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Dean 
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 Posted: July 31 2007 at 17:07 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Why Darqdean?
Some bands reach their peak early in their careers and then go downhill, others keep improving, people like Brave more than Fugazzi, it's simple taste.
Progressive Rock doesn't have to progress, it's only the name of a genre with certain characteristics, not an adjective that qualifies the approach of the band towards music.
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Believe it or not a agree with you. However, the genre got its name because the music being produced fitted the adjective - it was new, evolving and progressing.
It was only later that artists stuck to their chosen formula, but by then the name had stuck and any band that played that kind of music would be called Progressive eventhough they were not progressing anything themselves. Old stalwarts such as myself still like to see a bit of evolution from one album to the next - if only to refreshen the music a little, but it no longer defines what Prg music is.
It is only recently that the definition and characteristics of Progressivationnesserisms® have been written down - effectively casting them in stone - And I do not agree with that - there were no rules in the 70's and there should be none now.
Edited by darqdean - July 31 2007 at 17:12
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coleio
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Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 272
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 17:17 |
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Can this mallard be banned by any chance?
I've read every page of this topic and since he's started he's been spoiling for an argument and completely disregarding anything that show's his argument is wrong or illogical.
Look, this is a prog forum. Of course the preference in genre is going to be prog, if it was catering for all music it would've been ' the all music genre' or something along those lines. As it isn't, how about appreciating that most people here DO listen to prog and think of it as a preferential genre over others.
No one cares about money or selling out or any financial nonsense, the point is prog music isn't a very accesible genre, therefore it isn't going to be as big a money maker as RnB say.
Sooo... when a band does succumb to the desire for more money (which is usually very unfortunate), they try and make a more popular and commercial form of music (hence the selling out side), now seeing as most of us are prog fans, we won't enjoy this music as much as prog rock, and the music they make is usually not brilliant pop either, so we don't like it yes?
We prefer the prog is in short what I'm trying to say, and for that we are 'ProgSnobs' ?
Whatever you say sunshine.
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 17:30 |
Darqdean wrote:
| Believe it or not a agree with you. However, the genre got its name because the music being produced fitted the adjective - it was new, evolving and progressing.
No, the name was coined as many more that were being used as synonymous like Art Rock or Symphonic Rock, Progressive Music, etc.
It’s only a name as Modern Music, Baroque Music, etc.
It was only later that artists stuck to their chosen formula, but by then the name had stuck and any band that played that kind of music would be called Progressive eventhough they were not progressing anything themselves.
I believe the problem that caused the decay of Progressive Rock around 1974 or 1975 is that the bands progressed too much, Relayer and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway were more than the fans wanted to accept.
Both are cult albums today, but hey The Lamb was played around the world in mid empty halls because people wanted the old formula and not almost 100 minutes of something they were not able to understand.
Relayer was hard to swallow by many Yes fans, it was too radical, they expected something like Close to the Edge and they came with a Hard Prog almost Fusion with touches of Avant, it’s full of dissonances instead of the pristine clear melody that Yes was used to play.
The prove is that their next albums (ATOTT and Going For The One) were the simpler and friendlier from all their catalogue.
Old stalwarts such as myself still like to see a bit of evolution from one album to the next - if only to refreshen the music a little, but it no longer defines what Prog music is.
Of course I love to see evolution and change, it’s better if the artist keeps renewing their proposal, but it’s not mandatory to change, a band like Anglagard proved everybody that being radically close to the original proposal of Prog was the next revolution after a decade in which Prog stumbled with everything using a very bland formula supposedly created to be suitable for everybody.
It is only recently that the definition and characteristics of Progressivationnesserisms® have been written down - effectively casting them in stone - And I do not agree with that - there were no rules in the 70's and there should be none now.
I agree, those who want to be radically new must be welcomed, for example I love what Eastern Europe bands are doing, eliminating the barriers between Symphonic and Folk, they are making music with great classical Symphonic structure but adding their own ethnicity, it’s simply wonderful, almost what the Russian nationalists did in the late 1800’s.
But part of NO RULES is also making what others did but trying to make it better.
Prog has grown beyond proportions, in the 70’s most of the music released was Symphonic, some Folk, some space and stop to count, today you go to places like Proggnosis and find almost 100 sub-genres (I believe it’s too much).
There’s room for everybody, for the purists, the radicals and even the revolutionaries.
Iván
PS: It's great to talk about the real deal now that the kid has gone to sleep. |
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 17:50 |
Let me see what time is it in Scotland right now.  .
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micky
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 17:55 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
Let me see what time is it in Scotland right now.. |
hahahha *wonders what time it is in India, as I ponder where to take Raff for dinner*
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dean
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 17:56 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No, the name was coined as many more that were being used as synonymous like Art Rock or Symphonic Rock, Progressive Music, etc.
It’s only a name as Modern Music, Baroque Music, etc.
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I don't remember the terms Symphonic or Art being used that often in the 70's, at least not in the UK - but my memory is quite falable now a days.
[rant]As an ex band-manager who struggled to open the closed ears of record execs and promoters, I detest genres and classifications with a passion - they are the single most stiffling aspect of this modern need to categorise everything.[/rant]
Lamb and Relayer were my favourite Genesis and Yes albums on their release and still are.
I agree with everything else you wrote. 
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What?
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rushfan4
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 18:57 |
I have been perusing this website for a couple of months now and I have had similar observations as the original poster and judging by the responses that he got he certainly hit a nerve, which he may or may not have been digging for. I am not interested in insulting anyone that has been responding to this post, and I truly agree with the "To each his own tastes" and that we are all "entitled to our own opinions".
Although I am glad that I am not 10 or 15 years older, I can certainly appreciate and I am somewhat envious of those PA members that were around in the early to mid-seventies when the classic bands released their classic material. It would have been quite interesting to have heard and seen these bands in their hey days.
Rush and Yes are my two personal favorite prog artists. My first exposure to these bands were Limelight and Owner of a Lonely Heart, respectively. At the time, I was 10-12 years old and listening to top 40 music radio stations, and quite frankly, I didn't like either song or either band. That all changed in high school when Rush released Presto and Yes released Union. I thoroughly enjoyed both of these albums and I went and saw both of these bands in concert for the first time for these tours. My point is that both of these albums may be the most ripped on albums of these bands respectively, and yet they are ones that I thoroughly enjoyed. Which gets back to the previous post about how the music ties in to the individuals personal memories surrounding the music etc. From my "discovery" of these bands, my collection grew and I had to go out and complete their entire catalogues, and from there in researching progressive bands, I also tried out Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, etc.
With Genesis, my first exposure was also the Phil Collins led radio hit music. As a matter of fact, I remember being surprised to find out that Genesis had a progressive past. That being said, I am most familiar with the hit music (probably brain-washed from years of radio play beaten in to my head). I definitely have an appreciation for the older prog song like Cinema Show and The Music Box, but I am still able to enjoy the newer stuff too.
I guess my personal belief is that a "bad" song by a prog band is still better than 95% of the stuff released on the radio. If I have to choose between Invisible Touch and Oops I Did It Again, I am going to take Invisible Touch every time (unless we are talking videos in which case I can always mute the Oops I Did It Again video and listen to Invisible Touch). I guess that makes me a fanboy of Yes and Rush and Genesis and King Crimson and ELP, etc...
I guess it kind of pains me to see the posts on this website by people who are fans of these bands and yet consider everything after a certain date as crap or that "it sucks". Again I certainly agree to each his own and that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it still kind of pains me.
And yes, I enjoyed Open Your Eyes and saw Yes on that tour too. That tour was played in digital surround sound (supposedly a first, and I probably am not using the right technical terms) and it sounded excellent by the way. I also like both We Can't Dance and Calling All Stations.
Alright, sorry for the interruption. Please continue on with your progging.
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Tony R
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 19:00 |
coleio wrote:
Can this mallard be banned by any chance?
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we dont ban people for being fanatical about their favourite band. We do warn people for personal attacks however and people need to keep it civil. McGallard would make more friends around here if he didnt make all his posts appear that believes that he is The Word when it comes to music.Very difficult to take seriously when combined with the Genesis obsession. I mean we all love Genesis dont we? It is understandable (obvious? Inevitable?) for the more poppy albums to garner less respect - this is a Prog Rock site after all. If we were a general music site then the "snobbery" accusation would be justified, but this place does what it says on the label - we love Prog....  Just my .02. Carry on until instructed otherwise... 
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micky
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 19:37 |
Tony R wrote:
I mean we all love Genesis dont we?
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sure we do  .
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 20:02 |
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Dean
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 20:03 |
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What?
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tszirmay
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 20:34 |
In the fine prog tradition, we managed to make an EPIC 6 page (CD?) ping-pong match with a thread that has its origins in pre-Roman Egypt , for Moses' sake! We profsnobs are the most verbose, loud mouthed, long-winded, semi-pompeous, seemingly self-indignant, but "vewy, vewy funny wabbits" in the entire world of music. The best parts were the brief humour interludes from we , the stunned and awed audience , fueled by the sheer obstinacy of the two main combatants . This was our "Gladiator" screenplay. Now, where did I put my DEVO album, er....."Are we not men? We are Prog!" 
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The T
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 21:23 |
Tony R wrote:
micky wrote:
Tony R wrote:
I mean we all love Genesis dont we?
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sure we do . |
those of us that aren't just plain awkward....
Genesis are gods arent they?
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Now, if our Famous Sleeping Expert would've come after Rush, some blood would've run.... 
By the way, great thread until.. well, you now... I'm more into reading the various posts (most of those good) that in actually saying anything as my position has been stated already by others... Quite awkward that in my only participation in this thread I got caught in a melee.... 
And, I repeat: I like "And Then there were 3" more than I like "The Lamb"... (just trying to pick up another fight  )....
I used to love all music. Then for a few months-years I closed my ears and listened only to prog... then I re-opened my ears and mind and have a collection with all kinds of music (well, mostly classical, prog and other hard rock, really).... But even now I can easily recognize which my favorite big-genre is, and that's why I'm a member of this site... So I guess it's no surprise that I tend to like Relayer more than 90125, is it? We all appreciate every music for what it causes in our minds and hearts... While some may love post-hackett genesis, some don't. I kind of fall in between. And that's the great thing here: we don't HAVE to like either one side or the other or EVERYTHING...
There's no need for philosphical or scientific answers here... only a simple "matter of taste" should do...
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coleio
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Joined: February 06 2006
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 21:26 |
The T wrote:
Tony R wrote:
micky wrote:
Tony R wrote:
I mean we all love Genesis dont we?
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sure we do . |
those of us that aren't just plain awkward....
Genesis are gods arent they?
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Now, if our Famous Sleeping Expert would've come after Rush, some blood would've run....
By the way, great thread until.. well, you now... I'm more into reading the various posts (most of those good) that in actually saying anything as my position has been stated already by others... Quite awkward that in my only participation in this thread I got caught in a melee....
And, I repeat: I like "And Then there were 3" more than I like "The Lamb"... (just trying to pick up another fight )....
I used to love all music. Then for a few months-years I closed my ears and listened only to prog... then I re-opened my ears and mind and have a collection with all kinds of music (well, mostly classical, prog and other hard rock, really).... But even now I can easily recognize which my favorite big-genre is, and that's why I'm a member of this site... So I guess it's no surprise that I tend to like Relayer more than 90125, is it? We all appreciate every music for what it causes in our minds and hearts... While some may love post-hackett genesis, some don't. I kind of fall in between. And that's the great thing here: we don't HAVE to like either one side or the other or EVERYTHING...
There's no need for philosphical or scientific answers here... only a simple "matter of taste" should do... |
 Amen to that
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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Badabec
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 21:48 |
Wanorak wrote:
From the reviews of certain albums in the last few weeks you'd think these were the Regressive Rock Archives!!
Sorry, I dare to disagree: Here are several
people who are very open-minded. I think there are more reviews about
the so-called modern Prog bands than about the classic Prog bands (I
won't judge that).
The way alot of people think; the only good progressive rock is stuff
that sounds like it was recorded in 1973 or with neo-prog 1983! I mean
poor Phil Collins,
Well, after Peter Gabriel had left, Phil
Collins recorded "A Trick Of The Tail" and "Wind & Wuthering", two
excellent albums. So let us thank him. And sorry, but I do not like
this totally catchy stuff we know from Invisible Touch or Abacab.
Does that make me "regressive"? If you like it, it's alright and if I
do not like it, it's alright too. That does not make anyone of us
regressive. This whole "progressive" and "regressive" thing makes me
sick. 
If a band is good, then it is good. And if an album is good, than it is
good. And if it cannot be categorized as Progressive Rock (which is a
clear-cut term in music science and which does not only describe the
classic Prog bands of the 70s by the way) - who cares? That does not
mean that it cannot be good! And the word "good" is very subjective.
But I do not like Genesis' 80s and 90s albums. And? Do I have to feel
guilty now? No! Am I regressive because I do not like the pop era of
Genesis? No! I simply don't like it, ya understand?
Trevor Rabin,
Excellent musician, if you ask me. Though I do not like 90125 and Big Generator as much as Yes' 70s albums (maybe with the exception of Tormato), those are both albums which are competent. But unlike Close To The Edge or Tales From Topographic Oceans, 90125 and Big Generator
are only competetent albums in my eyes. I do not say they should not
change their style. Yes has often changed their style. And albums like The Ladder, Magnification or the Keys To Ascension albums are much different from Close To The Edge, Tales From Topographic Oceans or Relayer but for all that I love them too. For example I love the idea of playing with an orchestra on Magnification. But in my eyes Magnification or The Ladder are much better than 90125 or Big Generator.
To Begin with Genesis only became a great musical band after Peter Gabriel left; the same with Marillion after Fish left.
Only because they became accessible? Is that the criterion on judging music? Being accessible? How boring... 
And NO, I could not disagree more. I love Genesis' works since Trespass
and the time with Peter Gabriel was a very good time. There was a much
better coherence than after he had left (then Banks keyboards became
much more important than Hackett's guitar for example and so there was
an imbalance).
Like I said in the beginnig, A Trick Of The Tail and Wind & Wuthering
are excellent albums too, but after Hackett had left, the music became
boring in my eyes. And when Collins left and Wilson recorded Calling All Stations
with the band it did not become better. Genesis has never recovered
from Hackett's absence. Call me regressive or whatever, I do not care,
I listen to music because I like it and not because I want to be
"progressive". Accomplishing a "progressive" image is kind of
ridiculous.
Both groups started putting out more consistent, more powerful and Yes
more diverse albums after their (FAR Too) fabled leaders left.
I do not know the albums after Fish left but I really do like Marillion's albums with him as a singer.
Both Big Generator and Open your eyes are very strong albums with lots
of melody, great guitar work and much stronger vocal harmonies and Yes
heaven forbid some more accessible poppy songs.
Both, Big Generator and Open Your Eyes are good albums (I think that Open Your Eyes is a bit better than Big Generator), but in comparison to later works like the Keys To Ascension albums, The Ladder or Magnification or earlier works like Fragile, Close To The Edge, Tales From Topographic Oceans, Relayer, Going For The One etc. these albums are weak in my opinion.
Must be nice for all the prog musical wannabes to sit back and pick
apart great musicians for trying to stay alive and relevant in the
music industry. Some of you must start bands and see how long you last.
I thought you were complaining about a
"regressive" public on this site. Why do you talk about the sales
figures now? What do they have to do with a "progressive" public?
Really, nothing! You're thought-structure is illogical.
And by the way, as a Prog band I would not care if I am popular or not.
Ah well, I once played in a Prog band. I really did not care.
Maybe we should not talk about Prog-wannabes but about this kind of
wannabes who are afraid of becoming unpopular who have no feeling of
self-worth if nobody tells them how great they are (or nobody tells
them indirectly with buying their CD's). That' sick!
Ah, and anyway, you're saying that you have to adapt to the popular
style. But how can music develop if nobody tries something new and
always plays the same hits?
Progressive rock must change with the times and diversify to stay
alive; especially when the music industry is in horrific shape right
now.
Progressive Rock is changing because it is a
genre that is alive. Just see bands like Opeth, Porcupine Tree or if
you want The Mars Volta. And who cares about the music industry and its
superficial fashions.
And no you cannot adapt to most people's taste to avoid a genereal
fashion of music with a low quality. The taste of the mass wants to
listen to that kind of music. If you adapt to their taste, you won't be
better than 95% of these boring bands you can see on MTV.
Please, just make music for the sake of music and not for the sake of earning money.
Sorry if I offended anyone but some people are just stuck in the past and not open to change.
Of course these people do exist. But the great
majority of the visitors of this site is really open-minded. If there
are bands who are trying something new, these people will be the ones
who will listen to this music very intently and not the masses of stiff
listeners.
Sorry, I do not want to offend you now but many of the things you wrote were illogical and simply not true.
However, welcome at the archives. 
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Edited by Badabec - July 31 2007 at 21:56
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Mesmo a tristeza da gente era mais bela
E além disso se via da janela
Um cantinho de céu e o Redentor
- Antônio Carlos Jobim, Toquinho & Vinícius de Moraes - Carta ao Tom 74
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Prog_Traveller
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 22:47 |
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I don't normally have a problem with something that is poppy or commercial sounding as long as it's the group's idea and they aren't being pressured by the record company to put something out that will sell a lot. However, It's hard to tell what the intention was just by listening to something. Yes's 90125, for example, could be considered a "sell out" but to me it's just a band trying to survive in a musical climate that was not accepting to prog. There's also the fact that that particular group wasn't initially going to call themselves Yes but did pretty much at the last minute after Jon Anderson joined. So anyway, if something is good, well played has integrity, doesn't insult the intelligence(at least not too much like much pop and rap music seems to)then I usually don't have a problem with it. Styx is an example of a band who gets panned by many prog fans for being too poppy but to me they were never really trying to be a super complex prog kind of band but rather a mainstream rock band with some prog influences. You could probably say the same about Boston. Although I'm not a big fan of most pop music I do appreciate it if it's well done. I tend to be sympathetic of prog bands who go pop or commercial(especially Yes and Genesis since those are two of my all time favorites)because I understand their roots and I can also understand the idea that a group not only needs to survive to support themselves but also the possibililty that they can get burnt out and tired of playing the same style(prog). Not everyone gets tired of playing just prog(KC for example)and that's ok too. Ultimately, it's all about the music. If it's good, then that should be the bottom line and not how much it fits under the umbrella of prog(eventhough prog is still my favorite kind of music).
Edited by Prog_Traveller - July 31 2007 at 22:49
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 01:56 |
Rushfan4 wrote:
| I guess it kind of pains me to see the posts on this website by people who are fans of these bands and yet consider everything after a certain date as crap or that "it sucks". Again I certainly agree to each his own and that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it still kind of pains me. |
Not in my case, that's what makes us different from blind fanboys, for example a Britney fan will buy anything she releases without even having listened a note, he doesn't care if the album is good or bad or even if he likes the music, it's cool, he's a fan that's enough to buy the whole catalogue.
I like to think we are MUSIC fans not PERSONS fans, even the most stubborn ELP fan will recognize that Love Beach was not their finest moment, most will agree it's a bad album, the ones that will buy it is because they like it.
In my case I am a Genesis fan, but ATTW3, the fiirst album I was able to buy when originally released was a total disappointment, I gave them a chance with Duke, it was better but not what i expect from the band that released my favorite music and of course it got worst with time according to my taste.
I'm not a masochist so i won't buy anything by this band before listening it before and honestly Phil Collins and company have enough money already for me to pay them for something I hate.
I honestly, with a hand in the heart believe everything Genesis did after W&W sucks, so why shouldn't i say it in Prog Archives where I can speak with absolute freedom?
Rushfan4 wrote:
| I guess my personal belief is that a "bad" song by a prog band is still better than 95% of the stuff released on the radio. If I have to choose between Invisible Touch and Oops I Did It Again, I am going to take Invisible Touch every time |
Not my way of thinking, in first place I only listen certain radios that play Classic Rock or Classical Music because asking for a Prog Radio in Perú is too much, I don't care for Rap Reggaetton or Hip Hop, so I don't listen commercial radio.
In second place, i don't have to choose, because i won't even dare to listen Oops I did it Again, as a fact I never heard it complete, and even if it's pure crap, this doesn't make Invisible Touch better, it's still the terrible and boring album that i dislike, so why would I torture myself?
If i have to choose between Oops i did it Again and Invisible Touch, I choose Foxtrot, if the Cd of my car is broken and the only two musical stations play the first two aberrations, I listen news, if there's nothing else, I turn off the radio and sing..
And in third place, some prog bands have released such aberrations that it's better to forget them, try Brain Salad Perjury by ELP with their 100 Hip Hop versions of Fanfare for a Common Man, please, it's pure crap.
If there's so much great music and so little time in a life to listen all, why must we waste it in bad music by Prog bands if there's great music by Prog, Pop, Jazz, Rock etc bands?
I don't listen an album because it's better than the crappy music played in most commercial radios, I listen an album because it's good and gives me pleasure.
Thanks
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 01 2007 at 02:02
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
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Points: 4202
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 04:39 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Rushfan4 wrote:
| I guess it kind of pains me to see the posts on this website by people who are fans of these bands and yet consider everything after a certain date as crap or that "it sucks". Again I certainly agree to each his own and that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it still kind of pains me. |
Not in my case, that's what makes us different from blind fanboys, for example a Britney fan will buy anything she releases without even having listened a note, he doesn't care if the album is good or bad or even if he likes the music, it's cool, he's a fan that's enough to buy the whole catalogue. |
Not disagreeing with the rest of what you've written, but this part is incorrect. A Britney fan is likely to be a teenager who'll grow out of her music. He or she will probably start buying Coldplay, Katie Melhua, Norah Jones or some other TV advertised artist for music-uninterested young adults. Unlike fans of bands like Rush, Dream Theather, Iron Maiden etc..., this person will never buy the whole catalogue by any artist. Actual fanboys of Kylie Minogue, Robbie Williams, a boyband or even Madonna almost doesn't exist. Wanorak's basically got everything wrong here. The average Genesis or Marillion fans (like himself) are generally far too faithful and forgiving. A progfan should have dumped them as soon as they started to sound like unimaginative arenapoprock (and not even being really good at it. I'd choose Madonna before both of them, if I had too). And started looking elsewhere for new, real progressive rock instead. Progfans like Wanorak got something to learn from Britney fans, in that respect.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 08:13 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
Let me see what time is it in Scotland right now.. |
Time for some scotch, I think.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 09:10 |
rushfan4 wrote:
(trimmed post)
I guess my personal belief is that a "bad" song by a prog band is still better than 95% of the stuff released on the radio. If I have to choose between Invisible Touch and Oops I Did It Again, I am going to take Invisible Touch every time (unless we are talking videos in which case I can always mute the Oops I Did It Again video and listen to Invisible Touch). I guess that makes me a fanboy of Yes and Rush and Genesis and King Crimson and ELP, etc... |
I agree with the sentiment about 95%, but the sentiment only.  I wish I could say it were true. Many non-Prog artists have produced excellent music. I used Madonna in a previous example. She appeals to a wide range of ages, not just the little girls like Britney. We all have favorite non-Prog artists, but Prog seems to have something appealing to us all here. I like to think it is the depth and musical challenge. Prog has a long lasting effect whereas a Pop song can get old quickly, IMHO.
Being a fanboy isn't such a bad thing. Just as long as you don't go overboard with it.
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