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thellama73 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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 Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:26 |
 Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
There's a Dr. Seuss story I'm fond of referencing. In the story, the King Monkey gets his second in command to hold his tail off the ground. Then the second in command wants someone to hold up his tail too, and so on until everyone is holding up someone else's tail except the last guy in line. In the end, they find that a better solution is for everyone to hold up his own tail. That is what capitalism is all about and why it works so well. Everyone is expected to hold up their own tail.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:27 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
You don't want rights? I suspect you would care more about them if you lived under a brutal dictator and didn't have any.
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A great tragedy of the American Public, generally speaking but inclusive of myself. They do not understand what our forefathers went through. Plain and simple, Americans have a very cushy life. |
See the problem is that some people dont have them, I would willingly give so they could have them. the point is I dont NEED them.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:28 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
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Watch it! This idea is very UnAmerican. No wait, very un-Capitalist.
In order to accomplish eliminating poverty, you must spread the wealth.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:28 |
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
I think the reason that you cant understand me Equality with numbers is that you view yourself as an american, I dont I am a citizen of the world, my views are global. |
Citizens of the world generally like being entitled to the rights and pleasures of a U.S. citizens without bearing any of the responsibility of it. America is not the global police or Santa Claus. We can't be expected to take every country and citizen of the world and make everything beautiful and everybody happy. We have a duty, laid out by our constitution, to do the best possible for our citizens. In return our citizens do the best we can for the country. Without that the social contract breaks down and we can't really say we're a nation when we have people who are global citizens and not American citizens.
When we start to act like a global country, as we already have. The republic (I use the term carefully refering to America these days) will crumble and we won't be in a position to help anyone let alone ourselves. |
As soon as I get a chance I hope to start a mission in another country, I don't want rights or pleasures I want to do the right thing. I cant go yet cuz' im a bit under age.
Again I respect your position, there is no way to prove one way or another, your isolationism makes as much sence as my global citezenship does. |
My "isolationism" made this country the greatest the world's ever seen. Your global citizenship ruins countries.
Non-politics, what sort of mission are you referring to. |
See, looking at things from your perspective you are right, i'll give you that. This is the greatest country, it would probably have to give up some of it wealth, but that is not what I am concerned with.
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This nation has no wealth. We're up to our ears in a debt that we do nothing to fix or even contain. We've gone from the biggest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor in two generations. Yet we still insist on giving foreign aid.
I respect the mission, but I would remind you that the "corrupt" organized religion of the catholic church has been doing the same for hundreds of years despite the blood of its missionaries being shed.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:28 |
thellama73 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
There's a Dr. Seuss story I'm fond of referencing. In the story, the King Monkey gets his second in command to hold his tail off the ground. Then the second in command wants someone to hold up his tail too, and so on until everyone is holding up someone else's tail except the last guy in line. In the end, they find that a better solution is for everyone to hold up his own tail.
That is what capitalism is all about and why it works so well. Everyone is expected to hold up their own tail.
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no because we still work for others who pay us, if we get laid off we lose the hands holding that tail up.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:31 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
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by allowing people to funnel their money posestions and hard work to the areas that need it most, not as a government but as a personal choise, obviously it wont solve the problem, but its better than sitting back and waiting for elected offitials to do it.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:32 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
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Watch it! This idea is very UnAmerican. No wait, very un-Capitalist.
In order to accomplish eliminating poverty, you must spread the wealth. |
Yes because Capitalist America doesn't give more money in foreign aid and charity, and contribute more missionaries than any other country in the world.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:32 |
Proletariat wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
There's a Dr. Seuss story I'm fond of referencing. In the story, the King Monkey gets his second in command to hold his tail off the ground. Then the second in command wants someone to hold up his tail too, and so on until everyone is holding up someone else's tail except the last guy in line. In the end, they find that a better solution is for everyone to hold up his own tail.
That is what capitalism is all about and why it works so well. Everyone is expected to hold up their own tail.
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no because we still work for others who pay us, if we get laid off we lose the hands holding that tail up. |
You act as if it's our duty to employ people, as if giving people jobs is some sort of charity. If you have a job, it's because you're doing something that is needed, not because some generous soul wanted to help you. If you get fired, it's because you are not providing a service anyone needs, not because the big bad corporations want to ruin your life. We hold ourselves up by our abilities and dilligence. It's not a matter of luck.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:33 |
Proletariat wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This is interesting. Bringing people out of poverty is a noble goal. How do you propose to go about it?
|
by allowing people to funnel their money posestions and hard work to the areas that need it most, not as a government but as a personal choise, obviously it wont solve the problem, but its better than sitting back and waiting for elected offitials to do it. |
So you would allow for people to work in jobs where is there is large demand for their work?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:33 |
thellama73 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
There's a Dr. Seuss story I'm fond of referencing. In the story, the King Monkey gets his second in command to hold his tail off the ground. Then the second in command wants someone to hold up his tail too, and so on until everyone is holding up someone else's tail except the last guy in line. In the end, they find that a better solution is for everyone to hold up his own tail.
That is what capitalism is all about and why it works so well. Everyone is expected to hold up their own tail.
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It's ashame so many parents dismiss Dr. Suess as childrens stories when they read it to their kids, not realizing the message is as much for them as the children.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:34 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
I think the reason that you cant understand me Equality with numbers is that you view yourself as an american, I dont I am a citizen of the world, my views are global. |
Citizens of the world generally like being entitled to the rights and pleasures of a U.S. citizens without bearing any of the responsibility of it. America is not the global police or Santa Claus. We can't be expected to take every country and citizen of the world and make everything beautiful and everybody happy. We have a duty, laid out by our constitution, to do the best possible for our citizens. In return our citizens do the best we can for the country. Without that the social contract breaks down and we can't really say we're a nation when we have people who are global citizens and not American citizens.
When we start to act like a global country, as we already have. The republic (I use the term carefully refering to America these days) will crumble and we won't be in a position to help anyone let alone ourselves. |
As soon as I get a chance I hope to start a mission in another country, I don't want rights or pleasures I want to do the right thing. I cant go yet cuz' im a bit under age.
Again I respect your position, there is no way to prove one way or another, your isolationism makes as much sence as my global citezenship does. |
My "isolationism" made this country the greatest the world's ever seen. Your global citizenship ruins countries.
Non-politics, what sort of mission are you referring to. |
See, looking at things from your perspective you are right, i'll give you that. This is the greatest country, it would probably have to give up some of it wealth, but that is not what I am concerned with.
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This nation has no wealth. We're up to our ears in a debt that we do nothing to fix or even contain. We've gone from the biggest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor in two generations. Yet we still insist on giving foreign aid.
I respect the mission, but I would remind you that the "corrupt" organized religion of the catholic church has been doing the same for hundreds of years despite the blood of its missionaries being shed. |
I know they have I know it has only helped in miniscule amounts, but one life is worth it. The problem with the religions is that they expect conversions, there is no reson for it. also they have other things they have to do, and I respect that, but it dosent change the fact that lots of that money is going to another fancy church and not to the people who really need it.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:36 |
I like this thread.  Thank you all for such a good discussion.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:37 |
I would allow people to do anything, they could help however they wanted. If they chose to work at a job and give a penny thats fine. But it is really for the people who feel called to do more, again it is a personal choice, no one will call you and beg or show up at your door with a fund raser or tell you your going to hell if you dont give. but if you feel like giving or working or teaching or using whatever skill you have, then you can
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:39 |
thellama73 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
There's a Dr. Seuss story I'm fond of referencing. In the story, the King Monkey gets his second in command to hold his tail off the ground. Then the second in command wants someone to hold up his tail too, and so on until everyone is holding up someone else's tail except the last guy in line. In the end, they find that a better solution is for everyone to hold up his own tail.
That is what capitalism is all about and why it works so well. Everyone is expected to hold up their own tail.
|
no because we still work for others who pay us, if we get laid off we lose the hands holding that tail up. |
You act as if it's our duty to employ people, as if giving people jobs is some sort of charity. If you have a job, it's because you're doing something that is needed, not because some generous soul wanted to help you. If you get fired, it's because you are not providing a service anyone needs, not because the big bad corporations want to ruin your life. We hold ourselves up by our abilities and dilligence. It's not a matter of luck.
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true, I just wanted to point out a flaw in the metaphor
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
|
Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:39 |
Proletariat wrote:
I would allow people to do anything, they could help however they wanted. If they chose to work at a job and give a penny thats fine. But it is really for the people who feel called to do more, again it is a personal choice, no one will call you and beg or show up at your door with a fund raser or tell you your going to hell if you dont give. but if you feel like giving or working or teaching or using whatever skill you have, then you can |
I have no problem with that and indeed I think it's admirable, but I don't see how that's any different than now. Anyone is free to give money or food or whatever they want. No one's going to stop them.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:40 |
thellama73 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
I would allow people to do anything, they could help however they wanted. If they chose to work at a job and give a penny thats fine. But it is really for the people who feel called to do more, again it is a personal choice, no one will call you and beg or show up at your door with a fund raser or tell you your going to hell if you dont give. but if you feel like giving or working or teaching or using whatever skill you have, then you can |
I have no problem with that and indeed I think it's admirable, but I don't see how that's any different than now. Anyone is free to give money or food or whatever they want. No one's going to stop them.
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true, I'm only talking about what I personally hope to do, I realize its not special in any way
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:41 |
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So in order to lift people out of poverty, you're going to give them money. Sounds reasonable enough. But what makes your idea different from the programs where large amounts of money are given to poor countries, not just from the U.S. but many other nations (though the U.S. is the prime contributor)?
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:43 |
NaturalScience wrote:
So in order to lift people out of poverty, you're going to give them money. Sounds reasonable enough. But what makes your idea different from the programs where large amounts of money are given to poor countries, not just from the U.S. but many other nations (though the U.S. is the prime contributor)? |
By personally going myself, I dont want to start an organization, and I know its not different, thats not the point
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:44 |
This thread bores me, Im done...
... until a new argument comes up
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: August 07 2007 at 13:44 |
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
I think the reason that you cant understand me Equality with numbers is that you view yourself as an american, I dont I am a citizen of the world, my views are global. |
Citizens of the world generally like being entitled to the rights and pleasures of a U.S. citizens without bearing any of the responsibility of it. America is not the global police or Santa Claus. We can't be expected to take every country and citizen of the world and make everything beautiful and everybody happy. We have a duty, laid out by our constitution, to do the best possible for our citizens. In return our citizens do the best we can for the country. Without that the social contract breaks down and we can't really say we're a nation when we have people who are global citizens and not American citizens.
When we start to act like a global country, as we already have. The republic (I use the term carefully refering to America these days) will crumble and we won't be in a position to help anyone let alone ourselves. |
As soon as I get a chance I hope to start a mission in another country, I don't want rights or pleasures I want to do the right thing. I cant go yet cuz' im a bit under age.
Again I respect your position, there is no way to prove one way or another, your isolationism makes as much sence as my global citezenship does. |
My "isolationism" made this country the greatest the world's ever seen. Your global citizenship ruins countries.
Non-politics, what sort of mission are you referring to. |
See, looking at things from your perspective you are right, i'll give you that. This is the greatest country, it would probably have to give up some of it wealth, but that is not what I am concerned with.
a mission of bringing people out of poverty, to spill myself out in order to help another, the opposite of capitalism and completelly outside of any corrupt organization religion or government. |
This nation has no wealth. We're up to our ears in a debt that we do nothing to fix or even contain. We've gone from the biggest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor in two generations. Yet we still insist on giving foreign aid.
I respect the mission, but I would remind you that the "corrupt" organized religion of the catholic church has been doing the same for hundreds of years despite the blood of its missionaries being shed. |
I know they have I know it has only helped in miniscule amounts, but one life is worth it. The problem with the religions is that they expect conversions, there is no reson for it. also they have other things they have to do, and I respect that, but it dosent change the fact that lots of that money is going to another fancy church and not to the people who really need it. |
They mean to save people financially and spiritually. If they spread their religion while they save lives is that really something so objectionable? It's not forced down throats; it's just taught. I don't know where you get this idea that money is going to another fancy Church. Nowadays Church's are anything but fancy and the money for them isn't shipped in from the coffers of missionary contribution. Every repair, operating expense, etc that my Church needs is given by personal contributions. People don't seem to understand that a Church's air conditioners break and their foundations crumble like any other building. It needs to ask for help because all the money it collects goes to helping others and not to building some fancy Church.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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