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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2007 at 17:52
that's not what I said, so why twist my words?


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Points: 21136 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2007 at 17:55
^ because there's nothing I could say that could possibly change your mind other than stating the obvious, which you simply ignore.

Tell you what: How about writing an email to Peter Hammill, asking him whether he thinks that bands like Adagio are influenced by classical music and that it is a major element of their style? He probably won't answer - but if he does I'd like to know!
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Points: 21136 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 02:11
Here's something interesting which I found at wikipedia:

The appropriation of "classical" music by heavy metal typically involves musical elements associated with Baroque, Romantic, and Modernist composers such as Johann Sebastian Bach, Niccolň Paganini, Richard Wagner, Ludwig van Beethoven, Béla Bartók, and Igor Stravinsky. The tritone, for instance, was already exploited for its dark, anguished connotations by Romantics like Franz Liszt and 20th-century classical composers such as Bartók, Stravinsky, and Arnold Schoenberg. Deep Purple/RainbowRitchie Blackmore began experimenting with musical figurations borrowed from classical music in the early 1970s. In the 1980s, guitarists Randy Rhoads and Uli Jon Roth looked to the early 18th century for models of speed and technique. Yngwie Malmsteen, drawing from similar roots, has inspired myriad neoclassical metal players including Michael Romeo, Michael Angelo Batio, and Tony MacAlpine. guitarist

Despite the fact that many metal musicians have cited classical composers as inspiration, heavy metal is hardly the modern descendant of classical music.[18] As many critics and analysts have observed, heavy metal musicians focus on and borrow only superficial aspects of classical music, such as motifs, melodies, and scales. Heavy metal bands, including progressive and neoclassical metal bands, generally do not try to observe the basic compositional and aesthetical exigencies of classical music. Classical music is erudite music, whereas heavy metal is popular music.[19]counterpoint that is central to the composer's work. Moreover, the extensive use of power chords in heavy metal, implying countless consecutive fifths and octaves, violates rules of harmony at the heart of the classical aesthetic.
Players who cite Bach as an influence, for example, seldom make use of the complex counterpoint that is central to the composer's work. Moreover, the extensive use of power chords in heavy metal, implying countless consecutive fifths and octaves, violates rules of harmony at the heart of the classical aesthetic.

I think that it's a bit harsh to say that all the aspects metal "borrows" from classical are superficial ... but I agree 100% that most (if not all) progressive metal albums are not a form of classical music. I don't think it's possible to create music which is both "erudite" and "popular" ... the two aspects are mutually exclusive. Maybe Orff's Carmina Burana comes close to achieving that ...

The point is: If you listen to a piece of neoclassical metal then you can't deny the profound influence of classical music.
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 02:40
Hey, I like the new organization of subgenres but I hate the names.  Heavy prog, crossover prog.....   They really sound stupid.   It'd have been nice to give a bit more thought to them.  I can live with the eclectic prog one, though.
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Points: 1823 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 07:06
I think the new genres are really good. Clap
 
I always thought that VDGG, King Crimson and Gentle Giant should be together somewhere in their own genre.
 
It's good to finally see Rush getting out of Art Rock and into a genre that describes them better (Heavy Prog).
 
Crossover Prog is a good idea too. Maybe the name should be something more like Prog-pop?


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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 07:21
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Here's something interesting which I found at wikipedia:

The appropriation of "classical" music by heavy metal typically involves musical elements associated with Baroque, Romantic, and Modernist composers such as Johann Sebastian Bach, Niccolň Paganini, Richard Wagner, Ludwig van Beethoven, Béla Bartók, and Igor Stravinsky. The tritone, for instance, was already exploited for its dark, anguished connotations by Romantics like Franz Liszt and 20th-century classical composers such as Bartók, Stravinsky, and Arnold Schoenberg. Deep Purple/RainbowRitchie Blackmore began experimenting with musical figurations borrowed from classical music in the early 1970s. In the 1980s, guitarists Randy Rhoads and Uli Jon Roth looked to the early 18th century for models of speed and technique. Yngwie Malmsteen, drawing from similar roots, has inspired myriad neoclassical metal players including Michael Romeo, Michael Angelo Batio, and Tony MacAlpine. guitarist

Despite the fact that many metal musicians have cited classical composers as inspiration, heavy metal is hardly the modern descendant of classical music.[18] As many critics and analysts have observed, heavy metal musicians focus on and borrow only superficial aspects of classical music, such as motifs, melodies, and scales. Heavy metal bands, including progressive and neoclassical metal bands, generally do not try to observe the basic compositional and aesthetical exigencies of classical music. Classical music is erudite music, whereas heavy metal is popular music.[19]counterpoint that is central to the composer's work. Moreover, the extensive use of power chords in heavy metal, implying countless consecutive fifths and octaves, violates rules of harmony at the heart of the classical aesthetic.
Players who cite Bach as an influence, for example, seldom make use of the complex counterpoint that is central to the composer's work. Moreover, the extensive use of power chords in heavy metal, implying countless consecutive fifths and octaves, violates rules of harmony at the heart of the classical aesthetic.

I think that it's a bit harsh to say that all the aspects metal "borrows" from classical are superficial ... but I agree 100% that most (if not all) progressive metal albums are not a form of classical music. I don't think it's possible to create music which is both "erudite" and "popular" ... the two aspects are mutually exclusive. Maybe Orff's Carmina Burana comes close to achieving that ...

The point is: If you listen to a piece of neoclassical metal then you can't deny the profound influence of classical music.

Mike, the problem we have is a general problem of classification; what you call "prog metal with classical influences" would not land under "prog metal" at all with me. example: Adagio. metal is just one of many elements in their music and by far not the major one; if I had to file them in a single category I would never file them under "prog metal", I would file them under "symphonic prog".
of course I am not at all happy with a band belonging to one genre alone at all; the best solution would be to assign both labels to Adagio and be done with it. and even better to assign labels to albums anyway


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 07:27
I think Eclectic-Prog as a name is going to cause problems - I've already seen it misread as Electric-Prog in the forum.
 
However I do agree with classifying VdGG, KC and GG together in one place - the problem then comes with who is worthy enough to join such an exhalted club. (Well, Fripp and Hammill solos aside Wink), I do not envy the person who elects to add the fourth band.
What?
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Points: 21136 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 09:25
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Here's something interesting which I found at wikipedia:

The appropriation of "classical" music by heavy metal typically involves musical elements associated with Baroque, Romantic, and Modernist composers such as Johann Sebastian Bach, Niccolň Paganini, Richard Wagner, Ludwig van Beethoven, Béla Bartók, and Igor Stravinsky. The tritone, for instance, was already exploited for its dark, anguished connotations by Romantics like Franz Liszt and 20th-century classical composers such as Bartók, Stravinsky, and Arnold Schoenberg. Deep Purple/RainbowRitchie Blackmore began experimenting with musical figurations borrowed from classical music in the early 1970s. In the 1980s, guitarists Randy Rhoads and Uli Jon Roth looked to the early 18th century for models of speed and technique. Yngwie Malmsteen, drawing from similar roots, has inspired myriad neoclassical metal players including Michael Romeo, Michael Angelo Batio, and Tony MacAlpine. guitarist

Despite the fact that many metal musicians have cited classical composers as inspiration, heavy metal is hardly the modern descendant of classical music.[18] As many critics and analysts have observed, heavy metal musicians focus on and borrow only superficial aspects of classical music, such as motifs, melodies, and scales. Heavy metal bands, including progressive and neoclassical metal bands, generally do not try to observe the basic compositional and aesthetical exigencies of classical music. Classical music is erudite music, whereas heavy metal is popular music.[19]counterpoint that is central to the composer's work. Moreover, the extensive use of power chords in heavy metal, implying countless consecutive fifths and octaves, violates rules of harmony at the heart of the classical aesthetic.
Players who cite Bach as an influence, for example, seldom make use of the complex counterpoint that is central to the composer's work. Moreover, the extensive use of power chords in heavy metal, implying countless consecutive fifths and octaves, violates rules of harmony at the heart of the classical aesthetic.

I think that it's a bit harsh to say that all the aspects metal "borrows" from classical are superficial ... but I agree 100% that most (if not all) progressive metal albums are not a form of classical music. I don't think it's possible to create music which is both "erudite" and "popular" ... the two aspects are mutually exclusive. Maybe Orff's Carmina Burana comes close to achieving that ...

The point is: If you listen to a piece of neoclassical metal then you can't deny the profound influence of classical music.

Mike, the problem we have is a general problem of classification; what you call "prog metal with classical influences" would not land under "prog metal" at all with me. example: Adagio. metal is just one of many elements in their music and by far not the major one; if I had to file them in a single category I would never file them under "prog metal", I would file them under "symphonic prog".
of course I am not at all happy with a band belonging to one genre alone at all; the best solution would be to assign both labels to Adagio and be done with it. and even better to assign labels to albums anyway


You're always welcome on my website where I'm trying to do just that ... genre per album, multiple genres, you can even create genres of your own (by combining tags).Smile
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Points: 3497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 10:36
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

However I do agree with classifying VdGG, KC and GG together in one place - the problem then comes with who is worthy enough to join such an exhalted club. (Well, Fripp and Hammill solos aside Wink), I do not envy the person who elects to add the fourth band.
 
Gnidrolog   ?
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Points: 65245 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2007 at 01:38
Hi everyone-- I was gone for ten days so sorry for not chiming in, and thanks for the great discussions and feedback. All bands that were ArtRock (the bulk of which are currently in Crossover) will be moved to Heavy, Eclectic or will stay in Crossover. It will take time, probably more than you think, but it will be done!








Edited by Atavachron - August 25 2007 at 01:39
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Points: 6890 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2007 at 01:41
Welcome backHug
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andu View Drop Down
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2007 at 02:58
...dude.
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Points: 362 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2007 at 14:30
I just hope the archives won't end up like that ridiculous list of rock music on Wikipedia.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2007 at 14:43
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

I just hope the archives won't end up like that ridiculous list of rock music on Wikipedia.


That list mentions "Classic Rock" as a genre! ShockedDeadAngryOuch

Wikipedia has never been a really good resource for music though.

I'm confident the owners of Prog Archives won't let the genre list on the website go completely out of hand. I don't think there's anything to worry about, really. Smile
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2007 at 12:25
A week without Internet, and all hell breaks loose...Wink

Seriously, I haven't had the time to read all the posts because of very erratic Internet access, but as soon as I get back to Italy (next weekCry) I'll do my homework and probably join one of the three new teams.

BTW, I am one of the people behind the original idea for the split... Remember that the AR Team was a creation of Micky and I, and we immediately realised that the 'genre' was unmanageable as it was. Hopefully this innovation won't be an excuse for people to start calling each other names, as it seems to happen all too often nowadays.
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Points: 7744 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2007 at 12:32
Originally posted by Fassbinder Fassbinder wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

However I do agree with classifying VdGG, KC and GG together in one place - the problem then comes with who is worthy enough to join such an exhalted club. (Well, Fripp and Hammill solos aside Wink), I do not envy the person who elects to add the fourth band.
 
Gnidrolog   ?

seconded.
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Points: 76 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2007 at 19:01
Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:


And heavy prog is Tangerine Dream I guess...that damn equipment must've been very heavyWink
 
LOL I saw them back around 1981 and that was the first time I ever saw a band with (a) an interval in the show and (b) people rushing to the front to ogle the kit.  It sure looked heavy to me.
 
But seriously, the split makes sense to me even though I think there will be lots of confusion over heavy prog and prog metal.
 
Cheers
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Points: 65245 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2007 at 19:10
Originally posted by ProgRobUK ProgRobUK wrote:

the split makes sense to me even though I think there will be lots of confusion over heavy prog and prog metal.
 

Cheers



I doubt it


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Points: 144 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2007 at 19:18

"genre" is a shaky concept, "subgenre" is an even more shaky one. the controversy will never end; i am in acceptance of that.
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2007 at 21:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ProgRobUK ProgRobUK wrote:

the split makes sense to me even though I think there will be lots of confusion over heavy prog and prog metal.
 

Cheers



I doubt it




I also think the heavy thing is pretty clear in people's minds. One can't really say metal when talking about the 70s, at least not after what we've been through after the 70s. Back then people thought different - I just saw Woody Allen's "Annie Hall", and, when his character struggles to find the perfect matching word to use when asking about a rock concert, he doesn't say "was it metal?", but instead he asks about it's heavyosity... LOL


Didn't know where to post this - either here or in the "You invents a word" thread LOL
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