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The Whistler View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anti "Anit-Who Argument" Argument
    Posted: July 26 2007 at 03:37
Okay, this is gonna be a longish one, but hopefully for substance rather than rambling. Besides, it's interactive, it's fun, it's a Roger Waters opera played by Pink Floyd! Sorry, just got the Wall...
 
See, there's all this nonsense about the Who not belonging here. A lot of criticism is present because some (or many...I dunno) feel that the Who slipped in on a "If X is here, why not Y?" catch (i.e., "If Led Zep, why no Who?").
 
It seems odd to me then that a counter argument, used in jest, but still to prove a point, is, "HEY! If the Who are here for Tommy and Quad, why not Frank Sinatra? Didn't he do the first concept album ever?"
 
And, sadly, there is an ounce of point of this...er, point. But it seems to me that too often people reject concepts for what makes a prog band such based on the sound rather than the music. Are the synths Wakeman-esque? They're in! Guitar, bass and drums? ANYONE can do that! f**k 'em!
 
Which is about as clever as allowing Sinatra into the archives for cutting a concept album. Here I have assembled about six (there are more, doubtless) things that no prog band should be without. It is my point to prove that the Who are, in fact, more certified to be here than, say, a popular band that's already here. And you, no doubt, think that I'm gonna use Yes because I hate them. Well you're wrong (on both counts, not that it matters). In fact, to be a fair sport, I'll stick Tull on the counter, as well as three other artists I happen to like. Shall we?
 
Point one: Too Many Notes
Obviously, an important aspect of the progressive movement is lenghty, complex music. As it stands, I still can never quite pinpoint what makes music complex. After all, Gentle Giant is said to be complex, but to me, everything sounds like it's based on such cute 'lil vocal harmonies. Still, I guess one thing is vocality, and another how many notes you can cram into that...insert weird instrument solo. Of course, another aspect is layering, which I call "baroque" music. That is, how many lines of music can you set on top of each other? Most rock uses two, baroque music used four. So...
 
Jethro Tull: Points for speedy flute soloing...but the real strength is in the baroque part. Classic Tull is almost unbeatable there.
Moody Blues: Not particularly. The melodies are medieval sounding, sure, but hardly tricky beyond their means.
The Who: Maybe not as complex as Keith Emerson improvising, but higher than your standard pop rock. Baroque chops provided by the world's greatest rythmn section (more on that later).
Frank Sinatra: Uh...no.
 
Point two: Commercial Value
That is, does the artist care about being commercially accepted, or is he in it for the art? Prog is half output, and half input.
 
Jethro Tull: Few progsters have placed so much value in singles, but this is the same man who wrote songs dedicated to how much critics suck.
Moody Blues: They loved art and all...but every album NEEDS a hit single, damnit! Send in "Nights" again!
The Who: Once again, it's hard to talk about this with a band that's crafted so many classic out-and-out rock songs, but the label often had to pressure Pete to stop writing those damn operas, and start producing something that people would honestly listen to.
Frank Sinatra: Oh yeah, Frank was in it for the art. And the broads.
 
Point three: Album Oriented Rock
Probably the easiest to conquer; what's the artist interested in? Thematic albums? Rock operas? Or a collection of singles surrounding the hit single? This, naturally enough, spills over into cover art and theatricality.
 
Jethro Tull: The man wrote Thick as a Brick fer goshsakes...
Moody Blues: Only the greatest Sargeant Pepper rip off ever! 
The Who: Hey, it's "the only reason they're here!"
Frank Sinatra:OH! OH! The first ever! PROG ALERT!
 
Point four: Guitar, Bass and Drums
Obviously, if you're going to survive in prog, you need one thing: killer musicians. Since your band is going to be pumping out songs that last longer than two minutes, and exploit more than three chords, everyone had better be damned good.
 
Jethro Tull: Yes. Although overshadowed by Ian and Martin, everyone in the classic lineup was a crack musician.
Moody Blues: No. No fiddle faddling; they don't even have David Gilmour.
The Who: Oh yes. Entwhistle and Moon aren't legends for no reason at all. Rog inspired a generation or three. If there's a weak link, it's Pete.
Frank Sinatra: Hmm. What did he play? How many lenghty, w**ky solos did those session musicians go on?
 
Point five: Viva Variety
I'm not nessecarily talking about changing the style every record. That's just an added bonus. I mean recruiting various sources to craft your side long epic. Do you have elements of rock mixed with jazz, symphonic, classic, medieval, English music hall AND African drums? 'Cause that's pretty progressive. Note: the most important of those influences is, of course...rock. It's called prog ROCK after all. Which is how you can weed out the orchestra rock bands from the pop string bands, when you think about it...
 
Jethro Tull: Heavy metal jazz Irish flute? Not bad.
Moody Blues: Uh...orchestral and rock?
The Who: Well, er, orchestral and rock...?
Frank Sinatra: I somehow doubt Mr. Sinatra was into fusion very much.
 
Point six: The "P" Word
Because, let's face it, a prog (or related...whatever) band HAS to be pretentious. It's in the rules. It's a good thing! Nothing is nobler than pretention (under the right circumstances, of course). Pretention is what fuels Jon Anderson to use something as base as rock 'n roll to try and diagram a Hindi bathroom manual or whatever. Pretention is what makes Keith Emerson decided to play fifty synths at once, while hitting them with hammers. Pretention is what makes someone, whose band hates him, build a giant carboard wall because it's symbolic. Do you think anyone honestly got that? If they did, they would have left the stadium...
 
Jethro Tull: Oh no, there's nothing pretentious about comandeering your band to whine about your recent divorce for half an hour.
Moody Blues: Yeah...Graham Edge anyone?
The Who: One word: "Lifehouse." Pete was dragging around his first rock opera when they were still a singles band.
Frank Sinatra: In his music? Not really (although "That's Life" might qualify). His personal life? Less than it seems, but more than you'd think.
 
Okay, now fit the Sex Pistols into that.


Edited by The Whistler - July 26 2007 at 04:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 03:42
wow

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 03:45
Yeah, I haven't been in in a few days, I don't sleep very well, and I like avoiding my personal responsibilities. Bite me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 03:57





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 04:05
Nicely put TW, spoilt only by the Moody Blues bashing. Personally, I think the way you have used them to make your point is misleading and misinformed, reflecting your personal tastes rather than the fact. Pity, what you say otherwise makes a lot of sense.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 04:08

Que? I LOVE the Moody Blues; Days sticks out as one of my personal favorite albums. I just wanted to point out that the some bands that are here aren't as "proggy" as everyone thinks, at least, as balanced by bands that aren't here.

By the by, you should have seen it before the edit. Sarcasm don't work so good o're the internet when you've sworn off smileys...

"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 04:59
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:






 
indeed
LOLStern%20SmileLOL
 
 
 
 
 
That settles it, Whistler's arguments are definitely valid to have The Who as Proto-prog-related.
 
 
 
TongueBig%20smile


Edited by Sean Trane - July 26 2007 at 05:05
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 06:41
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:






 
indeed
LOLStern%20SmileLOL
 
 
 
 
 
That settles it, Whistler's arguments are definitely valid to have The Who as Proto-prog-related.
 
 
 
TongueBig%20smile


LOLLOLLOL Man oh man ...

I think you missed the 7th point, Whistler: it's about Bells & Whistles....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 10:43
Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

Yeah, I haven't been in in a few days, I don't sleep very well, and I like avoiding my personal responsibilities. Bite me.


Mr Whistler, you are most respected forum veteran in my book, and i do realize that you want to address this problem of proto-prog groups standing in the spotlight, but yet, i do hope that as a real gentleman in the most deeply sensation of the word, sir, you could let the big audience decide if they love Who more than, let's say, Deep Purple or Jethro Tull, since it is of our most fundamental rights to have freedom to make our own judgement, in no way to diminish the value of great pioneers, and for sure not to criticize yours, but just to make this one big huge proggressive drunken tiriad of words and not even being the native speaker of English Shakespearean language in the first place, but just to aknowledge the very spirit of the foundations, in regards to overlong neo-intelligent statements that even the original scripture is not quite sure know of what he is talking about... Peace brother! LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 10:45
I think i was trying to say "sponk". Clap

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 13:25
Originally posted by meinmatrix meinmatrix wrote:

Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

Yeah, I haven't been in in a few days, I don't sleep very well, and I like avoiding my personal responsibilities. Bite me.


Mr Whistler, you are most respected forum veteran in my book, and i do realize that you want to address this problem of proto-prog groups standing in the spotlight, but yet, i do hope that as a real gentleman in the most deeply sensation of the word, sir, you could let the big audience decide if they love Who more than, let's say, Deep Purple or Jethro Tull, since it is of our most fundamental rights to have freedom to make our own judgement, in no way to diminish the value of great pioneers, and for sure not to criticize yours, but just to make this one big huge proggressive drunken tiriad of words and not even being the native speaker of English Shakespearean language in the first place, but just to aknowledge the very spirit of the foundations, in regards to overlong neo-intelligent statements that even the original scripture is not quite sure know of what he is talking about... Peace brother! LOL

 
So you deciding what is prog or not base on what you love?  Geez.  I love Hall and Oates.  Can we get them in PA?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 13:57
Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

 
Okay, now fit the Sex Pistols into that.
 
Point one: Too Many Notes. The Sex Pistols qualify. The requirement is not to have a certain number of notes, but TOO MANY notes... Once you've heard 1 minute of a Sex Pistols songs, you begin to wonder "can this be over?" So, every Sex Pistols song gas TOO MANY notes....
 
Point two: Commercial Value Come on! "Anarchy in The UK" was even covered by Megadeth! And they talk about the Queen!
 
Point three: Album Oriented Rock f you hear NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS from start to end, you'lll notice a deep relationship within each song, a smooth flow that seems to make the album walk towards its conclusion in a rather optimistic, trascendental way.
 
Point four: Guitar, Bass and Drums Well, they DO have Guitar, bass and drums..... and hey!! They had SID VICIOUS, who couldn't play a simple scale if he wished to but who had attitude and a great skill for other "low-key" instruments...And Johhny Rotten... his voice is a delight for sore ears...
 
Point five: Viva Variety Maybe the Pistols are not that strong in this department... But the lack of musical variety is made up by the huge lyrical variety.....
 
 
Point six: The "P" Word ? Confused ? Pretentiousness?? Well, could a band be more pretentious than to try to succed with the simplest, most rudimentary music ever? They qualify.
 
PA NEEDS THE SEX PISTOLS....
 
Tongue
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 15:01
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

 
Okay, now fit the Sex Pistols into that.
 
Point one: Too Many Notes. The Sex Pistols qualify. The requirement is not to have a certain number of notes, but TOO MANY notes... Once you've heard 1 minute of a Sex Pistols songs, you begin to wonder "can this be over?" So, every Sex Pistols song gas TOO MANY notes....
 
Point two: Commercial Value Come on! "Anarchy in The UK" was even covered by Megadeth! And they talk about the Queen!
 
Point three: Album Oriented Rock f you hear NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS from start to end, you'lll notice a deep relationship within each song, a smooth flow that seems to make the album walk towards its conclusion in a rather optimistic, trascendental way.
 
Point four: Guitar, Bass and Drums Well, they DO have Guitar, bass and drums..... and hey!! They had SID VICIOUS, who couldn't play a simple scale if he wished to but who had attitude and a great skill for other "low-key" instruments...And Johhny Rotten... his voice is a delight for sore ears...
 
Point five: Viva Variety Maybe the Pistols are not that strong in this department... But the lack of musical variety is made up by the huge lyrical variety.....
 
 
Point six: The "P" Word ? Confused ? Pretentiousness?? Well, could a band be more pretentious than to try to succed with the simplest, most rudimentary music ever? They qualify.
 
PA NEEDS THE SEX PISTOLS....
 
Tongue
 
 


Point seven: Bells and whistles - that's got to be needles, pins and leather for the sex pistols Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 21:28
Well, this certainly has had an interesting impact. I shall try to defend myself against everything that's come along...
 
Mr. T: I'll assume that was a joke, since the way you fit the Pistols into my structure seemed reliant more on guessing at the meaning behind the titles of my arguments rather than actually reading them.
 
To those who think I'm suggesting this JUST because I like the Who...I also like Frank Sinatra. And the Moody Blues. How come I didn't fight for their progressivity? My only point was that some bands we think of as prog for environmental reasons aren't as proggy as bands that we, likewise, don't think of as being very proggy.
 
meinmatrix: Uh, thanks?


Edited by The Whistler - July 26 2007 at 21:30
"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2007 at 23:34
Originally posted by The Whistler The Whistler wrote:

 
Mr. T: I'll assume that was a joke, since the way you fit the Pistols into my structure seemed reliant more on guessing at the meaning behind the titles of my arguments rather than actually reading them.
 
 
 
Oh no!!! Angry That was DEAD SERIOUS!!! Angry
 
WinkLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2007 at 03:57
See? I TOLD you sarcasm was easier with smileys...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2007 at 00:50
Hilarious post. The Who is proto-prog, dammit!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 00:35

Well ill just go ahead and say for the people like me...i kinda don't care. Smile. Leave em' on the site, don't, who cares. At least they have a good drummer, reason enough for me!

1 Chronicles 13:7-9

Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 00:39
Uh, the BEST drummer to ever drive his car into a swimming pool!
 
And...does anyone else notice that Jethro Tull ringtone ads tend to follow me around?
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