, but the Prog fan could be anybody, there was no external distinctive sign to call it a fashion, you may say it's absurd, but that's part of the music today.
And magazines dedicate pages to trashing Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and its all people talk about but that doesn't mean they're not a fashion.
Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!
They criticize, Britney, Paris Hilton or Loghan because a magazine with their faces sell millions (A magazine with the face of Greg lake won't sell too much, less with the face of Steve Hackett because he's hardly known outside the Prog community).
Prog was mostly ignored and criticized by a few critics because it was never profitable for them because their target auduiience worried about the latest fashion in music and never cared for Prog.
The same magazine that criticizes Paris today, supports their album tomorrow, the critic that attacks Prog hardly ever mentions it
Well a lot of genres are about the music. And only superficial assholes really care how you look. Superficial assholes plague all genres.
Punk, Metal, Disco, had their own paraphernalia and fashion attached and this doesn't make Metalheads superficial a$$holes just because they feel comfortable dressing how they want.
So if the bands wish to be a fashion and make a profit they go to a prog site for inclusion to do so even though you been saying this whole time that prog is not a fashion?
What can I say? No matter how much I talk you will always say that every genre is a fashion because you say it.
This bands want to be included in Prog Archives because this site is respected by the prog Community, this doesn’t make them a fashion.
They want to be recognized….Yes
They want to sell their albums….Yes
But they don’t want to be a simple fashion today and forgotten tomorrow, their main expectation (At least most of the prog bands) is in the music.
I have no doubt that progmetal has grown out of proportion and that there are a good amount of bands that aren't really related that are included.
That's the only Prog Metal bands that I mentioned, the ones that without beiong Prog, want to be considered Prog Metal just because they have a keyboard and Prog Metal is selling well..
However, I mentioned groups that did/do not wish to be or try to be prog that used keyboards to address you saying that "every alternative and metal band with a keyboard wishes for inclusion on progarchives".
That's a pleonasm, only a metaphoric figure of speech.
You have not addressed my post, only given your opinion on progmetal's proportionis getting out of hand on this website.
Not on this website, we have a capable team that cares about whioch bands are added.
Rock and Roll (stray cats, Brian Setzer, Chris Isaak, Jerry Lee Lewis...)
Surf rock (Dick Dales, The Ventures, Los Straightjackets, The Sir Finks...)
Alt-rock (Wolf Parade, Radiohead, Doris Henson...)
Psychedelic rock (Acid Mothers Temple, Dungen, Ghost...)
blues rock (Allman Brothers Band, Buddy Guy, Jimmie Vaughan, Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones...)
garage rock (The Mooney Suzuki, The Fleshtones, The Mummies...)
a capella (Da Vinci's Notebook, The Bobs, The Nylons, Rockapella...)
folk rock (Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Fairport Convention, Hot Tuna...)
pop rock/teen pop (Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Hanson, Paul McCartney...)
country rock (Eagles, Alabama, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Emmylou Harris, Levon Helm...)
rockabilly (Sonny Burgess, Sleepy LaBeef, Reverend Horton Heat...)
singer/songwriter (Van Morrison, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez...)
Do you take this list seriously?
- Country and Blues are independent genres from Rock, we're talking about Rock not other timeless genres.
- Singer Songwriter is only a description, there can be Prog, Rock, Pop and even Folk Singer Songwriters, it's hardly a genre.
| Singer-songwriter is a term that refers to performers who write, compose, and sing their own material including lyrics, melodies, often providing the sole accompaniment to an entire composition or song. This form of artistic expression is very common among performers that are less well-known than pop artists. Some of these artists depend on word of mouth and extensive touring to garner a fan base and commonly appear at house concerts, coffee houses, folk clubs, and festivals. |
- A Capella is merely a style of singing without music, there can be A Cappella everywhere, but mostly in Gospel music which is not a Rock Genre.
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Contemporary a cappella includes many vocal bands who add vocal percussion or beatboxing to create a pop/rock sound, in some cases very similar to bands with instruments. One such group is Rockapella, a preeminent example of contemporary A Cappella. There also remains a strong a cappella presence within Christian music, as some denominations do not allow instruments to be used during services.
Arrangements of popular music for small a cappella ensembles typically include one voice singing the lead melody, one singing a rhythmic bass line, and the remaining voices contributing chordal or polyphonic accompaniment.
A cappella can also describe the practice of using just the vocal track(s) from a multitrack, instrumental recording to be remixed or put onto vinyl records for DJs. Artists sometimes release the vocal tracks of their popular songs so that fans can remix them. One such example is the a cappella release of Jay-Z's Black Album, which Danger Mouse mixed with the Beatles' White Album to create The Grey Album.
Increased interest in modern a cappella (particularly collegiate a cappella) can be seen in the growth of awards such as the Contemporary A Cappella Recording Awards (overseen by the Contemporary A Cappella Society) and competitions such as the International Championship of Collegiate A Cappella for college groups and the Harmony Sweepstakes for all groups. |
- Folk Rock is just a blending of two genres as Folk Prog, in that case Folk Rock is a sub-genre of Folk and simultaneously a sub-genre of Rock.
- Garage Rock has barely survived with a handful of representatives but according to all sources, died in 1970, there have been temporary revivals but nothing else.
| Garage rock is a raw form of rock and roll that was first popular in the United States and Canada from about 1963 to 1967. During the 1960s, it was not recognized as a separate music genre and had no specific name. In the early 1970s, some rock critics retroactively labelled it as punk rock. However, the music style was later referred to as garage rock or '60s Punk to avoid confusion with the music of late-1970s punk rock bands such as the SeX Pistols and The Clash. |
- Pop is simply an acronynm for popular music and it's an individual genre indepenant from Rock, with it's own characteristiocs, like simple structure (ABBA mostly), short leght of songs, catchy lyrivcs, etc.
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Pop is contemporary music and a common type of popular music (distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music]). The term popular music does not refer specifically to a single genre or sound, and its meaning is different depending on the time and place. Within popular music, "pop music" is often distinguished from other subgenres by stylistic traits such as a danceable rhythm or beat, simple melodies and a repeating structure. Pop song lyrics are often emotional, commonly relating to love, loss, emotion, or dancing. This often differs from rock, where political themes are more common.
Pop music may include elements of rock, hip hop, reggae, dance, R&B, jazz, electronic, and sometimes folk music and various other styles. For example, in the 1920s–50s pop music drew influence mainly from jazz, beginning in the 1950s from rock and R&B, and since the 1980s, from hip hop. The broad appeal of pop music is seen to distinguish it from more specific types of popular music, and pop music performers and recordings are among the best-selling and most widely known in many regions of the world.
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- Surf Rock was barely a genre, it’s a style a fashion mostly of the 60’s nothing more.
Where are the real popular Rock related genres like Punk, New Wave or Disco?
BTW: Do you believe it's serious to catalogue The Ventures as a real Rock band?
Please, they made most of their carrer based in covers of twist, country, pop, spy music, psychedelic, swamp, garage, TV themes, disco, reggae, soft rock and Latin music.
That's like saying Paul Mauriat and Ray Conniff are Rock artists
Well I figured since I had already mentioned several artists in those genres (in my posts) that still work today I didn't need to include a list of people from those genres that are so clearly alive. Also they are rock sub-genres like prog, not moods, but are not exclusive from moods of the performers, listeners or sounds. Anyways if you so desire I've included some examples of people in each genre that work or still work.
Most of the ones you mention are not related with Rock, but even in that case, a handfull of artists don't make a genre alive and growing.
You know how to discover if a genre is alive and growing?
Check the next post for space reasons
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 14 2007 at 22:12
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 21:31 |
This is what you see when a genre is alive and growing, this bands have been added to Prog Archives only since the last July 18 2007:
And I'm leaving many bands without being copied because I'm tiresd to add individual listings.
So, when you get similar lists, you can affirm a genre is alive and growing
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 14 2007 at 21:34
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Dean
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 21:54 |
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^ sorry to interrupt guys, but Punk is very much alive, just not at a commercial level. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in the UK in every school there will be two or three groups of 12 year old kids who get together and thrash out Punk songs in their dad's garage. Obviously as they get older and learn to play more than 4 chords their music gets more sophisticated and diverse, but they all seem to start as Punk.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 22:00 |
darqdean wrote:
^ sorry to interrupt guys, but Punk is very much alive, just not at a commercial level. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in the UK in every school there will be two or three groups of 12 year old kids who get together and thrash out Punk songs in their dad's garage. Obviously as they get older and learn to play more than 4 chords their music gets more sophisticated and diverse, but they all seem to start as Punk. |
Yes Darq, but I believe we are talking about proffesional bands not kids learning.
Some maybe start playing Rock Around the Clock, but that doesn't mean Bill Halley & The Comets music is alive today.
Iván
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Dean
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 22:25 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
darqdean wrote:
^ sorry to interrupt guys, but Punk is very much alive, just not at a commercial level. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in the UK in every school there will be two or three groups of 12 year old kids who get together and thrash out Punk songs in their dad's garage. Obviously as they get older and learn to play more than 4 chords their music gets more sophisticated and diverse, but they all seem to start as Punk. |
Yes Darq, but I believe we are talking about proffesional bands not kids learning.
Some maybe start playing Rock Around the Clock, but that doesn't mean Bill Halley & The Comets music is alive today.
Iván |
I take your point. In our town (~20K people) there are at least 6 Punk bands that gig regularily but even if they were the greatest Punk band that ever walked the earth they would never get signed. Then the same would be true if they were playing Prog - major labels are not signing punk or prog bands, and like it or not, most prog bands are not full-time professionals.
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 22:48 |
darqdean wrote:
^ sorry to interrupt guys, but Punk is very much alive, just not at a commercial level. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in the UK in every school there will be two or three groups of 12 year old kids who get together and thrash out Punk songs in their dad's garage. Obviously as they get older and learn to play more than 4 chords their music gets more sophisticated and diverse, but they all seem to start as Punk. |
I teach guitar to young teens in America, about 80% want to play punk or very similar to punk.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 23:20 |
Darq, Easy Money: i get your pioints, i'm learning guitar (never too old) and found learning Punk is easier than almost any other genre, it's simple and you don't have to be bored repeating the same scales I did whjen learning piano several decades ago.
For a pupil it's very rewarding to play something you actually recognize, no matter how elemental it is, but the question is...How many of those kids really form a Proffesional or at least barely known Punk band?
Most of them emigrate to other genres.
BTW Guys: I'm impressed i didn't believed when I saw almost 100 bands were added in less than 2 months, it's a lot!!!!
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 14 2007 at 23:30
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 14 2007 at 23:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Darq, Easy Money: i get your pioints, i'm learning guitar (never too old) and found learning Punk is easier than almost any other genre, it's simple and you don't have to be bored repeating the same scales I did whjen learning piano several decades ago.
For a pupil it's very rewarding to play something you actually recognize, no matter how elemental it is, but the question is...How many of those kids really form a Proffesional or at least barely known Punk band?
Most of them emigrate to other genres.
BTW Guys: I'm impressed i didn't believed when I saw almost 100 bands were added in less than 2 months, it's a lot!!!!
Iván |
I'm not sure where a lot of the kids I work with will end up, probably a lot will get distracted by career, marriage or some kind of criminal behaviour and never play in a real band. It has been nice to see some of my students move into music that is more creative such as System of a Down, who also write some decent lyrics too. It was also nice to find one of my older students from the early 90s on myspace recently with a band that was kind of punky, but very smart and creative too.
Edited by Easy Money - September 15 2007 at 00:01
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 15 2007 at 10:57 |
Easy Money wrote:
I'm not sure where a lot of the kids I work with will end up, probably a lot will get distracted by career, marriage or some kind of criminal behaviour and never play in a real band. It has been nice to see some of my students move into music that is more creative such as System of a Down, who also write some decent lyrics too. It was also nice to find one of my older students from the early 90s on myspace recently with a band that was kind of punky, but very smart and creative too. |
Believe me Easy Money, sometimes it's a blessing not to know how your pupils ended.
Being Perú a small market of proffessionals, it's hard to see some of my most brillianjt students ending as ambulance chasers in the best of the cases or as cab drivers because there's no room for almost 50,000 lawyers in Lima.
Of course some end in very good positions, but hardly a few if not a handfull remembers their ideals of helping people who need, I don't ask them to work for free but at least to donate a couple hours a week (I do it on a church) to help abandoned mothers to receive something from the fathers of their children, being a Catholic Church I can't give advice about divorce in tjhose serssions because it's not accepted.
Iván
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BroSpence
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:12 |
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Well I was going to reply and keep this argument going, but you keep ignoring good chunks of what I've written and mixing up certain parts with other things so this seems useless. Not to mention I don't really want to spend another hour replying. And I'm sure you feel likewise.
I do however want to point out Darqdean's post about there being tons of punk bands. Its true there are, and many of them do work at local levels and do everything themselves. NO they aren't pros, but that doesn't matter. If a punk band was pro they would be called Toto and not the Sex Pistols. Aside from that its about the music isn't it? Not status.
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Lucent
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BroSpence wrote:
Well it seems so obvious that these genres are still alive and kicking and that prog like all the other genres is a fashion that my no or false replies to your generalizations don't need backing up. I could understand not replying if the entire post was just nos and one word answers, but that was not the case.
Why is it a fashion please? Because you say it?
Your only argument has been Prog is a fashion as ecery ghenre because some people like it.
Rap has actually been on the decline and emo groups and rock bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Hinder, Nickleback, etc are seeing pretty good profits compared to other artists. Reunion acts are also seeing big bucks and some are even talking about recording or already are recording new albums. That being said the major labels as a whole are having big money problems and independent labels seem to be able to sign and release better artists, and shift their marketing much easier than the 3 mega labels can.
EMO and Rap are much younger than Prog, I don't know about the other bands you mention, their sales, popularity, etc.
Reunion concerts are always profitable, that means nothing, if ABBA who are as dead as Adam and Eve made a reunion tour, they would gather thousands of persons buying tickets and full stadiums, that doesn't mean they are alive, if they ever make a gig and start to release new material again I would believe they are alive, otherwise they are dead band
Well, there is the Addicts, the Exploited, the Buzzcocks, the Damned, The Fall, U.K Subs, Dillinger Four, Sonic Youth, Richard Hell, Fear, Grinderman, Radio Birdman, X, Mission of Burma.
None of them is pure Punk
- The Addicts are catalogued as Rock with absolutely no information
- The Exploited are more metal than Punk
- The Damned started as a Punk band, they went Goth and ended being a dance band, their last album in 2002 (5 years ago) was described by Rat Scabies (Member of the band) as a mix of Goth and Art Rock
- UK Subs are an exception, but not sure if they release new material since 1996
- Dillinger Four are Pop band with influence of Punk, that's not even remotely close to the roots or esence of Punk
- Sonic Youth are Indie, Alternative, anything but Punk
- Richard Hell is a surviving Punk, but in more than a decade hasn't released anything new
I could check all of them but it's clear that a handfull of barely Punk artists and a couple of survivors don't keep a genre alive.
Yes that could be true, except it is still clearly identifiable and with identity. I mean even some of the old disco artists are still touring, recording and producing.
Identifiable? So if they sound remotely influence by Punk means Punk is alive, please even the hardcore Punk fans admit the genre is dead and live remembering the Summer of 77.
Disco sold millions daily, today their sales are minimum and lets say 90% are old records bought by nostalgic fans.
Yes and the part you failed to include was by you. I was giving my background information and experience to show that I'm not just pulling sh*t out of my ass as part of the evidence you asked for. In fact here's the exact quote between you and I:
And I don't care for the background of any person, here all the members are the same for me, I care about a post no matter who wrote it, why should your case be something special.
If I don't care for your background or ever asked you for it, I care much less what you take from your a$$, that's a problem between you and your proctologist.
A genre is a style. Every genre/style has its own characteristics, and mood.
No, Genre is a deternmined category of music with it's own characteristics and parameters, style is just the way a band or a musician performs the music,
A Prog band can have:
- A vocalist that sings in the style of Axl Rose or Bruce Dickinson (Check Anton Roolaart, is here in the archives)
- A keyboardist that plays in the style of Wakeman, or Tony Banks or Keith Emerson, all styles different, despite all are Prog.
- A guitar player that performs in the style of Jimmy Hendrix
Etc, there's an evident difference between genre and style.
And you don't think Yes was more fashionable within the community than Atomic Rooster? Yes is even fashionable people not in the prog community. Roundabout is constantly on the radio even more so than Owner of a Lonely Heart. Also as I and you mentioned before: PINK FLOYD. A band that has two of the best selling albums of all time.
Do you think that Yes is a fashion? Yes is a band that only performs, hardly could be a fashion, it was popular among a minority community, yes they were larger than bands like gabriel Genesis but this doesn’t make them a fashion.
Being liked by more people than the ones who like Atomic Rooster doesn’t make them a fashion either.
And Yes Roundabout is probably played more than Owner of a Lonely Heart because Prog is designed to last longer than POP.
Award shows barely mention anyone or anything aside from the 5 artists nominated. You say Prog was never a fashion which you follow up by saying it was more popular in the 70s than 80s and 90s.
Yes Prog was more popular among the limited Prog community of the 70's that's true, that doesn't make the genre a fashion, the fashions of the moments were massive like Punk, Disco or Pop.
You also have mentioned that thousands of bands send in material for inclusion on the boards. If prog isn't a fashion and does not sell well why would a band send in material to a prog site if they were looking to make money? Wouldn't that mean they would become less popular and make less money?
Playing a determined genre doesn't imply being a fashion, fashion has attached other characteristics that we mentioned previously, a fashion implies a way of living, a clothing, piercing, tatoos, etc, most genres have it, some don't.
You could identify most Punks in the 70's or a Disco fan, but the Prog fan could be anybody, there was no external distinctive sign to call it a fashion, you may say it's absurd, but that's part of the music today.
And magazines dedicate pages to trashing Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and its all people talk about but that doesn't mean they're not a fashion.
Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!
They criticize, Britney, Paris Hilton or Loghan because a magazine with their faces sell millions (A magazine with the face of Greg lake won't sell too much, less with the face of Steve Hackett because he's hardly known outside the Prog community).
Prog was mostly ignored and criticized by a few critics because it was never profitable for them because their target auduiience worried about the latest fashion in music and never cared for Prog.
The same magazine that criticizes Paris today, supports their album tomorrow, the critic that attacks Prog hardly ever mentions it
Well a lot of genres are about the music. And only superficial assholes really care how you look. Superficial assholes plague all genres.
Punk, Metal, Disco, had their own paraphernalia and fashion attached and this doesn't make Metalheads superficial a$$holes just because they feel comfortable dressing how they want.
So if the bands wish to be a fashion and make a profit they go to a prog site for inclusion to do so even though you been saying this whole time that prog is not a fashion?
What can I say? No matter how much I talk you will always say that every genre is a fashion because you say it.
This bands want to be included in Prog Archives because this site is respected by the prog Community, this doesn’t make them a fashion.
They want to be recognized….Yes
They want to sell their albums….Yes
But they don’t want to be a simple fashion today and forgotten tomorrow, their main expectation (At least most of the prog bands) is in the music.
I have no doubt that progmetal has grown out of proportion and that there are a good amount of bands that aren't really related that are included.
That's the only Prog Metal bands that I mentioned, the ones that without beiong Prog, want to be considered Prog Metal just because they have a keyboard and Prog Metal is selling well..
However, I mentioned groups that did/do not wish to be or try to be prog that used keyboards to address you saying that "every alternative and metal band with a keyboard wishes for inclusion on progarchives".
That's a pleonasm, only a metaphoric figure of speech.
You have not addressed my post, only given your opinion on progmetal's proportionis getting out of hand on this website.
Not on this website, we have a capable team that cares about whioch bands are added.
Rock and Roll (stray cats, Brian Setzer, Chris Isaak, Jerry Lee Lewis...)
Surf rock (Dick Dales, The Ventures, Los Straightjackets, The Sir Finks...)
Alt-rock (Wolf Parade, Radiohead, Doris Henson...)
Psychedelic rock (Acid Mothers Temple, Dungen, Ghost...)
blues rock (Allman Brothers Band, Buddy Guy, Jimmie Vaughan, Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones...)
garage rock (The Mooney Suzuki, The Fleshtones, The Mummies...)
a capella (Da Vinci's Notebook, The Bobs, The Nylons, Rockapella...)
folk rock (Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Fairport Convention, Hot Tuna...)
pop rock/teen pop (Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Hanson, Paul McCartney...)
country rock (Eagles, Alabama, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Emmylou Harris, Levon Helm...)
rockabilly (Sonny Burgess, Sleepy LaBeef, Reverend Horton Heat...)
singer/songwriter (Van Morrison, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez...)
Do you take this list seriously?
- Country and Blues are independent genres from Rock, we're talking about Rock not other timeless genres.
- Singer Songwriter is only a description, there can be Prog, Rock, Pop and even Folk Singer Songwriters, it's hardly a genre.
| Singer-songwriter is a term that refers to performers who write, compose, and sing their own material including lyrics, melodies, often providing the sole accompaniment to an entire composition or song. This form of artistic expression is very common among performers that are less well-known than pop artists. Some of these artists depend on word of mouth and extensive touring to garner a fan base and commonly appear at house concerts, coffee houses, folk clubs, and festivals. |
- A Capella is merely a style of singing without music, there can be A Cappella everywhere, but mostly in Gospel music which is not a Rock Genre.
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Contemporary a cappella includes many vocal bands who add vocal percussion or beatboxing to create a pop/rock sound, in some cases very similar to bands with instruments. One such group is Rockapella, a preeminent example of contemporary A Cappella. There also remains a strong a cappella presence within Christian music, as some denominations do not allow instruments to be used during services.
Arrangements of popular music for small a cappella ensembles typically include one voice singing the lead melody, one singing a rhythmic bass line, and the remaining voices contributing chordal or polyphonic accompaniment.
A cappella can also describe the practice of using just the vocal track(s) from a multitrack, instrumental recording to be remixed or put onto vinyl records for DJs. Artists sometimes release the vocal tracks of their popular songs so that fans can remix them. One such example is the a cappella release of Jay-Z's Black Album, which Danger Mouse mixed with the Beatles' White Album to create The Grey Album.
Increased interest in modern a cappella (particularly collegiate a cappella) can be seen in the growth of awards such as the Contemporary A Cappella Recording Awards (overseen by the Contemporary A Cappella Society) and competitions such as the International Championship of Collegiate A Cappella for college groups and the Harmony Sweepstakes for all groups. |
- Folk Rock is just a blending of two genres as Folk Prog, in that case Folk Rock is a sub-genre of Folk and simultaneously a sub-genre of Rock.
- Garage Rock has barely survived with a handful of representatives but according to all sources, died in 1970, there have been temporary revivals but nothing else.
| Garage rock is a raw form of rock and roll that was first popular in the United States and Canada from about 1963 to 1967. During the 1960s, it was not recognized as a separate music genre and had no specific name. In the early 1970s, some rock critics retroactively labelled it as punk rock. However, the music style was later referred to as garage rock or '60s Punk to avoid confusion with the music of late-1970s punk rock bands such as the SeX Pistols and The Clash. |
- Pop is simply an acronynm for popular music and it's an individual genre indepenant from Rock, with it's own characteristiocs, like simple structure (ABBA mostly), short leght of songs, catchy lyrivcs, etc.
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Pop is contemporary music and a common type of popular music (distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music]). The term popular music does not refer specifically to a single genre or sound, and its meaning is different depending on the time and place. Within popular music, "pop music" is often distinguished from other subgenres by stylistic traits such as a danceable rhythm or beat, simple melodies and a repeating structure. Pop song lyrics are often emotional, commonly relating to love, loss, emotion, or dancing. This often differs from rock, where political themes are more common.
Pop music may include elements of rock, hip hop, reggae, dance, R&B, jazz, electronic, and sometimes folk music and various other styles. For example, in the 1920s–50s pop music drew influence mainly from jazz, beginning in the 1950s from rock and R&B, and since the 1980s, from hip hop. The broad appeal of pop music is seen to distinguish it from more specific types of popular music, and pop music performers and recordings are among the best-selling and most widely known in many regions of the world.
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- Surf Rock was barely a genre, it’s a style a fashion mostly of the 60’s nothing more.
Where are the real popular Rock related genres like Punk, New Wave or Disco?
BTW: Do you believe it's serious to catalogue The Ventures as a real Rock band?
Please, they made most of their carrer based in covers of twist, country, pop, spy music, psychedelic, swamp, garage, TV themes, disco, reggae, soft rock and Latin music.
That's like saying Paul Mauriat and Ray Conniff are Rock artists
Well I figured since I had already mentioned several artists in those genres (in my posts) that still work today I didn't need to include a list of people from those genres that are so clearly alive. Also they are rock sub-genres like prog, not moods, but are not exclusive from moods of the performers, listeners or sounds. Anyways if you so desire I've included some examples of people in each genre that work or still work.
Most of the ones you mention are not related with Rock, but even in that case, a handfull of artists don't make a genre alive and growing.
You know how to discover if a genre is alive and growing?
Check the next post for space reasons
Iván
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Tl;dr3 power chords is not a song.
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BroSpence
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 20:38 |
Lucent wrote:
Tl;dr
3 power chords is not a song.
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Although I do not want to start another argument, you're right 3 power chords is not a song. However, 3 power chords can be used to create a song, or whatever other musical format you would like.
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Easy Money
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 21:07 |
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Starship Trooper is 3 power chords G Eb C.
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Leningrad
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 21:10 |
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That was seriously the biggest collective 'tl;dr' ever.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 21:39 |
Lucent wrote:
Tl;dr
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Get used too pal:
Here we come debate and discuss, that's the reason why a DISCUSSION FORUM exists.
Welcome BTW.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 18 2007 at 21:44
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Bryan
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 21:57 |
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I just wanted to point out how utterly absurd the idea that "punk is dead" is. I live in a small to mid sized North American city with a surprisingly decent local scene, but still in no way shape or form one that is remarkable or special. There are about 6 or 7 local punk bands who all consist of people roughly my age and regularily play shows together (some have even recorded in studios and made CDs to sell at these shows), then on top of that there's a slightly bigger Crust Punk scene (featuring a couple of bands, Iskra and Leper, who are actually known throughout the international crust scene and are constantly touring, as are many of the other lesser known ones) and an equally large hardcore scene, plus there's also another group of punk bands all consisting of guys who are a bit older (most of them have families and kids) and have been playing punk since they were teenagers. Do you know how many prog bands there are in Victoria right now? None. And don't try to use the argument that these guys are unserious about their music... the guitarist from the aforementioned band Iskra has a masters degree in classical composition, and a lot of these guys play with a level of precision and at times even technicality that I think a lot of you would be pretty surprised with.
As for the notion that punk is dead because there are no "professional" bands out there... come on, are you really following the punk scene at all in an effort to even distinguish what's happening with it? Do you think some rabid punk fan who views that genre in the way that we view prog would have ever heard of Spock's Beard or Echolyn or whatever modern prog bands we're all listening to? Granted real punk has definitely fallen completely off the mainstream radar, but if there's enough of a scene for the guys I've met from these bands to be touring and releasing music (often completely by themselves, as pertaining to punk's DIY asthetic), not to mention bringing tons of great local punk bands from other cities over to ours for shows on a fairly regular basis, then obviously calling the genre "dead" is ridiculous. Less popular maybe, but who ever said that was a bad thing?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: September 18 2007 at 22:29 |
Bryan I insist, pure Punk as it was born is dead, the lifestyle, the ideals, the Punk philosophy as it started is dead since 1979 more or less
as a fact I usually check Punk, Pop and other genres sites and all the new bands they mention have very little in common with the original Punk.
As a fact we also have a lot of local bands playing Beatles or Elvis music, even Punk, but that doesn't mean the genres are alive and healthy, iit's only reminiscences fronm the past.
At least hat's my opinion and te opinion of Punk band members (In my case local) with whom I talked, they even admit that the actual bands are anything but not Punk.
Even the punk sites talk in past tence:
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But most of all, punk's legacy lies in its introduction of self employment and activism. It illustrated that anyone can do it themself, without reliance on the commercial media or the luxury of having financial abundance. Against the backdrop of mass consumer conformity, the punk rock movement made a statement of individuality that was heard worldwide.
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Other sites talk about Skinheads music, Pop Punk, etc, but pure punk no longer exists at least not commercially.
Iván
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Don't knock the (punk) rock!
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