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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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 Posted: June 18 2007 at 04:28 |
 IVNORD wrote:
Just to make sure I hope I didn't upset you by speaking of 9/11 and hope you don't think I used it in terms of getting under your skin.
I don’t really wonder why 9/11 happened. But I don’t think your innuendo that we interfere in others’ affairs reflects the reality fully. First, the notion that the US is exploiting the entire world while enjoying a glass of brandy and smoking a cigar as you learnt from political cartoons is not exactly right. Our wealth and riches don’t fall from the sky. Never said the US did not work towards those riches, but the cigar should be from Cuba
We work our collective ass off to get the benefits we have. Once I talked to two saleswomen in Rome about our work habits telling them how I get up at 5:15 in the morning to leave my house at 5:55 to get to work by 8 am. They were in total disbelief while yawning slightly as it was quite an early hour for them at 10 in the morning, probably anticipating the midday siesta. In Iceland, a nice working couple absolutely couldn’t understand why it was a big deal for us to arrange for a 3 (consecutive) week vacation to travel thru Scandinavia as they have a mandatory 6-week in Iceland. And it’s in the summer only; two more weeks come in the winter (sure thing, it's cold and dark, you need a vacation). Just as an impromptu, I don't think theUS model of vacation with 10 days a year is a model to follow. While I do think that Scandinavian and the French have maybe a little too much holidays (never thought I'd say THAT!!! ), the idea of having just two weeks is incredibly horizon-less >> I suffered from having only three weeks in Canada.
In Oslo I couldn’t get anything for breakfast at 7 am as everything was closed (mind you, a European capital on a weekday?). >>> You mention extremes, there are plenty of places in Paris, Brussels, London (even in small cities) where breakfast is serrved from 5:30 AM. Mind you, you're right that in some places it is indeed a bit more difficult: the Dutch refuse to work anything but normal working hours, leaving the shift work to the immigrants. My neighbour has been on pogey for over two years as he refused tons of jobs, because they weren't the right hours or too far from his places. I think he just found something (coffee salesman from the looks of his van) in the region.
We get what we get because we work hard. And along the way the rest of the world benefits too, directly and indirectly. We produce enough food to be self sustained and give away plenty. There are a few horror stories about how the western nations (not just US) produce food excedents so cheap (and usually bad quality) that they dump it on third world countries markets (frozen chickens for example) that the local growers can possibly compete and go out of business
We create new technologies, which we gladly share with the rest of the world. >> Indeed, Gates and the Microsoft monopoly is definitely worth a Microsoftgates
We provide security to our European allies, so you could divert the funds you would have otherwise spent on defense to enjoy your socialist welfare states. >> Well, we'll never thank the US enough for havinbg intervened in WWII, but I'm not so sure I appreciate their role in the Cold War (although I'd have hated to become Soviet satellit
But of course, it all comes with a price. We sell you all the stuff we make but you have to give us something in return. In case of Venezuaela (or the Arab countries) it’s oil, Brazil – coffee, etc. (Belgium – chocolate? >>> beers )
Your insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. >> You don't understand, they kill projects into the egg. You try breaking up the big three's fruit monopoly (Chiquita, Dole, Del Monte) >> you get a price war or boycotts, the weaker ones getting killers sent to their homes, if you start becoming encumbrent.
The market price of cocoa cannot be the same as that of a PC – one grows on trees, the other is a feat of engineering. So your insinuations that we have to give something for free to care for the world are goundless – why should we give away what we break our neck for? And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us? I wouldn't say nobody cares for the US, partly because they are unavoidable >> I just wish they would be more equitable in the way they do things (and not show China how they do, because these guys are learning fast and the sheer size of their internal market is likely to create BUST for the third world), it would solve much problems into this planet's welfare.
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Edited by Sean Trane - June 18 2007 at 09:11
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 18 2007 at 16:10 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Just to make sure I hope I didn't upset you by speaking of 9/11 and hope you don't think I used it in terms of getting under your skin. I have a pretty thick skin, don't worry. It had a shade of a hint that we've deserved it, but your politically correct statement followed (you're so nice and careful). THough the perception that the US sucks all the juices out of the poor third world is the base for the hatred.
I don’t really wonder why 9/11 happened. But I don’t think your innuendo that we interfere in others’ affairs reflects the reality fully. First, the notion that the US is exploiting the entire world while enjoying a glass of brandy and smoking a cigar as you learnt from political cartoons is not exactly right. Our wealth and riches don’t fall from the sky. Never said the US did not work towards those riches, but the cigar should be from Cuba You would be surprised to see the US market flooded with cigars from Honduras, Dominican Rep, Nicaragua. THey support Fidel but the market economy dictates otherwise.
We work our collective ass off to get the benefits we have. Once I talked to two saleswomen in Rome about our work habits telling them how I get up at 5:15 in the morning to leave my house at 5:55 to get to work by 8 am. They were in total disbelief while yawning slightly as it was quite an early hour for them at 10 in the morning, probably anticipating the midday siesta. In Iceland, a nice working couple absolutely couldn’t understand why it was a big deal for us to arrange for a 3 (consecutive) week vacation to travel thru Scandinavia as they have a mandatory 6-week in Iceland. And it’s in the summer only; two more weeks come in the winter (sure thing, it's cold and dark, you need a vacation). Just as an impromptu, I don't think theUS model of vacation with 10 days a year is a model to follow. I've never said I like it either but that's the way it is. THe US capitalism is just the most efficient (but dehumanized) machine in the world. I may admire the structure and inner working of its mechanism, but I hardly enjoy the way it breaks you and grinds you. While I do think that Scandinavian and the French have maybe a little too much holidays (never thought I'd say THAT!!!), the idea of having just two weeks is incredibly horizon-less >> I suffered from having only three weeks in Canada.
In Oslo I couldn’t get anything for breakfast at 7 am as everything was closed (mind you, a European capital on a weekday?). >>> You mention extremes, there are plenty of places in Paris, Brussels, London (even in small cities) where breakfast is serrved from 5:30 AM. Mind you, you're right that in some places it is indeed a bit more difficult: the Dutch refuse to work anything but normal working hours, leaving the shift work to the immigrants. My neighbour has been on pogey for over two years as he refused tons of jobs, because they weren't the right hours or too far from his places. I think he just found something (coffee salesman from the looks of his van) in the region. Socialism makes planty of room for abuse
We get what we get because we work hard. And along the way the rest of the world benefits too, directly and indirectly. We produce enough food to be self sustained and give away plenty. There are a few horror stories about how the western nations (not just US) produce food excedents so cheap (and usually bad quality) that they dump it on third world countries markets (frozen chickens for example) that the local growers can possibly compete and go out of business
I really meant the humanitarian aid. Although much of it is stolen and re-sold to the hungry, it's a shame. But for us it's more of a PR action - it will rot otherwise, we can't consume it.
We create new technologies, which we gladly share with the rest of the world. >> Indeed, Gates and the Microsoft monopoly is definitely worth a Microsoftgates You guys took him by the balls, don't complain. But the fact is the man is bright and he deserves his wealth
We provide security to our European allies, so you could divert the funds you would have otherwise spent on defense to enjoy your socialist welfare states. >> Well, we'll never thank the US enough for havinbg intervened in WWII, but I'm not so sure I appreciate their role in the Cold War (although I'd have hated to become Soviet satellit In both cases the US protected its markets (sorry for spoiling your idyllic view). It wasn't as pronounced in WWII as during the Cold war, but it wasn't just because the Europeans smile nicely.
But of course, it all comes with a price. We sell you all the stuff we make but you have to give us something in return. In case of Venezuaela (or the Arab countries) it’s oil, Brazil – coffee, etc. (Belgium – chocolate? >>> beers I like Stella Artois, good beer. Once they brought me a dark Belgian beer in Quebec, it was good but I forgot the name)
Your insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. >> You don't understand, they kill projects into the egg. You try breaking up the big three's fruit monopoly (Chiquita, Dole, Del Monte) >> you get a price war or boycotts, the weaker ones getting killers sent to their homes, if you start becoming encumbrent. Here's another point. Even if you pay the growers the "fair" price, the middlemen chain is still there, so the price of the commodity goes up and that brings all other prices up (oil is a better example here). Percentage-wise, the grower will be only numbers-rich and have to pay much more for everything else. Like the Italians or Turks - everyone's a millionaire, but a cup of coffee costs 10,000 Liras. Only when the global E needs those people to become consumers, only then a machine picking coffee beans will be introduced, so the growers could be used for something else.
The market price of cocoa cannot be the same as that of a PC – one grows on trees, the other is a feat of engineering. So your insinuations that we have to give something for free to care for the world are goundless – why should we give away what we break our neck for? And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us? I wouldn't say nobody cares for the US, partly because they are unavoidable you're at it again you moron>> I just wish they would be more equitable in the way they do things (and not show China how they do, because these guys are learning fast and the sheer size of their internal market is likely to create BUST for the third world), it would solve much problems into this planet's welfare. theu cant be more equitable, see above
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 18 2007 at 18:09 |
IVNORD wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Just to make sure I hope I didn't upset you by speaking of 9/11 and hope you don't think I used it in terms of getting under your skin. I have a pretty thick skin, don't worry. It had a shade of a hint that we've deserved it, but your politically correct statement followed (you're so nice and careful). THough the perception that the US sucks all the juices out of the poor third world is the base for the hatred.
I don’t really wonder why 9/11 happened. But I don’t think your innuendo that we interfere in others’ affairs reflects the reality fully. First, the notion that the US is exploiting the entire world while enjoying a glass of brandy and smoking a cigar as you learnt from political cartoons is not exactly right. Our wealth and riches don’t fall from the sky. Never said the US did not work towards those riches, but the cigar should be from Cuba You would be surprised to see the US market flooded with cigars from Honduras, Dominican Rep, Nicaragua. THey support Fidel but the market economy dictates otherwise.
We work our collective ass off to get the benefits we have. Once I talked to two saleswomen in Rome about our work habits telling them how I get up at 5:15 in the morning to leave my house at 5:55 to get to work by 8 am. They were in total disbelief while yawning slightly as it was quite an early hour for them at 10 in the morning, probably anticipating the midday siesta. In Iceland, a nice working couple absolutely couldn’t understand why it was a big deal for us to arrange for a 3 (consecutive) week vacation to travel thru Scandinavia as they have a mandatory 6-week in Iceland. And it’s in the summer only; two more weeks come in the winter (sure thing, it's cold and dark, you need a vacation). Just as an impromptu, I don't think theUS model of vacation with 10 days a year is a model to follow. I've never said I like it either but that's the way it is. THe US capitalism is just the most efficient (but dehumanized) machine in the world. I may admire the structure and inner working of its mechanism, but I hardly enjoy the way it breaks you and grinds you. While I do think that Scandinavian and the French have maybe a little too much holidays (never thought I'd say THAT!!!), the idea of having just two weeks is incredibly horizon-less >> I suffered from having only three weeks in Canada.
In Oslo I couldn’t get anything for breakfast at 7 am as everything was closed (mind you, a European capital on a weekday?). >>> You mention extremes, there are plenty of places in Paris, Brussels, London (even in small cities) where breakfast is serrved from 5:30 AM. Mind you, you're right that in some places it is indeed a bit more difficult: the Dutch refuse to work anything but normal working hours, leaving the shift work to the immigrants. My neighbour has been on pogey for over two years as he refused tons of jobs, because they weren't the right hours or too far from his places. I think he just found something (coffee salesman from the looks of his van) in the region. Socialism makes planty of room for abuse
We get what we get because we work hard. And along the way the rest of the world benefits too, directly and indirectly. We produce enough food to be self sustained and give away plenty. There are a few horror stories about how the western nations (not just US) produce food excedents so cheap (and usually bad quality) that they dump it on third world countries markets (frozen chickens for example) that the local growers can possibly compete and go out of business
I really meant the humanitarian aid. Although much of it is stolen and re-sold to the hungry, it's a shame. But for us it's more of a PR action - it will rot otherwise, we can't consume it.
We create new technologies, which we gladly share with the rest of the world. >> Indeed, Gates and the Microsoft monopoly is definitely worth a Microsoftgates You guys took him by the balls, don't complain. But the fact is the man is bright and he deserves his wealth. Something I have to disagree partially on. While in all truth the man IS a genius, there are many geniuses and hardworkers out there that deserve much of the money Gates is earning. The problem with extreme capitalism is that indeed monopolization kills any chance for others to compete, and accumulating all the richness in the world is not very sane to say the least. I find the extremes very unhealthy to say the least. And people here in Venezuela can hardly buy original Microsoft programs because they cost at least half as much as a new PC. A bit of a money monger
We provide security to our European allies, so you could divert the funds you would have otherwise spent on defense to enjoy your socialist welfare states. >> Well, we'll never thank the US enough for havinbg intervened in WWII, but I'm not so sure I appreciate their role in the Cold War (although I'd have hated to become Soviet satellit In both cases the US protected its markets (sorry for spoiling your idyllic view). It wasn't as pronounced in WWII as during the Cold war, but it wasn't just because the Europeans smile nicely.
But of course, it all comes with a price. We sell you all the stuff we make but you have to give us something in return. In case of Venezuaela (or the Arab countries) it’s oil, Brazil – coffee, etc. (Belgium – chocolate? >>> beers I like Stella Artois, good beer. Once they brought me a dark Belgian beer in Quebec, it was good but I forgot the name)
Your insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. >> You don't understand, they kill projects into the egg. You try breaking up the big three's fruit monopoly (Chiquita, Dole, Del Monte) >> you get a price war or boycotts, the weaker ones getting killers sent to their homes, if you start becoming encumbrent. Here's another point. Even if you pay the growers the "fair" price, the middlemen chain is still there, so the price of the commodity goes up and that brings all other prices up (oil is a better example here). Percentage-wise, the grower will be only numbers-rich and have to pay much more for everything else. Like the Italians or Turks - everyone's a millionaire, but a cup of coffee costs 10,000 Liras. Only when the global E needs those people to become consumers, only then a machine picking coffee beans will be introduced, so the growers could be used for something else.
The market price of cocoa cannot be the same as that of a PC – one grows on trees, the other is a feat of engineering. So your insinuations that we have to give something for free to care for the world are goundless – why should we give away what we break our neck for? And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us? I wouldn't say nobody cares for the US, partly because they are unavoidable you're at it again you moron>> I just wish they would be more equitable in the way they do things (and not show China how they do, because these guys are learning fast and the sheer size of their internal market is likely to create BUST for the third world), it would solve much problems into this planet's welfare. theu cant be more equitable, see above
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Edited by Chus - June 18 2007 at 18:10
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Jesus Gabriel
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: June 18 2007 at 18:21 |
It seems too me you all want freedom of speech in Venezuela, but not in this forum. Just seems funny thats all. 
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 18 2007 at 18:26 |
IVNORD wrote:
Chus wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Chus wrote:
Also reminds me of a famous speech (at least famous around here) made by PDVSA president (I have to remind that PDVSA was nationalised by Chavez... so it's a "state" oil company) saying that he won't allow anyone but the ones defending the "revolutionary" process to work for the company, and that PDVSA was red, very red (roja, rojita). The irony lies when the company was nationalised, the motto was "PDVSA is now for all".... I didn't know that I wasn't part of the people
Another proof of discrimination:
Today, another protest stopped by national guards and police forces (which were more than 200 units... they like to repress pacific protests but don't like fighting crimes, and lest we forget Caracas has the largest crime rate in southamerica), just because we didn't get the permit from the mayor (a Chavecist, as if that wasn't enough proof)... ironically, this morning, without expressed permit, Chavecists were marching in that same route, while the police forces were watching them from the sidewalks.... talk about discrimination.
And given the magnitude of the protest... since when do we need permits to protest? it's our natural right, isn't it? we notified with great anticipation that the march would take place and our destiny.. we need nothing more but police forces to protect us... not to repress |
Hey Chus, it's not getting any better? And you're at it again. Just look at you friend Lech Walesa, he's doing fine ever since he stopped protesting. Of course the police don't like fighting criminals, it's dangerous. Peaceful demonstrators are much nicer people.
How are your studies? Take care yourself, really. |
I always try to stay out of the front line to avoid confrontation. So don't worry about me, I'm following my heart but also my brain. I believe in this day and age protest can help a bit, at least it can show that we're not that easy to be dominated, and if I can make more bulk then I'll always try. Thanks for your concern, and studies are relatively good, I also try to stay focused on that, but of course I'm also bound to have these distractions, as any would in this situation. |
Why dont you stop wasting your time altogether? Confrontation with the police may be a good physical exercise but boxing is safer. And protesting can help only those who know how to use it to their advantage. Again, Walesa comes to mind . He gained weight and he looks much more respectable and glossy than when he was protesting as a plain electrician.
Stick to your books. You will find it to be a much better use of yourtime later in life than these distractions. Just sharing experience... |
As I said, I avoid direct confrontation with the police... we don't even give them the reasons for them to act violently, they were ordered to do so no matter how is our mood. And I'm sure you're speaking as a person who hasn't feared for these situations, but I've somehow been taught on how authoritarian systems work and I'm sorry but it's not just about politics... you can get screwed even not intervening in any "political" act.... I don't want to live the rest of my life depending on someone who can take my life anytime he wants to, or wondering if I might become his slave, it's better to not have a life at all, really. Or having someone planting political propaganda because he wants me dead, like it happened tons of times in the Franco regime in Spain. Only this is worse!.... I fear the worst... yes... even a civil war can explode here... I don't predict it would happen very soon, but soon enough to be preoccupied now
I do, however, appreciate your concern.
Edited by Chus - June 18 2007 at 18:30
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Jesus Gabriel
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 18 2007 at 22:46 |
Proletariat wrote:
It seems too me you all want freedom of speech in Venezuela, but not in this forum. Just seems funny thats all. |
Look man, nobody shut you up. If you come up with an idea you have to be able to defend it. The idea to discuss the Manifesto was naive to say the least. Did it ever bother you that, having analyzed the world history from the moment of conception of the notion of private property to the 19-century capitalism, and having declared that exploitation of man by man reigned for all that time, Marx suddenly came to a conclusion that the next social formation will be based on equality and brotyherhood? How special is it? No personal offence but even Marx would have had a good laugh from it today.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 18 2007 at 23:11 |
Chus wrote:
As I said, I avoid direct confrontation with the police... we don't even give them the reasons for them to act violently, they were ordered to do so no matter how is our mood. And I'm sure you're speaking as a person who hasn't feared for these situations, but I've somehow been taught on how authoritarian systems work and I'm sorry but it's not just about politics... you can get screwed even not intervening in any "political" act.... I'm not trying to claim I know the situation in Venezuela better than you, but if you can GO to a demonstration, it;s not that bad yet. Once I saw an entire demonstaration of a few hundred people arrested . Very impressive. It makes you think if it's worth it. I don't want to live the rest of my life depending on someone who can take my life anytime he wants to, so you decided it's better to get it over with now? why wait for the rest of your life? or wondering if I might become his slave, it's better to not have a life at all, really. it's childish, nothing is worth dying for. Or having someone planting political propaganda because he wants me dead, like it happened tons of times in the Franco regime in Spain. Only this is worse!.... I fear the worst... yes... even a civil war can explode here... I don't predict it would happen very soon, but soon enough to be preoccupied now dom't be hysterical. THe first sign of a threat of a civil war in Venezuela will be American paratroopers landing on Venezuelan oil fields. Until then rest assured Chavez won't cross the line.
I do, however, appreciate your concern. |
If you have proper education you could be much more useful in your "fight for democracy." If you don't succumb to the temptation of the trough in the process, of course, the way Walesa and Chavez did.
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Forgotten Son
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 01:01 |
INVORD wrote:
Your
insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s
not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. |
If I may make a point, though I don't wish to impose. I think a distinction needs to be made between the American people and American elites, as it's clear that the vast majority of American people don't benefit from the exploitative nature of US foreign policy, what with an ever-widening gap between the wealthiest couple of percent and the rest.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 01:10 |
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Please stop with the colors guys. I want to comment on some things, btu I can't even begin to sort who said what.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 04:52 |
stonebeard wrote:
Please stop with the colors guys. I want to comment on some things, btu I can't even begin to sort who said what. |
We are using the colors to make it simple as to whom said what, but I must say when Ivàn and I do so, we usually sign below in the latest color we used. IVNORD has been using black and red , while I've used green and purple.
Forgotten Son wrote:
INVORD wrote:
Your insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. |
If I may make a point, though I don't wish to impose.
I think a distinction needs to be made between the American people and American elites, as it's clear that the vast majority of American people don't benefit from the exploitative nature of US foreign policy, what with an ever-widening gap between the wealthiest couple of percent and the rest.
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Indeed, one of the things that never stops me from wondering how this is plausible, but most of the US citizens feel enough patriotism to defend its upper profitting class in terms of "superior national interest", while in France, there is no-one from the working class that is closing eyes on the way TotalFinaElf (now reduced to Total) is ripping blindly countries and befriending the horrible military junta of Burma just to get oil out of the country. Not that this is stopping this consortium to continue its ways.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 07:56 |
stonebeard wrote:
Please stop with the colors guys. I want to comment on some things, btu I can't even begin to sort who said what. |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 07:58 |
Chus wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Chus wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Chus wrote:
Also reminds me of a famous speech (at least famous around here) made by PDVSA president (I have to remind that PDVSA was nationalised by Chavez... so it's a "state" oil company) saying that he won't allow anyone but the ones defending the "revolutionary" process to work for the company, and that PDVSA was red, very red (roja, rojita). The irony lies when the company was nationalised, the motto was "PDVSA is now for all".... I didn't know that I wasn't part of the people
Another proof of discrimination:
Today, another protest stopped by national guards and police forces (which were more than 200 units... they like to repress pacific protests but don't like fighting crimes, and lest we forget Caracas has the largest crime rate in southamerica), just because we didn't get the permit from the mayor (a Chavecist, as if that wasn't enough proof)... ironically, this morning, without expressed permit, Chavecists were marching in that same route, while the police forces were watching them from the sidewalks.... talk about discrimination.
And given the magnitude of the protest... since when do we need permits to protest? it's our natural right, isn't it? we notified with great anticipation that the march would take place and our destiny.. we need nothing more but police forces to protect us... not to repress |
Hey Chus, it's not getting any better? And you're at it again. Just look at you friend Lech Walesa, he's doing fine ever since he stopped protesting. Of course the police don't like fighting criminals, it's dangerous. Peaceful demonstrators are much nicer people.
How are your studies? Take care yourself, really. |
I always try to stay out of the front line to avoid confrontation. So don't worry about me, I'm following my heart but also my brain. I believe in this day and age protest can help a bit, at least it can show that we're not that easy to be dominated, and if I can make more bulk then I'll always try. Thanks for your concern, and studies are relatively good, I also try to stay focused on that, but of course I'm also bound to have these distractions, as any would in this situation. |
Why dont you stop wasting your time altogether? Confrontation with the police may be a good physical exercise but boxing is safer. And protesting can help only those who know how to use it to their advantage. Again, Walesa comes to mind . He gained weight and he looks much more respectable and glossy than when he was protesting as a plain electrician.
Stick to your books. You will find it to be a much better use of yourtime later in life than these distractions. Just sharing experience... |
As I said, I avoid direct confrontation with the police... we don't even give them the reasons for them to act violently, they were ordered to do so no matter how is our mood. And I'm sure you're speaking as a person who hasn't feared for these situations, but I've somehow been taught on how authoritarian systems work and I'm sorry but it's not just about politics... you can get screwed even not intervening in any "political" act.... I don't want to live the rest of my life depending on someone who can take my life anytime he wants to, or wondering if I might become his slave, it's better to not have a life at all, really. Or having someone planting political propaganda because he wants me dead, like it happened tons of times in the Franco regime in Spain. Only this is worse!.... I fear the worst... yes... even a civil war can explode here... I don't predict it would happen very soon, but soon enough to be preoccupied now
I do, however, appreciate your concern. |
Chus, personally I think you should get involved just the way you are (be careful of cameras filming you, though). But by all means, never lose your personal future from sight (even if that future is in another country), as well as your family/surrounding's future. Indeed this is easy enough for Canado/Belgians and Americans to give advices when they haven't known anything else than democracy and safety when speaking their opinions
Politics and future of your country (and yours) are worth a fight, but not at any cost.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 08:09 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Forgotten Son wrote:
INVORD wrote:
Your insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. |
If I may make a point, though I don't wish to impose.
I think a distinction needs to be made between the American people and American elites, as it's clear that the vast majority of American people don't benefit from the exploitative nature of US foreign policy, what with an ever-widening gap between the wealthiest couple of percent and the rest.
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Indeed, one of the things that never stops me from wondering how this is plausible, but most of the US citizens feel enough patriotism to defend its upper profitting class in terms of "superior national interest", while in France, there is no-one from the working class that is closing eyes on the way TotalFinaElf (now reduced to Total) is ripping blindly countries and befriending the horrible military junta of Burma just to get oil out of the country. Not that this is stopping this consortium to continue its ways. |
That's a common mistake. The american people as well as the French working class benefit from it widely. Not as much as the oligarchy, but still quite substantially so. The same goes for Britain, Belguim, sweden and any other industrialized country.
Just wondering how is it the French working class not closing their eyes on Total's ways in Burma other than having a couple of glasses of wine after a peaceful demonstration and splittin to be home in time for dinner?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 08:35 |
IVNORD wrote:
I have a pretty thick skin, don't worry. It had a shade of a hint that we've deserved it, but your politically correct statement followed (you're so nice and careful). Though the perception that the US sucks all the juices out of the poor third world is the base for the hatred. >> In a way, if you look at the explotation that I denounce, and from an anti-imperialism (and even from a non-violent communist ) the 9/11 thing would've been exactly the targets they would've chosen. Don't get upset but the WTC (there is one in Brussels as well, so this is not an anti6US thing) is the instrument that allows 85% of world resources porofit to less than 5% of the population. But I will never agree with such methods and like most socialists, we were in total horror at what happened
You would be surprised to see the US market flooded with cigars from Honduras, Dominican Rep, Nicaragua. They support Fidel but the market economy dictates otherwise. Honduras and Dominica supporting Cuba? That's news to me. The first is a puppet state like Nicaragua under the Somoza regime, and the second one is too busy trying to grow baseball stars to look at Cuba.
Just as an impromptu, I don't think theUS model of vacation with 10 days a year is a model to follow. I've never said I like it either but that's the way it is. The US capitalism is just the most efficient (but dehumanized) machine in the world. I may admire the structure and inner working of its mechanism, but I hardly enjoy the way it breaks you and grinds you. >> well if you and your colleagues follow a few indoctrination courses , we'll have you ready at force-bending your bossing class . It's all a matter of kicking the right butts . Having gotten a taste of both side of the Atlantic (I could've gotten married and stayed in Canada), I can tell you life is much sweeter on this side of the pond
I think he just found something (coffee salesman from the looks of his van) in the region. Socialism makes plenty of room for abuse >> you can say that 1000 times and I won't contradict you. In some of its worst aspects it even encourages the leeches profitting from the system to become arrogant and DEMAND more.
the Microsoft monopoly is definitely worth a Microsoftgates You guys took him by the balls, don't complain. But the fact is the man is bright and he deserves his wealth. >> he's not that bad a person, as far as I can see him from here (he did receive a cream puff tart in the face when he came in Brussels a few years back for his monopoly policies
Something I have to disagree partially on. While in all truth the man IS a genius, there are many geniuses and hardworkers out there that deserve much of the money Gates is earning. The problem with extreme capitalism is that indeed monopolization kills any chance for others to compete, and accumulating all the richness in the world is not very sane to say the least. I find the extremes very unhealthy to say the least. And people here in Venezuela can hardly buy original Microsoft programs because they cost at least half as much as a new PC. A bit of a money monger >> Chus, This is what the Europeans want to avoid with their anti-trust stances. And I never understand why the EEC does not encourage the Danish Linux more.
In both cases the US protected its markets (sorry for spoiling your idyllic view). It wasn't as pronounced in WWII as during the Cold war, but it wasn't just because the Europeans smile nicely.>> well I wasn't suspecting that the US did that solely out of brotherly love (although the Jewish lobbies certainly did help trowing the US in the war). The Marshall plan moneys has been repaid back in hundreds of folds and US investments in Europe are bringing them a fortune. It is only recently that European firms have been able to buy huge US consortiums (Mercedes buying Chrysler for ex)
>>> beers I like Stella Artois, good beer >> This is our Budweiser cat piss compared to the microbreweries products. Once they brought me a dark Belgian beer in Quebec, it was good but I forgot the name >> most likely a Chimay, but we have over 400 of beers)
You try breaking up the big three's fruit monopoly (Chiquita, Dole, Del Monte) >> you get a price war or boycotts, the weaker ones getting killers sent to their homes, if you start becoming encumbrent. Here's another point. Even if you pay the growers the "fair" price, the middlemen chain is still there, so the price of the commodity goes up and that brings all other prices up (oil is a better example here). This is exactly where the trouble stands >> that middleman. Basta with him He's pure speculation and a real arsehole creating the problem. I agree that we need an organism that controls the flows and stocks, but not with the diabolical and scandalous margin he's having. Let's get rid of such rats
Percentage-wise, the grower will be only numbers-rich and have to pay much more for everything else. >> hang on, don't confuse the inflation rates in different countries, doubling coffee prices can only affect the consuming countries (and I want to get rid of the intermediate or at least control his profits), the growers in the third world is not concerned, as the local consumption would be consumed at local rates, or else no-one would be able to afford it.
Like the Italians or Turks - everyone's a millionaire, but a cup of coffee costs 10,000 Liras. >> old story now with the Euro Only when the global E needs those people to become consumers, only then a machine picking coffee beans will be introduced, so the growers could be used for something else.
And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us? I wouldn't say nobody cares for the US, partly because they are unavoidable you're at it again you moron. I don't follow you here!!! Is there something that makes you think that it is the world versus US?
I just wish they would be more equitable in the way they do things , it would solve much problems into this planet's welfare. they can't be more equitable, see above. Yes they could, but reducing the profit margins is simply taboo with the ruling classes.
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Edited by Sean Trane - June 19 2007 at 08:42
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
markosherrera
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2006
Location: World
Status: Offline
Points: 3252
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 19:13 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
I have a pretty thick skin, don't worry. It had a shade of a hint that we've deserved it, but your politically correct statement followed (you're so nice and careful). Though the perception that the US sucks all the juices out of the poor third world is the base for the hatred. >> In a way, if you look at the explotation that I denounce, and from an anti-imperialism (and even from a non-violent communist ) the 9/11 thing would've been exactly the targets they would've chosen. Don't get upset but the WTC (there is one in Brussels as well, so this is not an anti6US thing) is the instrument that allows 85% of world resources porofit to less than 5% of the population. But I will never agree with such methods and like most socialists, we were in total horror at what happened
You would be surprised to see the US market flooded with cigars from Honduras, Dominican Rep, Nicaragua. They support Fidel but the market economy dictates otherwise. Honduras and Dominica supporting Cuba? That's news to me. The first is a puppet state like Nicaragua under the Somoza regime, and the second one is too busy trying to grow baseball stars to look at Cuba.
Just as an impromptu, I don't think theUS model of vacation with 10 days a year is a model to follow. I've never said I like it either but that's the way it is. The US capitalism is just the most efficient (but dehumanized) machine in the world. I may admire the structure and inner working of its mechanism, but I hardly enjoy the way it breaks you and grinds you. >> well if you and your colleagues follow a few indoctrination courses, we'll have you ready at force-bending your bossing class. It's all a matter of kicking the right butts. Having gotten a taste of both side of the Atlantic (I could've gotten married and stayed in Canada), I can tell you life is much sweeter on this side of the pond
I think he just found something (coffee salesman from the looks of his van) in the region. Socialism makes plenty of room for abuse >> you can say that 1000 times and I won't contradict you. In some of its worst aspects it even encourages the leeches profitting from the system to become arrogant and DEMAND more.
the Microsoft monopoly is definitely worth a Microsoftgates You guys took him by the balls, don't complain. But the fact is the man is bright and he deserves his wealth. >> he's not that bad a person, as far as I can see him from here (he did receive a cream puff tart in the face when he came in Brussels a few years back for his monopoly policies
Something I have to disagree partially on. While in all truth the man IS a genius, there are many geniuses and hardworkers out there that deserve much of the money Gates is earning. The problem with extreme capitalism is that indeed monopolization kills any chance for others to compete, and accumulating all the richness in the world is not very sane to say the least. I find the extremes very unhealthy to say the least. And people here in Venezuela can hardly buy original Microsoft programs because they cost at least half as much as a new PC. A bit of a money monger >> Chus, This is what the Europeans want to avoid with their anti-trust stances. And I never understand why the EEC does not encourage the Danish Linux more.
In both cases the US protected its markets (sorry for spoiling your idyllic view). It wasn't as pronounced in WWII as during the Cold war, but it wasn't just because the Europeans smile nicely.>> well I wasn't suspecting that the US did that solely out of brotherly love (although the Jewish lobbies certainly did help trowing the US in the war). The Marshall plan moneys has been repaid back in hundreds of folds and US investments in Europe are bringing them a fortune. It is only recently that European firms have been able to buy huge US consortiums (Mercedes buying Chrysler for ex)
>>> beers I like Stella Artois, good beer >> This is our Budweiser cat piss compared to the microbreweries products. Once they brought me a dark Belgian beer in Quebec, it was good but I forgot the name >> most likely a Chimay, but we have over 400 of beers)
I recommend solera polar beer of Venezuiela and Tovar beer .
You try breaking up the big three's fruit monopoly (Chiquita, Dole, Del Monte) >> you get a price war or boycotts, the weaker ones getting killers sent to their homes, if you start becoming encumbrent. Here's another point. Even if you pay the growers the "fair" price, the middlemen chain is still there, so the price of the commodity goes up and that brings all other prices up (oil is a better example here). This is exactly where the trouble stands >> that middleman. Basta with him He's pure speculation and a real arsehole creating the problem. I agree that we need an organism that controls the flows and stocks, but not with the diabolical and scandalous margin he's having. Let's get rid of such rats
Percentage-wise, the grower will be only numbers-rich and have to pay much more for everything else. >> hang on, don't confuse the inflation rates in different countries, doubling coffee prices can only affect the consuming countries (and I want to get rid of the intermediate or at least control his profits), the growers in the third world is not concerned, as the local consumption would be consumed at local rates, or else no-one would be able to afford it.
Like the Italians or Turks - everyone's a millionaire, but a cup of coffee costs 10,000 Liras. >> old story now with the Euro Only when the global E needs those people to become consumers, only then a machine picking coffee beans will be introduced, so the growers could be used for something else.
And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us? I wouldn't say nobody cares for the US, partly because they are unavoidable you're at it again you moron. I don't follow you here!!! Is there something that makes you think that it is the world versus US?
I just wish they would be more equitable in the way they do things , it would solve much problems into this planet's welfare. they can't be more equitable, see above. Yes they could, but reducing the profit margins is simply taboo with the ruling classes.
THE oligopolies make cartels for put prices and they dont compete
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:32 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
I have a pretty thick skin, don't worry. It had a shade of a hint that we've deserved it, but your politically correct statement followed (you're so nice and careful). Though the perception that the US sucks all the juices out of the poor third world is the base for the hatred. >> In a way, if you look at the explotation that I denounce, and from an anti-imperialism (and even from a non-violent communist ) the 9/11 thing would've been exactly the targets they would've chosen. Don't get upset but the WTC no need to be apologetic. We've cleared it once (there is one in Brussels as well, so this is not an anti6US thing) is the instrument that allows 85% of world resources porofit to less than 5% of the population. But I will never agree with such methods and like most socialists, we were in total horror at what happened
You would be surprised to see the US market flooded with cigars from Honduras, Dominican Rep, Nicaragua. They support Fidel but the market economy dictates otherwise. Honduras and Dominica supporting Cuba? That's news to me. The first is a puppet state like Nicaragua under the Somoza regime, and the second one is too busy trying to grow baseball stars to look at Cuba. I meant the peoples of the respective countries. You conveniently left out the post-Somoza's Nicaragua, under the Ortegas
I've never said I like it either but that's the way it is. The US capitalism is just the most efficient (but dehumanized) machine in the world. I may admire the structure and inner working of its mechanism, but I hardly enjoy the way it breaks you and grinds you. >> well if you and your colleagues follow a few indoctrination courses, we'll have you ready at force-bending your bossing class. Aren't afraid of a chance yourself and your colleagues being converted?
>>> beers I like Stella Artois, good beer >> This is our Budweiser cat piss compared to the microbreweries products. Your cats are mighty good to compare with ours. But we have very good microbreweries too.
Here's another point. Even if you pay the growers the "fair" price, the middlemen chain is still there, so the price of the commodity goes up and that brings all other prices up (oil is a better example here). This is exactly where the trouble stands >> that middleman. Basta with him He's pure speculation and a real arsehole creating the problem. I agree that we need an organism that controls the flows and stocks, but not with the diabolical and scandalous margin he's having. Let's get rid of such rats I consider everyone and everything between the grower and me buying a can of coffee the middlemen. We've discussed it once. THe speculators are not in this chain. THe manufacturers/wholesalers/etc get probably under 10% in profits, the rest goes to the workers/truckers/storage/packaging. THe mass markets make this 10% huge. It's the volume, not the margin
Percentage-wise, the grower will be only numbers-rich and have to pay much more for everything else. >> hang on, don't confuse the inflation rates in different countries, doubling coffee prices can only affect the consuming countries (and I want to get rid of the intermediate or at least control his profits), the growers in the third world is not concerned, as the local consumption would be consumed at local rates, or else no-one would be able to afford it. You're watering it down to one commodity. Just wiat and see what the jump in oil prices will do prices for everithing else im a few years.
And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us? I wouldn't say nobody cares for the US, partly because they are unavoidable you're at it again you moron. I don't follow you here!!! Is there something that makes you think that it is the world versus US? I thought you implied they "care" because of our omni-presense. I take it back, you're a nice guy
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 19 2007 at 21:35 |
markosherrera wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
>>> beers I like Stella Artois, good beer >> This is our Budweiser cat piss compared to the microbreweries products. Once they brought me a dark Belgian beer in Quebec, it was good but I forgot the name >> most likely a Chimay, but we have over 400 of beers)
I recommend solera polar beer of Venezuiela and Tovar beer .
Thanks, I'll ask in our stores
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 20 2007 at 05:43 |
IVNORD wrote:
Just wondering how is it the French working class not closing their eyes on Total's ways in Burma other than having a couple of glasses of wine after a peaceful demonstration and splittin to be home in time for dinner? |
Worse than that, there is hardly a demonstration in either Belgium or France anymore ( Total is a third Belgian so they are concerned) >> but this is now common knowledge, but you'll find no-one in the public jumping in the water to rescue their reputation for patriotic reasons.
IVNORD wrote:
I meant the peoples of the respective countries. You conveniently left out the post-Somoza's Nicaragua, under the Ortegas. I didn't leave them out! I fully agreed with you as they are fervently pro-Cuba, but I only picked the ones I wasn't agreeing with you. Even in the Violetta Chamaro days, most of the country was still dealing with Cuba, but they were accepting to business away with the US as well.
but I hardly enjoy the way it breaks you and grinds you. >> well if you and your colleagues follow a few indoctrination courses, we'll have you ready at force-bending your bossing class. Aren't afraid of a chance yourself and your colleagues being converted? Fat chance, buddy!! If anything, we'll have you converted to kibbutz-type of sharing
This is our Budweiser cat piss compared to the microbreweries products. Your cats are mighty good to compare with ours. But we have very good microbreweries too. I know: I dare say where this is the better stuff from the US beers is coming from!! The Belgian Trappist beer Orval (these are monks living in a monastery, making just enough beers to circumvent to their needs, including the renovation of their abbeys) had to go to trial against a Denver boot brewey that was making a copy, using the name and the golden ring trout in the fountain logo. This cost them huge amounts of money (fronted by the Vatican I heard), but they finally won millions in damages. They reimbursed and gave the rest to charity.
I consider everyone and everything between the grower and me buying a can of coffee the middlemen. We've discussed it once. THe speculators are not in this chain.>> sorry disagree strongly, these are the guys that explain their roles as brokers to multiply the price of coffee by at least four or five times its original price just for stocking the merchendise and and maybe transport it to the westren countries. Most coffee makers (from Maxwell to Douwe & Egberts) use this commodity/service because it cuts their workforce costs and don't care for the quality (since they blend all types of bad coffee into the good ones. What Max Havelaar is trying to do is buying the coffee at a much superior price, have local companies boarding it to the final wharehouse . Fair trade is about eliminating unecessary chain liks who hike up the price of the commodity and cary out the savings to the grower/farmer. This type of brokerage works not only for coffee but almost every type of foods, thus creating important costs that quality food is not available but only for the wealthy..
THe manufacturers/wholesalers/etc get probably under 10% in profits, the rest goes to the workers/truckers/storage/packaging. THe mass markets make this 10% huge. It's the volume, not the margin. To me the middleman is the everything between the grower and the manufacturer also>> the Food Distribution Chains stores being the last necessary link to the chain.
as the local consumption would be consumed at local rates, or else no-one would be able to afford it. You're watering it down to one commodity. Just wait and see what the jump in oil prices will do prices for everithing else in a few years. Hopefully you're wrong
I thought you implied they "care" because of our omni-presense. I take it back, you're a nice guy >> well there was a bit of that in my statement. I don't know of one country that doesn't look up to the US in one way or another (after all the US is leading the way in a good or bad manner). The global economy is also closely linked with the US >> if the US sneezs, the whole planet catches pneumonia. So in a way you are right, the planet cares mostly the the US is doing well. And emerging huge markets (India and China, but Russia as well) are changing this fact a bit and this creating tensions in the exporting countries as far as primary commodities are concerned, so unfortunately the US polocies tend to be harder on the producer/grower than before.And the fact that they are reinforcing their omni-presence is not really helping smooth out the US' image in third world countries that depend on gopod crop commodities prices.
On a more general note, though: even in Iran, most of the people don't hate the US per se (quite on the contrary), but they don't like the imperialism they use in all trade matters.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 20 2007 at 09:05 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Just wondering how is it the French working class not closing their eyes on Total's ways in Burma other than having a couple of glasses of wine after a peaceful demonstration and splittin to be home in time for dinner? |
Worse than that, there is hardly a demonstration in either Belgium or France anymore ( Total is a third Belgian so they are concerned) >> but this is now common knowledge, but you'll find no-one in the public jumping in the water to rescue their reputation for patriotic reasons. A full stomach makes one oblivious to the cries of the hungry. Actually, the working class has evolved in the industrialized countries. It's long ceased to be proletariat and its new designation as the Middle class brings them ever closer to bourgeoisie
IVNORD wrote:
I meant the peoples of the respective countries. You conveniently left out the post-Somoza's Nicaragua, under the Ortegas. I didn't leave them out! I fully agreed with you as they are fervently pro-Cuba, but I only picked the ones I wasn't agreeing with you. Even in the Violetta Chamaro days, most of the country was still dealing with Cuba, but they were accepting to business away with the US as well. Funny, ever since Chamorro came to power, Nicaragua disappeared from headlines in the US. Who's in charge there today?
I consider everyone and everything between the grower and me buying a can of coffee the middlemen. We've discussed it once. THe speculators are not in this chain.>> sorry disagree strongly, these are the guys that explain their roles as brokers to multiply the price of coffee by at least four or five times its original price just for stocking the merchendise and and maybe transport it to the westren countries. Most coffee makers (from Maxwell to Douwe & Egberts) use this commodity/service because it cuts their workforce costs and don't care for the quality (since they blend all types of bad coffee into the good ones. What Max Havelaar is trying to do is buying the coffee at a much superior price, have local companies boarding it to the final wharehouse . Fair trade is about eliminating unecessary chain liks who hike up the price of the commodity and cary out the savings to the grower/farmer. This type of brokerage works not only for coffee but almost every type of foods, thus creating important costs that quality food is not available but only for the wealthy.. You seem to have lost your sleep over these speculators... THe futures commodity markets are used by the big manufacturers/suppliers to hedge their price. Speculators do exist but this entire sector is a separate pool of money. It does affect the price you pay as the big guys raise their price if they lose the hedging game; but it happens usually when the supplies of a given commodity are disrupted for whatever reason and the impact is not that huge. It used to be speculators against the big money. In 1972 they let the the public participate in this exciting game, and since then the excess of money in the public hands is thoroughly sucked out of the public hands. THat soothes the impact of the price fluctuations.The speculators are usually blamed for price hikes, as it's now the case with oil, but it's a smoke screen. So in the case of oil (and everything else), the culprit is the present US administration (and a few of them before it, as well as the respective administrations of all industrialized nations) who run their money printing presses nonstop.
I thought you implied they "care" because of our omni-presense. I take it back, you're a nice guy >> well there was a bit of that in my statement. I don't know of one country that doesn't look up to the US in one way or another (after all the US is leading the way in a good or bad manner). The global economy is also closely linked with the US >> if the US sneezs, the whole planet catches pneumonia. So in a way you are right, the planet cares mostly the the US is doing well. And emerging huge markets (India and China, but Russia as well) are changing this fact a bit and this creating tensions in the exporting countries as far as primary commodities are concerned, so unfortunately the US polocies tend to be harder on the producer/grower than before. In big part, the emergence of new economies such as India, China and Russia and Brazil creates more competition and thus more pressure on the local grower. And the fact that they are reinforcing their omni-presence is not really helping smooth out the US' image in third world countries that depend on gopod crop commodities prices. True, but in essence it's like blaming the speculators.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 20 2007 at 10:17 |
IVNORD wrote:
but this is now common knowledge, but you'll find no-one in the public jumping in the water to rescue their reputation for patriotic reasons. A full stomach makes one oblivious to the cries of the hungry. Indeed I said before that no-one makes revolution on full stomachs
Actually, the working class has evolved in the industrialized countries. It's long ceased to be proletariat and its new designation as the Middle class brings them ever closer to bourgeoisie . Isn't that progress though? having the working class evolving into middle class, even if they remain workers...
Funny, ever since Chamorro came to power, Nicaragua disappeared from headlines in the US. Who's in charge there today? Would you believe Ortega is has come back to power and he was elected this time....
This type of brokerage works not only for coffee but almost every type of foods, thus creating important costs that quality food is not available but only for the wealthy.. You seem to have lost your sleep over these speculators... Not that I am losing sleep over this issue (it'll take much more than that), but I believe speculation (and the whole stock market shebang) is one of the worst/evilest enemy of equal and fair trade. It is probably the worst aspect of capitalism.
The futures commodity markets are used by the big manufacturers/suppliers to hedge their price. Speculators do exist but this entire sector is a separate pool of money. It does affect the price you pay as the big guys raise their price if they lose the hedging game; but it happens usually when the supplies of a given commodity are disrupted for whatever reason and the impact is not that huge. It used to be speculators against the big money. >> but the big money has learned that it could make more money by playing the speculation game themselves, so since they couldn't beat the spoeculators, they joined them.
In 1972 they let the the public participate in this exciting game, and since then the excess of money in the public hands is thoroughly sucked out of the public hands. THat soothes the impact of the price fluctuations.The speculators are usually blamed for price hikes, as it's now the case with oil, but it's a smoke screen. So in the case of oil (and everything else), the culprit is the present US administration (and a few of them before it, as well as the respective administrations of all industrialized nations) who run their money printing presses nonstop.
And emerging huge markets (India and China, but Russia as well) are changing this fact a bit and this creating tensions in the exporting countries as far as primary commodities are concerned, so unfortunately the US policies tend to be harder on the producer/grower than before. In big part, the emergence of new economies such as India, China and Russia and Brazil creates more competition and thus more pressure on the local grower. Which would normally evolve in a price increase since the demand cannot be met. And it is the case for ore and other mining products (which are huge international conglomerates), but strangely (but when you really think about it, it is not strange at all) not for the food products. The price stay low as those brokers keep the stock artificially high by keeping the prices high. And Monsanto is forcing upon the growers their GMO plant seeds to be grown. And of course since the ability to produce valid seeds for next year has been genetically taken away, they'll have no choice to buy other seeds (same GMO deal). Everything is done to keep the farmers poor and dependant.
And the fact that they are reinforcing their omni-presence is not really helping smooth out the US' image in third world countries that depend on good crop commodities prices. True, but in essence it's like blaming the speculators.Indeed, the speculation game has taken a US image (even if it is not just the US playing this game) >> Hence the WTC's bad image and some of those pictures of people dancing in the streets as a reaction after 9/11. Apparently no-one in the US has actually really wondered why the rejoycing and the deep^rooted causes, other than diosmissing it as primary anti-US anger.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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