Should ProgArchives turn into ProgMusicAr

clarke2001 wrote: Dear Ivan...there's no point of doing the vivisection of one's text...this was not my statement written for the court! You are taking things too literally, and I guess you're not reading between the lines, that's way you missed the point I guess.. Maybe you didn't miss the point...but in that case...you opinion resembles a certain "purism" of prog on this site as an ideal, which I respect, but that condition is long gone...!!! Is there a point shouting "don't let prog-related in" if it's already in? The thing is...I guess...you don't want any more prog-related bands, this was enough...am I right? We are halfway there. Not adding Who, Cream and having all these bands already is hilarious, unreasonable...the condition right now is the best moment to lose credibility. So let the damn prog-related bands in, or kick them all out. What else? I said: This is, to me, more than a web site. This is a library of prog knowledge, the most comprehensive in the world. And I love to think about prog-related category as a section of some additional information about progressive rock in general. It's knowledge. It's simple as that.   And you replied: Lets add a literature, a Painting, a games, a politics, a religion, etc forum, it's all knowledge...this is not lñogical, because it's a Prog site not a general music site, there's Allmusic for that. And I am saying now: YES!!! Let's add articles about Mussorgsky, Roger Dean, Robert Moog!!! Of course not like band entries, just like some essays! Wouldn't you be glad to learn? Which novel influenced Genesis' "The Return Of The Giant Hogweed" more? John Wyndham's "Day of The Triffids" or John Christopher's "No Blade Of Grass"? That is not  Knowledge not related with Prog, that's is knowledge RELATED TO PROG. And nobody is doing that (me neither) just to keep some fanboys happy. Do you really believe in that, Ivan? This is one sentence that hurts me deep:That's the problem, when people worry about NO PROG BANDS, the real Prog bands are left behind and that's wrong. Do you really think I am worrying about non-prog bands more than Prog bands, Ivan?!? If so, I suggest you to check the thread named Clarke's list  in Collaborator section. There are 1750 reasons to prove you the opposite.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 23 2007 at 15:01

Not I don't do succeed to understand because themselves they continue to include bands/ artists that with the Prog hi the center nothing and leave themselves outside (often because comes deepened the knowledge) bands/ artists that produced also only one or two album 100% Prog in their discograophy!!! 

It does I should wait for me, still?  All the "Technical thrash" only because technical and complex?

Megadeth, Anthrax, Metallica, Testament, Extrema, Necrodeath, Exciter, Exodus... Are Prog? For me... No!!!

And Iron Maiden? For me... No!!!

And, unfortunately the obscure Prog bands/ artists will stay for always obscure... Proper what PA should promote!!! 

Mandrakeroot wrote: Not I don't do succeed to understand because themselves they continue to include bands/ artists that with the Prog hi the center nothing and leave themselves outside (often because comes deepened the knowledge) bands/ artists that produced also only one or two album 100% Prog in their discograophy!!!  It does I should wait for me, still?  All the "Technical thrash" only because technical and complex? Megadeth, Anthrax, Metallica, Testament, Extrema, Necrodeath, Exciter, Exodus... Are Prog? For me... No!!! And Iron Maiden? For me... No!!! And, unfortunately the obscure Prog bands/ artists will stay for always obscure... Proper what PA should promote!!!

there are two schools to that train of thought Mandy....

focus in on a artists main claim to fame  or how they are perceived out there by the unwashed musical masses. 

or...

since this is a prog site.... focus on the prog.  Not the artists.... that is why we add artists who did prog albums..... not prog artists that did albums. 

in the end.. it is the music.. not the labels thrown around that matters.

For example..what we have been discussing...  I Pooh....  IF they did a prog album... they should be here.... who gives a damn what they did later.  This is ProgArchives as some people have sardonically noted as they wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness... yet refuse artists who did prog albums.. because... what.... others have labelled them as non prog.  That is bullsh*t on so many levels it isn't funny.

let me add... if the elitists.. and they are obviously here... had their way... which they don't ..yet can't get it through their heads and just accept it.....

there would prog albums... great prog albums.. that wouldn't be included on this site.

If I'm the only one that thinks that is a narrow shortsighted way to run a website... then fine.  I will be the only one hahhaha.

Mandrakeroot wrote: Mah, I should say that I am about to include here all those bands/ artists that did something of 100% Prog. Always, however, reported to the period in which you are they operated. Since certain artists come seen like traitors because left the Prog (see Ivano Fossati) I believe that for you are ever there it will be place.  The opposite step (Iron Maiden?  Metallica?) it is instead an approval for the inclusion. No ever it thought that Ivano Fossati have left the Prog for be able to survive in the world of the music?  Or because attracted from other shapes of music?  Why do I see mores Prog in a disc of Franco Battiato of 80's that in much inclusive groups in PA. Other speech: obscure bands. Certainly there are a lot of reasons because a band is obscure. And one it is the fact that there are too bands/ artists non Prog (and therefore easier to understand) in PA.  Today all it have to be easy (in every sense) and they do not seek themselves more obscure bands/ artists.  When Erik has open its thread on the Symphonic Prog has immediately had a large success.  I noted that the Italian Prog hadn't a valid promotion and I have open the mine first thread.  Totally insuccess. I began again all the promotion.  Resulted. ..:  Worst of first.  In fact I succeeded to do to hate the Italian Prog and even more the obscure bands/ artists that were introduced.  The result is that Andrea Cortese introduces them (because I don't be able) then public the review and... no that something tell me. I believe, or rather, that for someone all this increases the hatred towards the Italian Prog. And, so, there are bands/ artists introduced from almost 4/5 months with one review (the mine!!!). And every new disc from the Italy is hated!!!  But PA should not serve to promote proper the obscure Prog bands? Instead it doesn't promote nothing.  Or rather...  It promotes band not Prog (that between the other the Prog do not know not even thing is!!!). I believe, without offense (or rather it is a merit), that the sole luck of Erik is that collaborates with another internet site that promotes the Prog (that iyes!!!)...  because otherwise it has been at my level!!!

first speech.... meh... no one sees people like Fossati as traitors hahhaha.  We have a simple task Mandy... to determine if something is prog or not....  Sure some idiot militants will take the 'if not prog then sh*t' way of thinking.  I love Battiato's 80's albums and find more creativity and quality in them then all of Genesis's more celebrated output put together. The point is ...the problem here has been and always will be... what is prog and what is not.  We all see prog differently... when people realize that...things would move smoother here. That is why I dislike the current genre team situation as I do.  That is another subject though..

second speech... obscure bands...

NO... that is not the reason that bands are obscure here.  There is little space in these pages devoted to what you call non-prog groups.  A vast majority of reviews are of prog groups.. a majority of the discussion....errr... musical discussion is on prog groups. Bands are obscure being people are not exposed to them or have heard them. They remain obscure for two reasons.... desire to stick with the known... and the fact that those albums are not cheap Mandy. We both know that.  Let's face it.. excepting those who illegally get their albums...it takes a devoted prog-head to shell out bucks just to be a well rounded prog fan.  As I told Erik earlier in this thread... who gets his albums to review from a business arrangement..... you can not reach everyone... but take pride in those you DO reach. 

Listen.... might some people be turned of by the way you promote RPI.  Stuff 'em.  I for one enjoy them more than the endless polls about the same old sh*t that everyone has heard a thousand times in two thousand different (yet same) polls.  That is the stuff that ruins the site... those who complain about the RPI promotion...  simply are kids would would in turn be bitching about the same old Genesis, DT, and Yes poll. 

As I said in that thread Mandy... the job you have taken upon yourself is to promote the music.  Not enough do that.. and you do it damn well.  You and Erik ... have been the most active... by far.. promoters of the prog here.  But you can't expect to reach everyone here.  I never have... but I've taken great pride in the members here who have gotten into it through me.  You just have to take things like this in baby steps I guess hahahha.

For micky: obscure bands speech:

What I expressed it is only one my idea.  Nevertheless it is undeniable than just introduced the Iron Maiden had a such mass of reviews that...  I don't know...  They removed a lot of space to true Prog Band...

...Undeniable it is that I noted that a lot they confuse the sub genre of Prog RPI/ ISP with the IP (Italian Prog) movement  and don't accept its presence in PA.  They should do the same thing with the Canterbury...  But... it is much weird (or the bewilder is my mind?) they hate only the ISP/ RPI!!! 

Besides...  Besides it is true...  Between me and Erik the differences are those that already I cited.  And to me also it can go well.  But it is not an easy thing to accept that for too much it is so...  Perhaps I should make to meet my thread in that of Erik? No!, Because until the ISP/ RPI will have autonomous life is just so.


For... ALL:

We do not be able, nevertheless, to deny that the purpose of PA is to promote the Prog music! ...  Also because if you say "Prog Music" is by now clear to talk about Prog, that of Yes, GG, JT, VDGG, Genesis, DT, Marillion, PFM, Banco, New Trolls, Khan,Rocky's Filj, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Soft Machine, Cynic, Can, Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, Amon Duul, Porcupine Tree... It should be understood this.  Instead...  It's true... Here I learn that the Metallica are Prog metal...  And Prog Metal are also Death, certain Black Metal bands... And not Jimy Hemdrix, The Cream... And that one 100% Prog band like Wishbone Ash are prog related...

...Perhaps those that they think it so they come from another world!  But... it be able to say us where it is found that we go to live us?

Edited by Mandrakeroot - June 24 2007 at 10:00

Mandy - taking a break from my Italian lessons hahhahah... going slowly..struggling with all the stress rising and stress dropping hahhah.

mama mia...

for me...

the thing was Iron Maiden was but a temporary thing.... and I personally  think some people stood to be educated that all prog-metal is not growling vocals, and non-existant bass but that's another subject.   I think they were a perfect fit here. and Metallica is as well (having thought about that some recently) Again....I digress....

As I told you in private when we opened up shop....some people here will not agree with RPI .and having the damn ISP moniker on the main page doesn't help at all. It confuses people...we will just live with it until it is changed.  Not everyone accepts Canterbury either... they wonder why it is or should be seperate from J-R. Some people think all of these groups fit into nice pretty musical holes. When those grouping are purely subjective it makes for a mess.  We've done our part to help clean the site up and keep it orderly for those who are interested in Italian prog. As I told someone once... people come looking for the Italian prog.. not symphonic Italian prog.. if so.. they would have noticed that before we came here Mandy.... many of those groups WEREN'T symphonic. We just made the sub more accurate.. and  made things easier for people to explore the obscure ones. Keep up the work promoting the RPI, all we can you.. all you can do is make people aware.  It's up to them to check it out if they want.

for all....

they may come from another world Mandy... but always look at it from the other way around... to those people... you are coming from another world.  Unless prog is tightly defined... by the owners...  no one's view of prog should.. . or does reign supreme. The owners did get that part right by making this an inclusive site.. where everyone's opinion is taken into account.


Edited by micky - June 24 2007 at 10:45

Why not "progmusicandcrostinirecipesarchives"?...

clarke2001 wrote: [ Many thanks, Andu. You interpreted it in much better way that I am able to do. As for the other issues: It seem that the major problem (well, certainly one of them) is which path prog-related (and unavoidable, the entire site) should go. People are not only debating about for vs. against issue, sometimes if both sides are not against, they're arguing about the amount - that is, where to draw the line, and that could be a very bitter topic. of course it's a very bitter topic... that's why the admins control it.. .and and the amount of them.  Few to any people push for increased admissions, I suggested the Who (for PP) like 6 months ago.. and when they get to it.. they get to deciding on it....but some persist in fighting the fight which was already lost and that is not adding them at all. That's where it is bitter hahhaha. However, I'm still thinking that the inclusion of bigger number of prog-related bands won't hurt PA. Au contraire. I won't repeat my reasons why I think so, I explained in my previous posts, perhaps in a too "poetic" way. of course it won't hurt.... most people here know it.. (As a sidenote, I don't think Police should be here, but I noticed members suggesting them for PR more than once) Anyway, I think we agree when a say that every inclusion should be examined thoughtfully, 200% in the case of prog-related. that again is why the admins do it.. and since they don't get paid for their time hahaha.. the process is slow But I also think that for every prog-related band at least 100 prog bands should be added. You may call me a hypocrite, saying that I care more about Prog bands than PR, and wasting my time on countless debates on forum. While I'm writing this, I could have write two reviews, or one biography, or add one album or two...but that's not only the case with me I guess. hahahhah.. isn't that the truth.. in the time I have spent in this thread.... I could have added the bands that I will be adding across several sub-genres. In due time I guess... It's a sad thing: I noticed more than once that our admins/colabs are saying something like XYZ band should be added to prog-related, but now it's not the appropriate moment. Appropriate moment? I understand that urge, but isn't that sad? Instead of people collaborating on this site have to worry only about music...but no...they have to worry about  politics too... ahh... that is the dirty secret of PA's.... the politics behind the scenes...  I guess it is a microcosm of life.. and to be expected. I had to politic and turn a simple thing like meerly renaming an existing sub-genre into a full blown court case because of some people's interference... and yes.. politics due to the fief like nature of the various sub-genres. Site's policy should be re-evaulated and defined once for all...otherwise the major tension will be reluctant approval of PR's existance, and even expansion, but it will always stay between some kind of curtains, or fig's leaf, you name it. We do not deserve that  tension, none of our hard-working collaborators do, we don't need it on the web site with huge popularity and good reputation. that is something personally I'm working on actually To the hell with all that. Ivan, thanks for pointing out and lighting some issues, and many thanks for your feedback about the list of prog bands! I'll PM you as soon as I gather complete, useful data for some symphonic bands that deserve to be introduced first... that's the sprit.

Other present strangeness in PA: FAIRPORT CONVENTION!!!

If are present in a Prog site should be included in the Prog Folk...  Otherwise they should not be included!!!  (At present they are included like Prog Related!!!) 


Edited by Mandrakeroot - June 24 2007 at 11:34