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Ivan_Melgar_M 
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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 Posted: August 05 2007 at 21:09 |
 Ghost Rider wrote:
I don't understand why you and others keep digging up Iron Maiden again and again. As the person responsible for their addition, I can tell you that it wasn't something done on the spur of the moment, or without the approval of the owners. People had been suggesting them for addition for months, and they were on the Prog Metal team chart.
Agree with you Raff 100%.
I m known for being one of the most stubborn purists, but I also supported Iron Maiden and would do it again, IMHO they are by far the most direct influence for Prog Metal.
The same cannot be said for David Bowie, who has LOTS of supporters anyway , in case you haven't noticed. The problem is, people don't seem to agree on where to put it, whether in Prog-Related or in Art Rock (which is a 100% prog genre). I am quite sure that, if he ever gets added, there will be many forum members complaining about him as there are now complaining about Iron Maiden, Queen, The Who, Deep Purple, and so on.
As usually i will disagree with his inclusion, I believe he's not an influence for Prog directly.
But i am sure that no artist qwill be pleased to be added with the stupid argument that there are less Prog artists here, if somebodty is addded let him be added for his merits, not because he's more Prog than Michael Jackson.  And then, in case you hadn't noticed.. Iron Maiden are in Prog-Related, which means NOT PROG. The forum isn't flooded with threads about them or any other PR band, seen as they have a separate section. Such arguments are getting old and stale... Perhaps it would be more productive to examine an artist's production on its own merits, instead of continuing with the same old song, "if X are here, why not Y?".
I believe Iron Maiden should be in Prog Metal, but there's a team that knows more than me and there's no reason why I wouldn't respect their choice not to accept them.
Please guys lets forget this infamous if X is here why not Y?, it's silly, mediocre and is not a valid argument, as I said before, if somebody is hitted in the right eye and gets it purple, nobody sane will hit his own left eye to be even, it's absurd.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 05 2007 at 21:12
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Ricochet
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Joined: February 27 2005
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 01:04 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
A few years ago I witnessed a live concert by David Bowie (perhaps 2002 or 2003) on the Arte Channel tv, it was awesome, so creative with many mindblowing new rendtions of classic footage and, last but not least, it was pure Art-rock, this artist should be added to Prog Archives, now, now , now  |
Very nice memories, as usual, Erik, but can I ask how memories help you think that the artist is fully prog?  Art Rock of music can definitely has some other meanings than the Art Rock of prog music. I think this is what needs to be discovered and appreciated thoroughly.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 7659
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 05:13 |
Ricochet, my post was not only pointing at great music from the past (I know I am good in memories, I am stuck into The Seventies  ) but also very good progressvie music he has made in the last ten years, really worth to check out, I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised that Bowie did so well after making that poppy music in a certain era.
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Ricochet
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 05:18 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
Ricochet, my post was not only pointing at great music from the past (I know I am good in memories, I am stuck into The Seventies ) but also very good progressvie music he has made in the last ten years, really worth to check out, I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised that Bowie did so well after making that poppy music in a certain era. |
Then I guess the recent albums he composed will have to prove that. You do, then, agree that Art Rock in music can be different than 'Art Rock' in progressive rock... Interesting , this thread started as a recommendations thread; as in "I don't know Bowie, what are his good albums?", not as in "I don't know Bowie, but is he prog?".
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 7659
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 10:12 |
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Ricochet, it's about Art-rock on Prog Archives, that differs from the category Art-rock I grew up with in the Seventies while reading UK music magazines like The Melody maker, The New Musical Express and Sounds: inventive rock (along the progressive rock movement) like early Roxy Music, Queen, Supertramp 10CC and David Bowie. In my opinion David Bowie deserves to be mentioned in the category Art-rock, rather than Prog-related, with the same motivation as Genesis is in Symphonic Prog instead of Prog-related.
Edited by erik neuteboom - August 06 2007 at 10:13
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Ricochet
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 10:15 |
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why is Genesis "mentioned" in Symphonic Prog, instead of Prog-Related?
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BaldFriede
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Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10266
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 10:30 |
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I think the trilogy "Low" / "Heroes" / "Lodger" was prog, especially "Lodger" (only the first song on Lodger is NOT prog, in my opinion).
I also think his Tin Machine project was quite proggy. I really enjoyed it.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: August 06 2007 at 14:38 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I think the trilogy "Low" / "Heroes" / "Lodger" was prog, especially "Lodger" (only the first song on Lodger is NOT prog, in my opinion).
I also think his Tin Machine project was quite proggy. I really enjoyed it.
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Wow! Someone else likes the much maligned Tin Machine 
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What?
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: August 31 2007 at 02:52 |
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Probably the most prog sounding Bowie record is "Low", having Eno on board doesn't hurt.
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Jim Garten
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Posted: August 31 2007 at 07:28 |
ZowieZiggy wrote:
A good option would be his double live album : "Stage" |
Great album, benefitting from Adrian Belew on lead guitar, too; the versions of 'Station To Station' & TVC15 stand out in particular, as does 'Five Years' 
darqdean wrote:
Someone else likes the much maligned Tin Machine |
So it was you two who bought the albums, eh? 
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Christian
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Joined: August 25 2005
Location: Czech Republic
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Points: 61
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 03:59 |
I am Bowie fan since the early 70's and have all his albums. I did not consider him prog, but since we have acts like 10CC, Supertramp and ELO in the arcives I definitely think he fits as well.
Listen to the concept album 1.Outside from 1995 and you may agree!
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Raff
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 04:11 |
Christian wrote:
I am Bowie fan since the early 70's and have all his albums. I did not consider him prog, but since we have acts like 10CC, Supertramp and ELO in the arcives I definitely think he fits as well.
Listen to the concept album 1.Outside from 1995 and you may agree! |
Just a word of clarification: 10CC and ELO are in Prog-Related, which means exactly what it says - that its, they are NOT prog, but influenced by it. There has been a lot of debate on whether Bowie belongs here. Lots of people are in favour, others are vehemently against. However, since controversial additions are likely to cause quite a bit of unrest in the forums, the Admin Team is trying to keep them under control.
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 08:46 |
I try to stay out of arguments about this site  with that in mind I think Bowie is a progressive artist in that on many occaisons he has pushed rock into new directions and increased its scope.
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The Doctor
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 09:47 |
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I would classify Bowie as more of an experimental rock artist. Not quite prog. Certainly some of his stuff would qualify as prog, songs like "Cygnet Committee", "Wild-Eyed Boy from Freecloud", "Station to Station" and some of his electronic meanderings on Low and Heroes. But not enough of his stuff qualifies as progressive to include him here in the archives I think. Bowie is probably the most intelligent and experimental pop song writer out there, but that doesn't qualify him as progressive. And this is coming from a huge Bowie fan. I believe I own all of his albums, including his stuff with Tin Machine, most of his soundtrack work, etc.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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jimidom
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Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 09:51 |
Easy Money wrote:
I try to stay out of arguments about this site with that in mind I think Bowie is a progressive artist in that on many occaisons he has pushed rock into new directions and increased its scope. |
I agree. He is the epitome of the concept that a progressive artist may still not be Prog per se. Doesn't his affiliation with Eno and his collabs with Eno, Fripp, Belew, etc. qualify as "prog related"?
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 18:40 |
The Doctor wrote:
I would classify Bowie as more of an experimental rock artist. Not quite prog. Certainly some of his stuff would qualify as prog, songs like "Cygnet Committee", "Wild-Eyed Boy from Freecloud", "Station to Station" and some of his electronic meanderings on Low and Heroes. But not enough of his stuff qualifies as progressive to include him here in the archives I think. Bowie is probably the most intelligent and experimental pop song writer out there, but that doesn't qualify him as progressive. And this is coming from a huge Bowie fan. I believe I own all of his albums, including his stuff with Tin Machine, most of his soundtrack work, etc. |
You must be a Bowie fan if you can get into Tin Machine Actually I thought it was cool that he used that band to dump his mega rock star status, which he had at that time, and I also liked their cover of "In every dream home ... "
Edited by Easy Money - October 03 2007 at 00:18
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 18:44 |
No web site can be all things to all people, but I think Bowie's best songs are like mini albums packed into one song, kind of like how the Simpsons can pack a movie like epic into 25 minutes.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 18:53 |
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just yesterday I was discussing this with a musician friend (always like to get a non-progster's opinion).. when I casually asked if he thought Bowie was 'Prog' he immediately said "No", but then I asked if he thought Bowie was a progressive rock musician, and he said "Oh hell yeah"
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micky
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 19:05 |
Atavachron wrote:
just yesterday I was discussing this with a musician
friend (always like to get a non-progster's opinion).. when I casually
asked if he thought Bowie was 'Prog' he immediately said "No", but then
I asked if he thought Bowie was a progressive rock musician, and he
said "Oh hell yeah"
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that is why David that there is such a split on him....many strongly
for... and many strongly against. 'Prog' is a label stuck upon an
artist, regardless of the music.. 'progressive' describes the
music. Some judge based upon only a label.. some upon the
music itself. That is why we fight as we do over these
addtions... I could bring up a past addtion as an example ... but I see that
someone already did though in a different context
So I won't. I think the point is clear though.. usually it's
those who judge as labels that cause the problems here. Anyhow...
that's all I want to say about him. For now of course.
Edited by micky - October 02 2007 at 19:06
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 02 2007 at 19:18 |
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yes, and also there's the other ugly little secret of judging music.. and that is personal taste. It isn't suppose to matter but, in fact, it does-- i.e. I would probably not support the addition of, say, Lou Reed, but mostly because I don't care for his music.. but is he progressive... and well, there you have it
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Bowie prog?
