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Greg W

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Posted: September 06 2007 at 15:38

Oh, I lleft one thing out. Punk is also about fashion. We can't forget that.

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Posted: September 07 2007 at 03:50

Prog is also about fashion (see previous post where I mangle a Rush quote).

"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Seyo

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Posted: September 07 2007 at 04:05

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

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Posted: September 07 2007 at 04:07

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Someone killed Nancy, don't think it was Sid though!

"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

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Posted: September 07 2007 at 14:21

A B Negative wrote:

Prog is also about fashion (see previous post where I mangle a Rush quote).

I strongly disagree with the atatement that Prog is a fashion for several reasons:

Fashions last little, Prog is probably the longer lasting Rock Genre in history, most of the early movements were dead by the 80's except Rhythm & Blues, Prog is lasting 4 decades and growing. You don't see a 40 years guy listening Grease (Theyp probably hide their first copy in embarrassment), but you find a lot of 50 years guys buying The Lamb or Relayer because they lost or broke their third copy of the album.
Fashions tend to sell a lot and are extremely profitable, we know that's not the case of Prog.
Normally fashions are identified with a determined age group with clothes that match to express their identity, Prog has fans from all ages and there's never been a particular style or fashion identified with Prog, at the beginning they used Hippie clothing because this movement refused to die, iut then there's not a particular or distinctive external sign for a Progger, just look at the bands, they dress as they want, and the fans go from school kids wearing what they want to Proffesionals wearing suits and hard working employees wearing uniforms.
Fashion genres sell a lot in the first months and then decrease to almost 0 in an average lapse of six moths, if you check the Prog market behaviour is exactly the opposite, they don't sell particulary better in the first months than in the next 5 or 10 years. Genesis played their magnum opus in half empthy theaters, but they achieved their first Gold Certificate in 1991 or 1992 (not sure), this means they kept selling an average during 16 years (If not they wouldn't have been considered by the RIAA), Jethro Tull until a few years ago had a media audience of 15,000 fans per show, not great but enough to live, they were never N° 1 in the charts (Except when they were wrongly classified as Metal by the Grammy Awards) neither ever made a poor show, they kept the same average since 1969 to 2003 at least.,
Fashion genres have a language, look at Psyche and check any Austin Powers movie, I know it's a joke, but the liguistic quotes are very accurate, or Rap and the violent language, Punk and their revolutionary hate discourse, etc. Yo can't tell a Proghead by his way of speaking, normally is the average Joe, I have friends who still in their 40's live to surf, stereotypical nerds, Middle Class Proffesional and white collar employes as well as factory workers, all with their distinctive language according to other considerations.

So Prog is anything except a fashion.

My 2 cents.

Iván

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Posted: September 08 2007 at 00:01

darren wrote:

I know my biggest disappointment in this forum is that I thought prog fans would be more open minded about all forms of music. Some seem to think that if you like any nonprog rock that it somehow diminishes your intellect.

schizoid_man77 wrote:

I respect all music (except gangsta rap), but punk is low on my standards, cause after you've heard one song, you have heard all of punk! Like dean said, It's very narrow, with three chord verse chorus verse songs and twenty nine minuete long albums. Dont deny with that sentence I summed up 75% of punk.

... that is right if you take a superficail view.

Superficial is one word you could say about that...

emdiar wrote:

Sorry, but I can't agree that punk is all about attitude and image . Sure, the pop punk that filled the charts (Jilted John, the Buzzcocks etc.) were pretty much image based, but people, I get the impression that your knowledge of the punk movement is fairly slim. It's no greater than a punk who, having heard his dad's copy of DSOTM, thinks he knows enough about prog to hold an opinion. Real Punk is perhaps 10% "attitude and image" and 90% ideology. The real Punks I know are serious animal rights activists, or squat empty properties that have been bought by immoral capitalists as investments and deliberately kept empty for years while people go homeless, or take to the streets to fight fascists at neo-nazi rallies, supporting persecuted social groups such as Gays or Jews. Roger Waters may have put on a "the Wall" show in Berlin a year after the event, but Punks were railing against it with direct action long before. Really, I don't know how many punks you know, but when I think "Punk", the last thing on my mind is an image conscious Greenday fan with a skateboard under his arm.

The beginning of your post is totally true and represents exactly what is going on here. However, I am not too fond of the rest of the post where you start talking about the punks you know. The things they do are outstanding, but it doesn't really represent "punk" so to speak. Sure they are rebelling against certain things and fighting for what they believe, but that is more in tune with what the hippies and "youth movement" of the 60s were representative of.

Punks in the traditional sense consisted greatly of nihilism. They didn't give a sh*t about you, themselves, their friends, their parents, their bosses, etc. Well actually that was more of the Sex Pistols school.

Your friends might be of the Joe Strummer school. He went out and investigated and spoke out against corrupt politicians (Reagan for instance), and things of that nature.

Plenty of the original bands were politically and socially based, but it was mostly the fact they didn't give a damn that made them who they are.

Punk godfather Iggy Pop made a point back in the day that he made his music because he "didn't give a damn about all the love and peace and sh*t".

Anyways I would say punk is about 50/50 ideology and attitude/image. I don't think they are separate either, both go hand in hand. Your friends are activists rather than punks which have been around for a long time, where as punks (when speaking of those in relation to the music genre) have not been around nearly as long.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

A B Negative wrote:

Prog is also about fashion (see previous post where I mangle a Rush quote).

I strongly disagree with the atatement that Prog is a fashion for several reasons:

Fashions last little, Prog is probably the longer lasting Rock Genre in history, most of the early movements were dead by the 80's except Rhythm & Blues, Prog is lasting 4 decades and growing. You don't see a 40 years guy listening Grease (Theyp probably hide their first copy in embarrassment), but you find a lot of 50 years guys buying The Lamb or Relayer because they lost or broke their third copy of the album.There are plenty of men (not me) that do enjoy Grease, and musicals in their later years of life. Rockabilly, R&B, Blues (father of Rock), Pop Rock, Punk rock, College/Alt/Indie Rock, Metal were all alive and and well during the 80s. Some were fresher than Prog, but others were much older! All musical forms are fashionable. It doesn't really mean they are bad.
Fashions tend to sell a lot and are extremely profitable, we know that's not the case of Prog.See: DREAM THEATER, ASIA, Genesis, Rush
Normally fashions are identified with a determined age group with clothes that match to express their identity, Prog has fans from all ages and there's never been a particular style or fashion identified with Prog, at the beginning they used Hippie clothing because this movement refused to die, iut then there's not a particular or distinctive external sign for a Progger, just look at the bands, they dress as they want, and the fans go from school kids wearing what they want to Proffesionals wearing suits and hard working employees wearing uniforms.That is true of many genres. Also Prog's age group is determined in your own post (almost all ages, just like with any genre). Depending on the band Prog could be marketed to any age, as could Britney Spears, Sex Pistols, Charlie Parker. Fashionable items speak to fashionable people. Whether I prefer prog to all else and dress like a business man or a punk has no relevance to the music being fashionable or not. Prog, like every genre is a fashion.
Fashion genres sell a lot in the first months and then decrease to almost 0 in an average lapse of six moths, if you check the Prog market behaviour is exactly the opposite, they don't sell particulary better in the first months than in the next 5 or 10 years. Genesis played their magnum opus in half empthy theaters, but they achieved their first Gold Certificate in 1991 or 1992 (not sure), this means they kept selling an average during 16 years (If not they wouldn't have been considered by the RIAA), Jethro Tull until a few years ago had a media audience of 15,000 fans per show, not great but enough to live, they were never N° 1 in the charts (Except when they were wrongly classified as Metal by the Grammy Awards) neither ever made a poor show, they kept the same average since 1969 to 2003 at least., Fashion can sell poorly and still be fashion.
Fashion genres have a language, look at Psyche and check any Austin Powers movie, I know it's a joke, but the liguistic quotes are very accurate, or Rap and the violent language, Punk and their revolutionary hate discourse, etc. Yo can't tell a Proghead by his way of speaking, normally is the average Joe, I have friends who still in their 40's live to surf, stereotypical nerds, Middle Class Proffesional and white collar employes as well as factory workers, all with their distinctive language according to other considerations. A Nerd is generally the stereotype of the prog world, at least it has been for several years now. That is all stereotypes though.

So Prog is anything except a fashion.

So Prog is anything except not a fashion.

My 2 cents.

Iván

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Posted: September 08 2007 at 01:17

BroSpence wrote:

There are plenty of men (not me) that do enjoy Grease, and musicals in their later years of life. Rockabilly, R&B, Blues (father of Rock), Pop Rock, Punk rock, College/Alt/Indie Rock, Metal were all alive and and well during the 80s. Some were fresher than Prog, but others were much older! All musical forms are fashionable. It doesn't really mean they are bad.

About Rockabilly, it's more a regional thing, Classic Rock is popular still, but very few bands ascribe to this style, Punk or at least pure Punk, died in a couple of years.

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

I'm not saying or said that fashion is bad, only pointed that IMO Prog was never a Fashion.

See: DREAM THEATER, ASIA, Genesis, Rush

I believe Dream Theater is Prog Metal band, but most of their fans are Metalheads rather than Progheads, and Metal was popular, so they followed the fate of the main genre, but if you haven't noticed, there's a decline in popularity for this band, they lasted less than most Classic Prog bands.

ASIA was never Prog, so that explains the situation.

Genesis only became a fashion when Hackett left and they went POP, in the Gabriel years they were almost a cult band, almost all their career was fornmed in Colleges and universities while other Prog bands were bbefore big audiences, then they became better known but their fate didn't changed, all The Lamb Tour was played in half empty concert halls, they were not even a fashion during ATOTT and W&W, they became a fashion with ATTW3 and only reached the peak of the charts with Invisible touch that is a 100% POP album.

Rush is not a fashion, Rush is one ofvthe bands wioth bigger and faithful fanbase, as Pink Floyd was in their time.

That is true of many genres. Also Prog's age group is determined in your own post (almost all ages, just like with any genre). Depending on the band Prog could be marketed to any age, as could Britney Spears, Sex Pistols, Charlie Parker. Fashionable items speak to fashionable people. Whether I prefer prog to all else and dress like a business man or a punk has no relevance to the music being fashionable or not. Prog, like every genre is a fashion.

Most popular bands are designed to appeal for different ages, you rarely see a 30 years guy listening Britney, or a businessman listening Punk, neither a Proffessional dressing in white suit and black shirt while dancing Stayin' Alive.

Prog has appeal for every age and economic condition and has survived ptrecisely because was never extremely popular or fashionable.

Fashion can sell poorly and still be fashion.

Then it will last even less

A Nerd is generally the stereotype of the prog world, at least it has been for several years now. That is all stereotypes though.

Yes, it's teh stereotype, but you find teens, College and ubniversity students, young adults, people in their 30's, 40's or 50's listening Prog, as well as you find nerds, bussinesmen, surfers, proffessionals, workers, etc listening Prog.

Something almost exclusive of Prog.

So Prog is anything except not a fashion.

Fashion is designed to last a short time, iof not it's not profitable, in order to launch a new product or new fashion, you need the passt one to vansihm, this doesn't happen with Progg, the most attacks we receiove, the healthier we get.

Prog acts contrary to any definition of Fashion

Fashion, by definition, changes constantly. The changes may proceed more rapidly than in most other fields of human activity (language, thought, etc). For some, modern fast-paced changes in fashion embody many of the negative aspects of capitalism: it results in waste and encourages people qua consumers to buy things unnecessarily. Other people, especially young people, enjoy the diversity that changing fashion can apparently provide, seeing the constant change as a way to satisfy their desire to experience "new" and "interesting" things.

As you see, this describes anything but Prog music.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 08 2007 at 01:18

emdiar

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Posted: September 08 2007 at 09:57

I can't agree that prog enjoys more longevity than most genres. 1950s Rock n Roll fans abound to this day, and have been around since long before Prog. Elvis still sells in huge quantities. Grease is still massively popular here in the Netherlands.

I see no truth in the statement that prog "is probably the longest lasting genre in rock history." Ever been to a Beatles fan bash? The best selling band in history have a good 6 or 7 years on prog, and their sales didn't dip massively in the intervening years like prog's did.

Edited by emdiar - September 08 2007 at 09:58

Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.

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Posted: September 08 2007 at 14:49

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Well said, Seyo! Clap

It's like when, talking about literature, they say, for instance, that Romanticism was a reaction against the Enlightenment... and then you get people like Goethe that "belong" to both movements.

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Posted: September 08 2007 at 15:07

emdiar wrote:

I can't agree that prog enjoys more longevity than most genres. 1950s Rock n Roll fans abound to this day, and have been around since long before Prog. Elvis still sells in huge quantities. Grease is still massively popular here in the Netherlands.

Classic Rock may still be alive, but that's ROCK, the main genre, it's a generic term and the mother of all genres, we are all covered by that unbrella called ROCK & ROLL.

Elvis is popular, but sadly Elvis is dead, there are not more artists trying to play that genre, there's a theory that pure Rock is dead since Rap and Hip Hop appeared, and I partially agree, there's no more artists trying to play this style of the 50's since the 70's.

People may buy Grease albums, but DISCO IS DEAD since 1984 more or less, there are no new artists that play that genre, all what people buy are old albums from bands that once released that music and don't exist anymore in most cases

If any Disco band will reunite today, it would be a complete faillure, nobody would buy their albums but there's market for thousand of new Prog bands every year.

Prog is a diffenent case, since 1967 or 68 when it was born there's not a single year in which you didn't had hundreed of Prog releases....today it's even more radical, hundreed of bands send their demos to Prog Archives, Progressive Ears, GEPR or Proggnosis asking for their inclusion every month.

We have labels like Musea, F2 Records and Syn-phonic that release exclusively Prog music.

For God's sake, every Metal band with a keyboard and Alternative band wants to be labeled as Prog.

You can't say a genre is alive if very few or no bands try to play in that genre, Grease was released in 1978, still some fans survive, but who tries to play Disco today?

If you see hundreeds of bands trying to release albums of one genre, only then you can affirm it's alive annd that's the case of Prog.

The Beatles split in the early 70's, people remembers them, but there are no bands trying to play in their style, so this style is also dead.

The Beatles never did Prog, if they did, they would be in a Prog Sub-Genre, but they are in Proto Prog, this means they were only an influence to the genre but not part of it.

I insist, along with Rhythm & Blues that keeps surviving, probably Prog is longest lasting Rock genre.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 08 2007 at 15:11

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Posted: September 08 2007 at 15:21

Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys, Gang of Four, Bad Religion, Offspring, Clash..

Like'em all. Not my favorite genre at all, but I enjoy it nevertheless!

RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!

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Posted: September 09 2007 at 05:58

Punk bands can be good too, for instance Black Flag when they had Dez on 2nd guitar and Chuck Biscuits on drums. Their live performances were incredible and had lots of King Crimson influences too. Fishbone at their peak were one of the best live bands ever.

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Posted: September 11 2007 at 00:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BroSpence wrote:

Again, guide yourself by general rules, the normal mainstream listener (the vast majority) liosten what is fashion in a certain moment, they forget about the album as soon as it ceases to be piopular, POP AND DISCO WERECDESIGNED TO ACT LIKE THIS.

Yes it may be true that they "forget" about an album after it is no longer trendy. Pop and disco were not designed like this, they were MARKETED like this. Just like any genre is marketed. They are designed to sell well, make money and if they run their course then the marketing is focused elsewhere. However, things that are not being marketed like crazy are still fashionable.

About Rockabilly, it's more a regional thing, Classic Rock is popular still, but very few bands ascribe to this style, Punk or at least pure Punk, died in a couple of years.

Something can be regional, but still influential. Country music is played by many people not from the south. Plenty of bands still ascribe to classical rock styling. They usually suck, but that doesn't mean they doesn't ascribe to it. Plenty of bands after 1977 still made 1977 style punk, other evolved into other forms be it post-punk, hardcore, etc.

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

How do you know? Do you work for rockarchives? classicrockarchives? punkarchives? I'm sure plenty of bands send their albums to you guys, but loads of bands send their albums out to loads of places.

I'm not saying or said that fashion is bad, only pointed that IMO Prog was never a Fashion.

Prog was and is a fashion. Just like any other genre, as I said before.

See: DREAM THEATER, ASIA, Genesis, Rush

Prog Metal is still progressive. Also they may not be popular on this site as much as they were, but I assure you more people like them now than two or three years ago. They've become incredibly popular and still sell their fair share of goods.

ASIA was never Prog, so that explains the situation.

Genesis only became a fashion when Hackett left and they went POP, in the Gabriel years they were almost a cult band, almost all their career was fornmed in Colleges and universities while other Prog bands were bbefore big audiences, then they became better known but their fate didn't changed, all The Lamb Tour was played in half empty concert halls, they were not even a fashion during ATOTT and W&W, they became a fashion with ATTW3 and only reached the peak of the charts with Invisible touch that is a 100% POP album.

Still a fashion in Gabriel-years, just not as big a fashion as later years.

Rush is not a fashion, Rush is one ofvthe bands wioth bigger and faithful fanbase, as Pink Floyd was in their time.

Rush is a fashion, as is Pink Floyd (thanks for reminding me of them!). Both are hugely popular. There are thousands of people that own that damn Dark Side shirt, or the Wall (one of the BIGGEST selling albums of all time). Rush plays stadium and amphitheater shows when they tour, and Pink Floyd's success is still obvious. Both bands fit in the "very fashionable" category.

But it does happen, because its a fashion and people want to be fashionable.

Prog has appeal for every age and economic condition and has survived ptrecisely because was never extremely popular or fashionable.

Well that is applicable to almost all genres. Classical is the only style that is truly associated with the upper class. Everything else is POPULAR or folk music. Jazz, Rock, Rap and even Classical and folk are appealing to anyone no matter what their economic status or age is. All have survived as well.

Fashion can sell poorly and still be fashion.

Then it will last even less

Prog hasn't really sold well compared to some other styles. So taking what you said in your reply to me, prog should be dead because it was a poor selling fashion. This is not the case at all.

A Nerd is generally the stereotype of the prog world, at least it has been for several years now. That is all stereotypes though.

Something almost exclusive of Prog.

No not exclusive at all! Thats true of every genre! Hell even Bob Dylan likes rap and he's 65 or so! Students, teens, young and old people alike, all listen to what they like and it usually ranges in style.

So Prog is anything except not a fashion.

Prog acts contrary to any definition of Fashion

No, Fashion is many designs that may or may not last a long or short time. Fashion can be profitable or not. You can be out of fashion, but still have a fashion. The attacks on prog are irrelevant on whether its a fashion or not, it only affects whether it IS or is NOT fashionable to a particular crowd.

Prog can act contrary to fashion or being fashionable, but it still fits perfectly in the defintion and definitions of fashion.

As you see, this describes anything but Prog music.

Yes, Genesis and Rush among others tried following trends to sell well in the 80s. Rush did so in the 90s as well.

Fashion is also defined by these points:

1.	a prevailing custom or style of dress, etiquette, socializing, etc.: the latest fashion in dresses.

2.	conventional usage in dress, manners, etc., esp. of polite society, or conformity to it: the dictates of fashion; to be out of fashion.

3.	manner; way; mode: in a warlike fashion.

4.	the make or form of anything: He liked the fashion of the simple, sturdy furniture.

5.	a kind; sort: All fashions of people make up the world.

–verb (used with object)

8.	to give a particular shape or form to; make: The cavemen fashioned tools from stones.

9.	to accommodate; adjust; adapt: doctrines fashioned to the varying hour.

12.	after or in a fashion, in some manner or other or to some extent; in a makeshift, unskillful, or unsatisfactory way: He's an artist after a fashion.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Classic Rock may still be alive, but that's ROCK, the main genre, it's a generic term and the mother of all genres, we are all covered by that unbrella called ROCK & ROLL.

Classic rock isn't really a genre of Rock its a radio format for playing older rock bands. Rock and Roll however would fit under the "umbrella" as it is a sub-genre of Rock.

No, not true. Chris Isaak is one. Roy Orbison continued making rock and roll until the late 80s. Stray Cats and and Brian Setzer still make rock and roll. Little Richard put out albums in the 80s and 90s and Jerry Lee Lewis still puts out albums. Bo Diddley probably would if he weren't sick at the moment.

Actually disco has been fused into other styles and did not actually die.

If any Disco band will reunite today, it would be a complete faillure, nobody would buy their albums but there's market for thousand of new Prog bands every year.

If the Bee Gees reunited there would be a lot of tickets sold. There was even a Bee Gees night on American Idol. Bands today like the Killers, Modest Mouse, Franz Ferdinand, and many many many more have taken disco beats and mixed it into rock songs (not the first time this has happened). They're albums also happen to sell A LOT. So no I would say a disco reunion wouldn't be so bad off. I have no argument against there being a market for new Prog bands.

There isn't really a year where any genre of music doesn't feature a release. Also more people are able to record and release their material when compared to the last 60 years. So if this were the Klezmer archvies you'd probably still be getting plenty of recordings.

We have labels like Musea, F2 Records and Syn-phonic that release exclusively Prog music.

There are numerous labels that are exclusive to one style or another. In fact some like Verve signed and released albums by rock groups because it was the fashion. Some of those groups were Prog.

For God's sake, every Metal band with a keyboard and Alternative band wants to be labeled as Prog.

No.

You can't say a genre is alive if very few or no bands try to play in that genre, Grease was released in 1978, still some fans survive, but who tries to play Disco today?

Yes you can as being alive means there is some life. If you have a low pulse you are still alive. Grease is still preformed on Broadway. As I said before Disco was mixed into many other styles at the start of the 80s. Modest Mouse, Franz Ferdinand, Metric, Dismemberment Plan, many electronic artists (House, etc) took their fair share from Disco.

If you see hundreeds of bands trying to release albums of one genre, only then you can affirm it's alive annd that's the case of Prog.

Well...yes and no.

The Beatles split in the early 70's, people remembers them, but there are no bands trying to play in their style, so this style is also dead.

So no one plays pop/rock or brit-pop anymore? And I guess that would mean Paul McCartney is dead too, and no one was influenced by the Beatles....

The Beatles never did Prog, if they did, they would be in a Prog Sub-Genre, but they are in Proto Prog, this means they were only an influence to the genre but not part of it.

Proto-prog is kind of a subgenre of Prog, or other way around depending how you like your genres organized. The Beatles were a massive influence on the genre of Prog. That makes it part of it.

I insist, along with Rhythm & Blues that keeps surviving, probably Prog is longest lasting Rock genre.

Insist all you want, that is not true.

Iván

BroSpence

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Posted: September 11 2007 at 01:20

so prog fans in general have evolved passed the need to hate unless they can describe with some theory what they are feeling about the subject , where as punk fans take a hammer to what they don't understand ... know what I`d rather be

But Ivan in the early days of the Neo Prog movement there were some connections to prog you must admit that certain songs by Twelfth Night and The odd Marillion tune had some references more so in their anti establishment sentiment ,Peter Hammill from VDDG may have given a strong nod to certain punk vocal applications before punk even came along ... there's definitely some truth in these facts, in a sense prog created punk which is a spin out when you think about it Confused

Edited by Yorkie X - September 11 2007 at 01:31

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Posted: September 11 2007 at 02:13

You know something Bro Spencer, I wrote a long reply, but your last line

Insist all you want, that is not true.

Relieve me of any will to reply you.

You made a couple of good points, but each time you reply with a simple no or false or that's not true without any supporting argument, you loose any credibility.

Just show me a significative number of PURE Punk and Disco bands and I will believe you, not talking about Dance, Trance or whatever bands that rip a couple of chords or share a couple of elements, I'm talking about PURE bands.

While i could easily give you 50 or maybe even 100 new PURE Prog bands since the 90's.

Until that day I will insist both genres as many others more popular than Prog are dead.

Good luck in your search.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 11 2007 at 02:34

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Posted: September 11 2007 at 04:32

Ghost Rider wrote:

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Well said, Seyo! Clap

It's like when, talking about literature, they say, for instance, that Romanticism was a reaction against the Enlightenment... and then you get people like Goethe that "belong" to both movements.

Yeah, here it is - the missing prog-punk link :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranglers_&_Friends_Live_in_Concert

One should here P. Hammill singing the furious "Tank".

Oh, by the way Robert Fripp and Steve Hillage were also present....

Seyo

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Posted: September 11 2007 at 04:41

I also agree with Ivan that punk is primarily a fashion, a trend, although it includes music too. Unlike prog rock that is primarily a musical style (I am even not certain about the term "genre"?).

Punk was also a counter-culture movement (social, even political to some extent) encompassing many different forms of popular culture, including but not limiting to musical expression.

Much to the similarity with Hippie/Flower Power counter-culture of the decade earlier, which was also a broad fashion/movement, including also the musical as well as other artistic expression.

Classic prog rock of the 1970s formed within the latter as a particular style of rock music, rather than a mere fashion.

...

Progrock105 View Drop Down

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Posted: September 11 2007 at 15:43

Punk is one of those genres that started out tolerable, but rapidly went downhill. I actually like the Clash (although I despise the Sex Pistols), but find modern punk to be incalculably horrible. I find the same thing with Alt-rock and even Country.

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Posted: September 12 2007 at 22:13

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

You know something Bro Spencer, I wrote a long reply, but your last line

Insist all you want, that is not true.

Relieve me of any will to reply you.

You made a couple of good points, but each time you reply with a simple no or false or that's not true without any supporting argument, you loose any credibility.

While i could easily give you 50 or maybe even 100 new PURE Prog bands since the 90's.

Until that day I will insist both genres as many others more popular than Prog are dead.

Good luck in your search.

Iván

It is too bad you spent a lot of time writing a reply and then deleting it because of one line. You say I am guilty of not providing evidence in many parts of my reply, yet you have little to no evidence in your case as well. You have said many times that various genres are dead and that prog is one of the longest lasting in the Rock field, but fail to back it up except by saying many bands send their CDs to progarchives and even non-prog artists wish to be included.

You also need to share your definition of what a "pure" punk band is. Additionally, I never said there were any "pure" disco groups out right now. It is very possible that there could be, but I do not follow that genre closely so I do not know whether there is or is not. I said the genre never died because it split off and influenced many other genres that are still around today. It was even influential to Prog.

For your pleasure here is my evidence for these parts:

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

If you need evidence for this then here it is. I spend a lot of my time well outside of prog rock. In fact this site is about the only place I go when it comes to finding out about progressive rock news, albums, etc. Outside of that I go to tons of local concerts and arts events 90% of which feature non-prog artists. Styles featured include punk, alternative/college rock, pop rock, ska, dance, electronic, folk rock, folk, singer-songwriter, world, hard rock, rock and roll, surf rock, and many many more styles. I also have friends that work at independent radio stations which receive numerous CDs from all different styles of artists such as rap, alternative, folk, pop rock, jazz, prog, post-rock, and so on.

So yes THAT (sending CDs for inclusion, and older genres not being dead) does happen in the world that is not prog-rock.

[quote}I'm not saying or said that fashion is bad, only pointed that IMO Prog was never a Fashion.

Prog was and is a fashion. Just like any other genre, as I said before. [/quote]

Prog is a style of music. It is marketable to many people and at one time was quite popular and well received. Same is true of other genres it all depends on how the product is marketed. Prog is not as fashionable as it once was, but many people still love it, and play it. As you mentioned in one section even metal and alternative bands wish for inclusion. Seems they want to be in on the fashion.

For God's sake, every Metal band with a keyboard and Alternative band wants to be labeled as Prog.

No.

Evidence: That is a huge generalization. There were keyboards in rock before and after the conception of prog. It does not mean a band wishes to be prog because it has a keyboardist. Some alt-rock and metal bans that fit: The Cure, Depeche Mode, Suicide, My Morning Jacket, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom, Elvis Costello and Attractions, Emperor, Sparklehorse, Granddaddy, Flaming Lips, Hot Hot Heat, Wolf Parade, and many more....

If you see hundreeds of bands trying to release albums of one genre, only then you can affirm it's alive annd that's the case of Prog.

Well...yes and no.

Evidence: Yes it is true hundreds of bands release albums in the prog-rock genre, but no because it is not true that a genre is affirmed alive because hundreds of bands are releasing albums in that field. A genre is dead if it is dead. If you have a pulse you are alive, if it is weak you are alive. You are not dead until your heart stops and you are pronounced dead. Just because a genre doesn't gets a ton of releases does not mean it is dead.

I insist, along with Rhythm & Blues that keeps surviving, probably Prog is longest lasting Rock genre.

Insist all you want, that is not true.

evidence: As I said insisting it doesn't make things true. I could insist Elvis is alive, but we all know he is dead (his heart stopped and is disintegrated by now).

Genres older than prog that still have life in them:

Rock and Roll
Surf rock
Alt-rock
Psychedelic rock
blues rock
garage rock
a capella
folk rock
pop rock/teen pop
country rock
rockabilly
singer/songwriter

and those are just in the rock "umbrella" before prog that are still around. There are more post-prog conception, and in the R&B genre.

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Posted: September 12 2007 at 22:21

Ghost Rider wrote:

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Well said, Seyo! Clap

It's like when, talking about literature, they say, for instance, that Romanticism was a reaction against the Enlightenment... and then you get people like Goethe that "belong" to both movements.

That's just what comes to MY mind when I think about punk rock Wink

I have a soft spot for the more intelligent punks, as well as the Ramones and Sex Pistols (talk all you want, the Pistols weren't smart punks. They were the KISS of punk, but boy were they good). The Clash (the only band that matters), Crass, Husker Du, Talking Heads, and my personal favorite, the Dead Kennedys, which is like Vonnegut set to distorted guitars. Smart music is smart music, and I'm fortunate that I grew up in the emptiness of post-grunge in that I can like whatever I want without worrying about loyalty to one genre.