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VanderGraafKommandöh 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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 Posted: July 27 2007 at 07:49 |
 Syzygy wrote:
Geck0 wrote:
Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent. |
Possibly a stupid question, but how do you know they're illegal immigrants? |
Good question.   I don't, but some of them might very well be. Besides, even if they're legal, they still seem to have all the latest gadgets and gizmos, which most of my friends don't have. Yet you see these same people down the Labour Exchange, or outside Wise Employment. There just seems to be a double standard to me, that's all.
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: July 27 2007 at 07:53 |
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It just means that people spend their money in different ways. if that's a political point for anyone at all then hurray for the future.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 27 2007 at 10:59 |
micky wrote:
hmmm.... I'll let you two duke it out on that end..
and take this issue on from the other end..... what people fail to realize are it is well known that it takes an act of Congress to immigrate to this country. When that is the case... no wall .... that is never going to be built anyway (the right has done enough damage to this country without making it more visibily into a police state)...is going to stem people from coming here. Again...those calling for a wall live in the same dreamland as those who the fight the so called war on terror, thinking that avoiding the root cause of problems will solve the problem. We have two solutions to the problem to eliminate illegal immigration...... become a police state and resemble the Iron Curtain or make legal immigration easy and take away any reason to come here illegally. No other choices will fix the problem. Which one do you think becomes the country we claim to be....
Face it... a wall didn't stop people in Berlin from crossing it... and they frickin shot people... do you really think a wall will stop illegal immigration. Of course you don't.... just like Iraq... you'll say you've done something to combat a problem.. and beg more time for a solution.. Time enough for those who put the damn wall up to spend their time at the public trough... thus leaving the problem for others.
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I don't understand how building a wall is equivalent to a police state. A nation without borders ceases to be a nation at all. The U.S. has a duty spelled out in Article IV Section IV of the Constitution which says : "The United States shall garuntee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion." It is already failing in the latter part of that duty and will be spitting in the face of that agreement if the borders are just opened to anyone.
A wall will most certainly limit illegal immigration. Nobody is saying it will completely stop it. The next three routes to bring about stopping it are first overturning judicial oligarchies which have stopped the citizens of California, Arizona and other border states in passing legislation that will deny welfare benefits to illegal aliens. Next, the 14th Ammendent must be clarified so that it's indisputable that anyone born on U.S. soil is not an automatic citizen. And lastly anyone here illegally, anyone here on an expired visa, must be deported.
That for the most part will eliminate much illegal immigration. Other things like catch and release policies need to be ceased too but I don't think I need to lay down a whole platform.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - July 27 2007 at 11:00
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 27 2007 at 22:04 |
WOW....it sure is tough to tell who lies on the conservative/liberal ends here 
Someone care to discuss something besides illegal immigration?
Just a question...
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2492
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Posted: July 27 2007 at 23:00 |
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How about Iraq? That oughta be fun
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magnus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 865
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Posted: July 28 2007 at 08:58 |
JJLehto wrote:
1800iareyay wrote:
She could be a bomb |
We need way tougher immigration control. We have to stop those illegal Norwegians.....I don't know how they're getting over the polar ice cap.
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Beware! I'm coming for you... and I'm bringing my pet polar bear!!
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The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes
Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 28 2007 at 11:19 |
1800iareyay wrote:
How about Iraq? That oughta be fun |
Oh man..... honestly I dont even know. Every possible idea I've heard is just terrible.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:08 |
1800iareyay wrote:
How about Iraq? That oughta be fun |
Iraq as we know it can only exist under a repressive political regime. The idea of introducing democracy to it is to ignore history. The country consists of three distinctly different people, with different religions, customs, and cultures. Nations are born of just those things, not constitutions. Without a dictator like Sadam to force them together they will split themselves apart. They do not share the bonds of history, faith, and culture to form once nation together.
Since America is in denial of this our presence there is only delaying the bloody war waiting to tear the country apart. Regardless even of that, the war has been so badly mismanaged that our troops do not know the rules of engagement and are acting with one arm tied behind their back by the Iraqi government and its ties to brutal warlords. We're fighting remenants of Sadam's regime that were left behind in pockets are we prematurely rushed into Baghdad with the hopes that if the head falls, the body will follow.
I can't say I can think of a solution, but I can do the easy part and see the mistake.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:19 |
JJLehto wrote:
1800iareyay wrote:
How about Iraq? That oughta be fun |
Oh man..... honestly I dont even know. Every possible idea I've heard is just terrible. |
I agree with you completely. It seems like impossibly bad things will happen if we stay, and even worse things will happen if we leave.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:57 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Angelo wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
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Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.
(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)
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Well yes of course it won't stop illegal immigration through those means, but when did anyone expect it to. We're supposed to have airport and seaport security to check those things. We're discussing a different issue here which is illegals crossing on the U.S.-Mexico border. |
China did block immigrants out, but that led to their falling behind to a point where only recently through the overly extreame means of Maoist polocy have become a world power again. Walls kill economy, the us needs immigrants. Let them come. Even with the wall the mongols invaded.
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Communism led to China's falling behind; now that they've begun to free their markets they're emerging as a superpower. I'm not denying that the U.S. needs immigration. It most certainly does since we don't reproduce enough to sustain our population. However, we don't need unchecked illegal immigration. We need legal immigration, and time for the melting pot to take effect and assimilation to occur. |
hold on, I didn't notice that till just now
History lesson evryone:
The Quing dinasty cut off immigration and trade, shutting down even the silk road in order to not be influenced by outside cultures. As a result when Japan attacked at the forefront of world war two the Chinese were fighting back with swards, they had never developed advanced technology as they were cut off. Maoists overthrew the Japanese and faught against other groups that wanted power. Mao, through a series of extreme polocies (that were bad ideas) built factories and began to bring China into the modern age, however all those factories were no good if you could not trade with the west, so when China began trading with the US among others and reformed their economic structure they had all of the infrastructure they needed in order to become a world power. China was a mess before communism, so was russia for that matter, dont ignore the good that the communists did because of all the evil that came with it.
edit: may have minor flaws, that was just based off my memory.
Edited by Proletariat - July 29 2007 at 22:58
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:02 |
^
I agree that a country shouldn't become ignorant of the world outside it and that cutting off its markets to the outside is incredibly dangerous. I don't see what immigrations, especially illegal has to do with any of that. Immigrants pouring into China wouldn't have openned its markets.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:02 |
Iraq solution:
get out now, deal with the flak, wait a few decades until settles.
meanwhile, defend the motherland from the reproachful attacks of all
the nations we pissed off going into Iraq.
Ha.....ha..... oh we're so f**ked.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:05 |
^
I think I know that what you suggest is the best solution, but I can't shake the feeling of guilt of breaking our promises and leaving to country to a bloodywar that we started. If only we'd never gone : ( .
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Zitro
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 11 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: July 30 2007 at 17:34 |
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How about the guilt that we're fueling terrorism around the globe due to this double-speak "war on terror", not to mention the guilt of American soldiers dying when keeping them there won't solve anything?
Yes, I understand leaving Iraq in this vulnerable state would cause some guilt and also negative international reputation, but that's worse if we keep at it.
Though honestly, I'm more worried of Cheney's desire to attack Iran with Nuclear bombs because of unproven claims of Iran is attacking our troops. Heck, Saudi Arabia is the enemy when it comes to that aspect!!
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: July 30 2007 at 20:52 |
Geck0 wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
Geck0 wrote:
Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent. |
Possibly a stupid question, but how do you know they're illegal immigrants? |
Good question.
I don't, but some of them might very well be. Besides, even if they're legal, they still seem to have all the latest gadgets and gizmos, which most of my friends don't have. Yet you see these same people down the Labour Exchange, or outside Wise Employment.
There just seems to be a double standard to me, that's all.
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Maybe the answer is to hang outside Labour Exchange or Wise Employment. They apparently know something you don't.
By the way, who are the illegal immigrants in GB? And now I'm being serious.
Edited by The Doctor - July 30 2007 at 20:54
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2492
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Posted: July 30 2007 at 20:56 |
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^ When I visited GB, I heard about a lot of Arab immigration. Perhaps that's the main group.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 10:28 |
Zitro wrote:
How about the guilt that we're fueling terrorism around the globe due to this double-speak "war on terror", not to mention the guilt of American soldiers dying when keeping them there won't solve anything?
Yes, I understand leaving Iraq in this vulnerable state would cause some guilt and also negative international reputation, but that's worse if we keep at it.
Though honestly, I'm more worried of Cheney's desire to attack Iran with Nuclear bombs because of unproven claims of Iran is attacking our troops. Heck, Saudi Arabia is the enemy when it comes to that aspect!!
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The Iran allegations scare me. Why would Iran, a country with dwindling oil reserves and a vastly inferior, military wish to pick a fight with the United States. In addition, Iran supports the pro-America regime operating in Iraq, and Iran is also at odds with the Al-Queda group operating in Iraq which warned Iran that it "faces terror attacks if it does not stop supporting Shiites in Iraq.."
Also:
"
Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, who leads the al-Qaida group known as the Islamic State in Iraq, says his fighters have been preparing for four years for war on Iran:
' We are giving the Persians, and especially the rulers of Iran, a two-month period to end all kinds of support for the Iraqi Shiite government and to stop direct and indirect intervention – otherwise a severe war is waiting for you, ' al-Baghdadi said in a 50-minute videotape."
Iran trying to start a war with the U.S. , especially at its early stages of nuclear development, doesn't make sense. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad presides over a country that hates his regime and would be volatile to revolt in the circumstance of a war.
Just doesn't seem right to me.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 10:40 |
1800iareyay wrote:
^ When I visited GB, I heard about a lot of Arab immigration. Perhaps that's the main group. |
Yes Muslims are their biggest immigrant group. Their immigrant troubles are especially troublesome not just due to the number of Muslims coming, but to the rate at which they have children. While native English have a birthrate under 2.1 children per woman (replacement level), Muslim immigrants have one around 3 children per woman. Mohammad was the No. 2 most popular name for English boys this year and will soon be No. 1
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 31 2007 at 10:52 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
1800iareyay wrote:
^ When I visited GB, I heard about a lot of Arab immigration. Perhaps that's the main group. |
Yes Muslims are their biggest immigrant group. Their immigrant troubles are especially troublesome not just due to the number of Muslims coming, but to the rate at which they have children. While native English have a birthrate under 2.1 children per woman (replacement level), Muslim immigrants have one around 3 children per woman. Mohammad was the No. 2 most popular name for English boys this year and will soon be No. 1
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This is bothersome for one reason. Muslims seem to have the most violent fundamentalist modes and am I correct in saying this faction accounts for the greatest amount of terrorist activity? I am in no way saying all Muslims are terrorists, so please don't spin that idea.
I hate to be prejudice, but to me, a high concentration of Muslims in a non-Muslim society may be a recipe for trouble.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: August 01 2007 at 22:40 |
JJLehto wrote:
WOW....it sure is tough to tell who lies on the conservative/liberal ends here
Someone care to discuss something besides illegal immigration?
Just a question... |
Let's discus the importance of being earnest. and relate that to current society.  
facts: politician's lie.
ergo:öur political system is corrupt by default.
consequence. we need to create some new form of government 
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