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Jimbo View Drop Down
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Points: 2818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2007 at 15:15
I find post-punk much more interesting than the original movement. Bands like Wire, Television, The Birthday Party etc. were all superb, although it's not something I listen to too often.

I agree with the original post though, there's certainly too much closed-mindedness and prejudice towards certain genres around here. Prog and punk are not that far away from each other, most RIO/Avant-garde bands are aesthetically closer to experimental post-punk than to any other prog sub-genre imo, but I suppose this is something that most people fail to grasp. I'd like to think that bands such as Mr. Bungle, Hella, Massacre etc. wouldn't have existed without punk.



Edited by Jimbo - September 04 2007 at 15:16
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Points: 6890 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2007 at 22:17
Jimbo, I do understand in some weird kind of way that prog and punk are actually very simalar BECAUSE they are opposites!
 
Long songs/short songs
 
Complex music/ very simple music
 
Spacey far minded lyrics/ straight forward lyrics
 
The only thing they have in common is that they are both dogged by the media and are now underground. But I simply cannot get into the sloppy playing and "lets have sex all the time" lyrics. I respect it, but you will find me listening to nirvana before the sex pistols.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 01:01
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by A B Negative A B Negative wrote:

Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

I have Television's Marquee Moon and I like it a lot. Is there anything more by Television worth getting?
 
Although I haven't heard it, live album The Blow Up is highly rated.
The follow-up to Marquee Moon was Adventure - a bit more polished, but somehow not as vibrant.
Agree -- sophomore effort Adventure was not nearly as memorable.
 
Tom Verlaine's self-titled solo debut was better, and quiteTelevision-esque. (Some of the same musicians.) Among others, the longest track Breakin' In My Heart is essential listening for the Television fan. Big%20smile (Similar to the epic Marquee Moon.)
 
 
Television reformed briefly in the 90s, BTW (I saw the concert -- absolutely TERRIFFIC!), and this worthy album resulted:
 
Thumbs%20Up
 
Finally, any true fan of Verlaine and Television MUST have this one (easily my preferred of his solo works). None other than a certain Mr. Peter Gabriel cites it as one of his favourite albums:
 
The title is "Flash Light" -- a KILLER disc! Cool
 
 


Edited by Peter - September 05 2007 at 01:02
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 01:55
It's funny when you read Punk is malignized in a Prog place, please take your time and visit any Punk site, they waste pages of pages not in open forums but in their main sites insulting Prog and boasting about how they destroyed the dinosaurs.
 
Here once in a while a read a lot of people talking about how much they like Punk, others even talking about Prog Punk, but you won't ever see that in a Punk site, there you will just read insults, and that's OK for us and if they are happy, it's OK for them.
 
I like a lot of POP, others like Jazz, some will like Punk, but some of us simply can't stand Punk, and that's also OK IMHO, I don't understand what is so closed minded and pretentious in knowing what we like and what we don't like....Or is it a condition for being considered open minded to like every single genre?.
 
I believe Prog and Punk are the opposite extremes of the musical universe, you may like both, it's your taste, but trying to say Prog is remotely related with them is not accurate IMO.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 05 2007 at 02:17
            
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Points: 3928 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 04:51
^Yes, that does exist too. Some punk musicians have commented on how notoriously narrow-minded a certain contingent of punk followers are, where if a song goes over a certain length they won't listen to it. I do think though that the music journalists tend to be more guilty of this than the musicians or fans, though.
 
But in all fairness, I've seen similar things happen here and other forums, where shorter songs are sometimes dismissed in favour of longer ones. Prog and punk aren't so very dissimilar after all!!LOL
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Points: 2818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 06:26
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
Here once in a while a read a lot of people talking about how much they like Punk, others even talking about Prog Punk, but you won't ever see that in a Punk site, there you will just read insults, and that's OK for us and if they are happy, it's OK for them.
 
I like a lot of POP, others like Jazz, some will like Punk, but some of us simply can't stand Punk, and that's also OK IMHO, I don't understand what is so closed minded and pretentious in knowing what we like and what we don't like....Or is it a condition for being considered open minded to like every single genre?.
 

Iván
 
 

I understand what you're saying,  but the problem is that usually when someone knocks the punk genre here, they often haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about. If you've given the genre a fair try, and noticed that this is not for me, then it's absolutely OK to even detest punk, but most people tend to base their opinions on stereotypes and aren't even willing to try.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is also true for most punk fans when they knock our beloved genre, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

Open-mindedness doesn't have anything to do with liking every single genre, it has everything to do with being honest enough to give every genre a chance. Smile




Edited by Jimbo - September 05 2007 at 06:28
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Points: 7606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 06:49
... I like Cardiacs and eX-Girl. can we all meet on the border? ;P
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Points: 2818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 07:22
Originally posted by schizoid_man77 schizoid_man77 wrote:

Jimbo, I do understand in some weird kind of way that prog and punk are actually very simalar BECAUSE they are opposites!
 
Long songs/short songs
 
Complex music/ very simple music
 
Spacey far minded lyrics/ straight forward lyrics
 
The only thing they have in common is that they are both dogged by the media and are now underground. But I simply cannot get into the sloppy playing and "lets have sex all the time" lyrics. I respect it, but you will find me listening to nirvana before the sex pistols.

Watch these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5I2vEcVC_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bMC8DloyJU

Both are generally seen as (post-) punk bands. Smile Not all punk is based on mind-numbingly simple songs and "let's have sex all the time" lyrics.
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Points: 3928 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 10:04
Actually, I've never heard many punk songs with sex-related lyrics; it's a topic that seldom crops up in the genre, in my experience. There's all that dumb stuff like Blink 182 etc. but I imagine most punk fans detest that sort of thing anyway as much as we probably do here.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 14:04
Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:


I understand what you're saying,  but the problem is that usually when someone knocks the punk genre here, they often haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about. If you've given the genre a fair try, and noticed that this is not for me, then it's absolutely OK to even detest punk, but most people tend to base their opinions on stereotypes and aren't even willing to try.
 
Well, I agree, there's people that talks about bands they never heard, even Prog, I just seen a post saying STYX is pure POP, surely that person has not heard the debut album, STYX II or The Serpent is Rising.
 
A lot of times people say "Hey Kansas is AOR and shouldn't be here" but later they admit they haven't heard anything except Dust in the Wind, so they base themselves  in what they heard other people as little informed as them have previously said.
 
About two weeks ago, we had a reunion in a house of of a Pink Floyd fan to pass DVD's in order to get familiar with Prog bands, I showed them Device Voice Drum by Kansas and 7 out of 8 (I am the eight) were surprised, they thought Kansas was something like Boston, but when they saw Icarus and specially Miracles Out of Nowhere, they just were not able to believe, 4 of them bought the DVD in the next 48 hours.
 
Some people have told me how can I like Can Utility and the Coastliners much more than Suppers Ready if the second one is a long epic and the other one barely passes the 5 minutes, it's absurd to rate a song based exclusively in it's lenght or complexity, simply you like it or not.
 
Get used to it, people talks without ever haven't heard anything.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is also true for most punk fans when they knock our beloved genre, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse.
 
No, of course not, you can remember when about two years ago  Karny and other members made a blitzkrieg writing Punk was crap in the Punk77  Forum, we all condemned that, because there is no reason to attack anybody else for what they do in their forum, and if they do something wrong, we shouldn't copy them.

Open-mindedness doesn't have anything to do with liking every single genre, it has everything to do with being honest enough to give every genre a chance. Smile
 
I understand your position, it's cioherent, but lately when you say tou don't like Punk  or Rap or hip Hop, there's always perople saying you are an arrogant  close minded because you don't gave Rap a chance (for example).
 
Every person is a different universe, I don't even believe that a person who likes only Prog is close minded, it's just his/her personal taste neither a person who likes everything is necesarilly open minded, sometimes he is, others just don't have a defined taste.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 14:25
Originally posted by salmacis salmacis wrote:

^Yes, that does exist too. Some punk musicians have commented on how notoriously narrow-minded a certain contingent of punk followers are, where if a song goes over a certain length they won't listen to it. I do think though that the music journalists tend to be more guilty of this than the musicians or fans, though.
 
But in all fairness, I've seen similar things happen here and other forums, where shorter songs are sometimes dismissed in favour of longer ones. Prog and punk aren't so very dissimilar after all!!LOL


I think musicians are in general much more open-minded than most of their fans. As to music journalists, they are very often the ones who create and foster false myths, such as punk musicians' hatred of prog, or the other way around. Remember that John Lydon's infamous "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt was nothing but a clever marketing ploy (The Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle, anyone?), and that later he admitted to being into VDGG and King Crimson.  Anyway, in my humble opinion, many of the historic "punk" bands were really something else from a musical point of view - or, at the very least, their punk stage didn't last long at all (see The Clash, The Stranglers, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and others).

Nowadays, people like The Mars Volta are showing that you can have punk influences in prog, and that they are not at all detrimental.... Personally, I've never been into punk, but I like quite a few new wave bands. I also think that open-mindedness is a must for anyone who really loves music.
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Points: 890 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 15:02
As I mentioned in another thread, I have a few good hardcore punk friends who are just crazy about Ozrics, Gong and Hawkwind. One is also a Gryphon, Circulus and Enid fan. These guys are true punks, who have not only wore the mohicans and bondage gear but also lived the lifestyle for the last 25 years, are some of the most musically broad minded people I know. They never dismiss my tastes and I return the favour. OK, they'd never be caught dead listening to ELP, but you'd be amazed if you were to casually browse through their collections, at just how many prog credible bands you might find.
My own favourite Punk band is Conflict. Their "Ungovernable Force" album makes the hair stand up on my arms.
 
Here's a Conflict lyric about the Punk movement.
 

A PISS IN THE OCEAN

Punk played it's own important role in the fight against oppression
Aired awareness, new opinions, destroyed formerly accepted obsessions
Right out the window went stale traditions, false morals blinded hope
Respect for authority joined them; we made them a standing joke
We said, "f**k off" smarmy popstar sh*ts portraying images of a perfect world
Smearing a happy, clean face on reality, "it's the Queens Jubilee…" go to hell
Refusing to be puppets with the promise of a future, there is no future
So never mind the bollocks, because anarchy in the UK suits us
The public screamed in outcry, demanded immediate termination
The "scum of the earth" has raised its voice "How could they do this to our nation?"
The media tried to destroy us, stop the 'poor mans' rock invasion
The exposure only helped us reveal their hopeless situation

Gaining in momentum and numbers, we needed spokesmen
And that came from four people from the real world, just like the rest of us
We now had a voice, an alternative, our message getting louder
Nothing now could stop us rising up to meet their fast advancing challenge
But when the challenge came, they crumbled, as the four proved easy prey
For the states clever weapon money proved too tempting once again
Big b*****d business cheque books opened up and then swallowed
Those leeches sucked hard slyly, and we couldn't believe the scenes that followed

Punk shops - " roll up! Buy your rebellion here!"
Badges, posters, bondage, books, colouring for your hair
Like sheep they flocked to buy punk rock, a part of the new threat!
The country laughed and screamed "punk flop"; it now seemed punk was dead!

They toured the lands to Disneyland We stood and could only watch
And ripped the state apart As they took everything we stood for
Destroyed the music status quo And made a mockery of it
And created a new start The four feeding finance straight back
Their jet set pads, the sunny land Into the system they supposedly despised
The songs of train robbings What was once the black flag of anarchy
It's just all more money in the bank Was now the colours of the Union Jack
So come on boys and girls and sing

The movement, punk rock, who cares? We are just another band; they were just another band
Direct action is what achieves change, not miming to words, how much longer must we sing the same old song?
Crawling from the mess that they'd left standing as our future
We realised we needed 'no one' to mouth off our message for us
Told big business to take a running jump, went back underground where we started
The tribe then split, as some stayed behind to mourn

(1986)
Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Points: 3004 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 15:30
To me, one of the most "punk" band out there is the Velvet Underground, and theyt are one of my favourite bands of all time... but then again, i don't lile ELP or Genesis, so i guess you can all disregard my opinion :)

'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 15:55
I don't knock punk because it killed prog or anything like that, the only reason I ever knock it is because I think the music blows. Not talking about post-punk, prog crossovers or music with a punk influence, there's plenty of it that I like; such as The Mars Volta is in my top three bands ever and they are punky at times. However plain old punk like Sex Pistols, Ramones, etc as well as modern hardcore and pop punk is *in my humble opinion* complete talentless crap, I just don't enjoy it, along with gangsta rap(and I do like some hip hop) it's a genre I just don't like.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 16:41
One of the reasons why there is some reticence and even animosity towards Punk is that many people cannot see past the "Punk killed Prog" myth - and a myth it is - one created by Malcolm MacLaren and John Lydon as a publicity stunt to promote THE SEX PISTOLS and leapt on by lazy journalists then perpetrated erroneously ever since by Punks and Proggers alike. To paraphrase Mark Twain, The rumours of Prog's death have been greatly exaggerated.
 
The Punk Rock of 1976/7 is not the same as the Punk Rock from 1983 onwards - they are practically different genres – there is no relationship or comparison – they may ape the style but it is a mere pastiche. Let’s be honest here - any band formed after 1983 had no impact on the decline of Progressive music – they are more a symptom of the original movements’ ethos rather than its true descendant and by that virtue have more in common with Neo-Prog so should, by all rights, be called Neo Punk.
 
The narrowness of the (Punk) genre I was referring to in my previous post was not towards the simplicity music, (though I do not deny that it is often an inherent trait) but in the ideology that created it. Punk music was born of nihilism and anarchy, boredom, frustration and anger. The problem there is that success is self-defeating: you cannot kick against the establishment if you are the establishment, you cannot fight the system if you are a part of the system - and that is where the original Punk Rock floundered - they couldn't be angry all the time – as I said, they flared briefly and died.
 
The second Punk myth, that any bunch of talentless no-hopers could form a band and make it big was soon burst. The bulk of those bands (those that really did not have an ounce of talent or originality) soon lost all enthusiasm once they were not snapped-up for mega-bucks deals like THE SEX PISTOLS had been. The only winners were the Pawn shops who sold them the beaten-up guitars that they could not be bothered to learn to play. (I admit, going back to Alan’s original post, it is fun to thrash out a punk riff now and then, but I’d also add it is even more satisfying creating something a little more intricate even if I have no hope of ever jamming along to a DREAM THEATER CD)
 
Only a few bands stayed loyal to the cause, (CRASS held out until 1984, however their ideology was more diverse and political than most punk bands), but by 1978 the majority of the original Punk bands were gone, dried empty husks washed up on the beach of time, their life-force spent and exhausted. The rest mutated and evolved, bands like THE DAMMED, THE STRANGLERS and THE CLASH drew influences from other genres and actually progressed, creating concept albums and 17 minute epics, others moved into other genres, some created new genres all of their own, (a few of which we now consolidate as Post Rock and Advant Prog), and others, (such as BAUHAUS, SIOUXSIE & THE BANSHEES, THE MISFITS, THE CURE etc.) who inspired Gothic Rock and hence Gothic Metal, themselves indirectly influenced Prog Metal.
 
Truth be told, all music is influenced by everything that came before it – Prog influenced Punk by omission, and in turn, Punk has left its mark on Prog.
 
Now, Ska-punk … that’s a whole different kettle of fish and one worthy of (my) derision.
 
What?
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Greg W View Drop Down
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Points: 3904 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 16:52

Ultimately punk is about image and attitude while prog is about music. Enough said.
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Points: 2523 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2007 at 23:58
Originally posted by Greg W Greg W wrote:

Ultimately punk is about image and attitude while prog is about music. Enough said.

ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
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there are no second chances.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2007 at 00:04
I don't think that's totally true.
 
Punk is also about communal experience (ever try to mosh to Yes (except the CTTE verse Wink)) and having fun. I'm not saying prog isn't fun (it is), but being in an audience watching a keyboardist solo for minutes on end is not something I automatically want to do (I'm not that big a fan of standing and not moving around in some way at a concert as it is).


Edited by stonebeard - September 06 2007 at 00:06
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Points: 1594 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2007 at 04:05
Originally posted by martinprog77 martinprog77 wrote:

Originally posted by Greg W Greg W wrote:

Ultimately punk is about image and attitude while prog is about music. Enough said.

ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
To badly paraphrase Rush: if you choose not to have an image, you have still chosen an image! Wink Seriously though, punk has an image which many may find off-putting and can overshadow the music. 
"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Points: 890 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2007 at 12:08
Sorry, but  I can't agree that punk is all about attitude and image . Sure, the pop punk that filled the charts (Jilted John, the Buzzcocks etc.) were pretty much image based, but people, I get the impression that your knowledge of the punk movement is fairly slim. It's no greater than a punk who, having heard his dad's copy of DSOTM, thinks he knows enough about prog to hold an opinion. Real Punk is perhaps 10% "attitude and image" and 90% ideology. The real Punks I know are serious animal rights activists, or squat empty properties that have been bought by immoral capitalists as investments and deliberately kept empty for years while people go homeless, or take to the streets to fight fascists at neo-nazi rallies, supporting persecuted social groups such as Gays or Jews. Roger Waters may have put on a "the Wall" show in Berlin a year after the event, but Punks were railing against it with direct action long before. Really, I don't know how many punks you know, but when I think "Punk", the last thing on my mind is an image conscious Greenday fan with a skateboard under his arm.
Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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