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Topic ClosedDirectional Audio Cables - myth or reality?

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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:40
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ why should there be an DC current required to "power up" the speakers? Essentially a speaker is an electrical magnet ... depending on the voltage of the signal the magnet attracts or repells the membrane (or rather the piece of metal attached to the membrane. If a speaker really needed DC current I'm sure it would simply get its own power supply.

And I'm also sure that the signals between the hi-fi components are AC too. You can't transport information on a DC connection ... unless you would do some kind of current modulation, which I have never heard of.
 
Well you have digital cables from DCC and CD decks to the amplifier and the optic links (this is the future for most intra-hifi links) work also in digital .
 
As far as the speakers are concerned I think I wrote a little too quick hereEmbarrassed. You're right (I was thinking of those computer speakers that have power plugs to them >> they're the ones I see when I type my answers) they can power themselves from the signal.
 
Edit: However should those Hifi speakers (not PA speakers) be needing to power itself up, the last thing I'd want to to is introduce a power suply inside the resonance box of the speaker or even under it.


Edited by Sean Trane - June 04 2007 at 12:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:47
^ of course optical and/or digital links work somewhat differently ... I was talking about analog cables, which still are the standard in most systems. Still, the connections are based on alternating current, which - as darquean eloquently put it - is simply another word for: signal.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 04 2007 at 11:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:56
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

 
There is no DC component in the speaker cable - it there was it would seriously damage your speakers. The Power Amplifier amplifies the music signal (I will refrain from calling it AC from now on) to such a level that it can drive the speaker coil.  >> Yup,Embarrassed I explained my mistake (re the computer speakers) in the other post, even if the info is not travelling the same cable as the power.
 
 
Signal flow is not the same as current flow (I've said this before), If you hold a length of rope by one end and give it a flick, a single "wave" would travel along the rope, but nothing else would. In an electrical conductor electrons do not flow along the cable carring bits of music signal - they propagate the "information" from one electron to the next like the fibres in the rope did. Imagine a Newton's Cradle - swing the ball at one end and the ball at the opposite end bounces. (it's actually nothing like that - but this is as simple an analogy I could think of).>>> I think we (I?) are mixing the subjects between digital cables and analog cables here. My NAD is running with analogue, but my Yamaha is using digital cables and my CD-burner even uses an optic link from my CD player. Clearly the two concepts are quite different with analogue cabling(directional or not).
 
 
The music signal really does Alternate between positive and negative, the Current flows in alternating directions in the conductor. A unidirectional conductor would stop half this signal from getting through. That is called a diode.
 
Matched speaker cable lengths are a partial Myth. 
  
There are impedance differences between unmatched cables that would be noticeable on inferior amplifiers - however you would not detect this on any mid to high-end amplifier.  >> Did not specify, but the impedance was the problem I was hinting at here. But I remember in the 80's my brother cutting a cable on 50 cm and one of 3m, (for sake of saving £$£€) and one speaker sounded much higher than the other due to the impedance (at least was my guess >> Max Pow Transfer). Once both cables were equal thios was solved.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:04
^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.
 
Digital is a whole different ball-game and you are moving from Audio into RF (which is why your digital cable is a co-ax cable like your TV) - in these cases optical is better.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:10
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.
 
 
 
I thought I was too until that post where I mixed up my different set ups on my different stereos.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 13:06
oh, and make sure you pay extra for those cables that reduce skin effect in the wire! Wink
[really needs an eyeroll smiley...]

most of that audiophilia stuff is bunk IMO.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 14:28
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.

Digital is a whole different ball-game and you are moving from Audio into RF (which is why your digital cable is a co-ax cable like your TV) - in these cases optical is better.


In theory yes. But actually optic fiber doesn't works.
(musically speaking).

Edited by oliverstoned - June 04 2007 at 14:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 17:36
^ this theory (digital connections influence the sound) would deserve a thread of its own.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2007 at 05:49
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ this theory (digital connections influence the sound) would deserve a thread of its own.Wink
 
 
NNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................LOL
 
 
Olivier, the only optical cable I have is the one supplied with my Hi-fi burner and it is connected from my Cd plzayer to it. It works just fine.
 
But I haven't tried it to my amp, since my amp is too old to have the optic receiving, (but it does the digital cables.


Edited by Sean Trane - June 05 2007 at 05:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2007 at 09:02
Cables schmables, just installed a pair of these Sonus Faber Concerto Domus speakers beside my hi-fi and not caring about the direction of anything except the sublime music these reproduce. I am in love.

The mid range is just awesome - listening to Radiohead's The Tourist from Ok Computer last night and separation of the twin Thom Yorke vocals on it was just enthralling. Okay so the bass can degrade on fast music but I'll buy a damn sub to correct that at some point.

I'm a very broke, but very happy boy...





Edited by arcer - June 05 2007 at 09:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2007 at 05:09

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

 
Truth or Myth? Cable Directionality
You are here: Russ' Masterclass > Truth or Myth? Cable Directionality
Go back to the previous page 
All cables - yes all cables have signal directionality. By 'directional' I mean that in one direction, the sound is slightly louder, has lower distortion, is a cleaner, smoother, sweeter, and has a deeper bass and overall wider dynamic range. Cable directionality is measurable and quantifiable, if not fully understood.

The amount of directionality, or the difference between one direction and another varies from cable to cable.

I first discovered cable directionality when I was doing research and development into cable design in 1979. I was auditioning a microphone cable as an interconnect. The drain wire in the cable could be grounded at either end and a friend suggested that I try it each way round (meaning to change the grounding from one end to the other). I misunderstood him, however, thinking that he meant that I should turn the whole cable around. I found to my surprise that the cable actually sounded better one way than the other - it was directional!

I tested the effect on my wife (a blind test, not telling her what I was changing) and asked her to describe the change in sound. She described exactly what I had heard, so I knew I wasn't imagining it, even though my electronic 'education' said it couldn't happen.

I have since discovered that the telecommunications industry is well aware of cable directionality and applies this knowledge when laying cables.

The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.



When you buy a cable from us, its directionality is marked by either an arrow on a paper label, or on the heatshrink near one end of the cable. The signal follows the arrow, so on an interconnect connecting a CD player to an amplifier, the arrow points towards the amplifier. On a loudspeaker cable, the arrow points towards your speakers.

If you have a cable that isn't labelled with its directionality, see our tip, right, on directionalising cables at home.




Postscript: Customer Craig Sawyers e-mailed us to say:

"Interesting comments about cable directionality, Russ. That it occurs is undoubtedly true, and that it is poorly understood is also true. But your comments about communications professionals knowing about the effect is, also surprisingly, true!

When we moved into our house about 10 years ago, I had a company based in Luton, who I knew, come and install the TV and FM aerials. As he was uncoiling the spool of high spec, double shielded satellite cable on the lawn the engineer said "got to make sure I get this the right way round". I asked him why, and he said "no idea how it works, but you get a better picture when we connect it the right way round". So there we go - it isn't only the audio fraternity that notice cable directionality!"


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2007 at 08:07
LOL - of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.

The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2007 at 11:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

LOL - of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.

The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves.

 
this is the point, Mike, cables are not made to be directional, thay just are - nobody really understands why .Confused  and it doesn't affect the price or saleability - even cheap cables are directional.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2007 at 22:00
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

LOL - of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.

The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves.

 
this is the point, Mike, cables are not made to be directional, thay just are - nobody really understands why .Confused  and it doesn't affect the price or saleability - even cheap cables are directional.
 
I have sent an email to Kimber Kables, (surely that should be Cimber Cables - swaping K's for C's is all a bit too much Kamelot and Konkhra for meConfused), asking if they could furnish me with more details on this quantifable test method. I await their reply.SleepySleepySleepy
 
Mike is correct on all counts - if the cable were electrically directional then the symmetry of the signal would be affected - ie distorted on one half of the signal - swapping the cable would only swap the distortion to the other half but the net result would be the same... distortion.
 
::thinking out loud::
 
Because this distortion would be asymmetrical it would consist of predominately even harmonics - the same kind of harmonic distortion you get from the output transformer in a valve (tube) amplifier. Valve amps are generally regarded as "warmer" than their solid-state counterparts for this reason. However since this asymmetric distortion is the same in both directions it does not explain subjective directionality.
 
In all of the (web)published info on this subject many listeners say that the signal sounds warmer when the cables are swapped while the others say it is brighter (i.e. the opposite). Aside from sugesting that the actual direction of these "directional" cables is purely a matter of personal taste, it tends to imply that there is even harmonic distortion in one direction (warmer) and odd harmonic distortion in the other (brighter). Odd harmonic distortion occurs when the music signal is distorted equally on both the positive and negative cycles (ie symmetricaly).
 
This leads to another possible explanation in that in one direction there is odd harmonic distortion and in the other there is none. What people are perceiving as a warmer sound is actually the true sound that the record producer created and the brighter sound is the cable distorting the signal symmetrically. This still does not explain the mechanics of subjective directionality.
 
A cable is a passive network, electrically it is described by transmission-line theory, which describes the two wires (signal & return - not left & right) as a ladder of series inductors (L) and parallel capacitors (C), this is symmetrical and (being passive) works in either direction. The inductors are the wire itself while the capacitors are the plastic insulation that seperates the two wires (often called the dielectric... and there is a whole mess of audiophile psuedo-science regarding dielectrics - including one idea that the dye in the insulator can leach into the wire). This L-C effective-circuit is a low-pass filter, with a roll-over frequency in excess of 100KHz (depending upon cable length), which is why you cannot send video signals down an audio cable. Because audio cables are designed to have a flat frequency response across the entire audio spectrum the electrical characteristics of the cable cannot be affecting the colour of the sound like the tone-controls on an amplifer would.
 
For there to be directionality in this L-C ladder then either there is either directionality in the L or in the C element of the cable. All internet discussion on this subject centres around the wire itself, which suggests that the directionality is in the wire. However, since the conductors are multi-strand then this directionality would have to exist in all the individual strands and that they are all aligned in the same direction.
 
Because multistrand cables are spun together from multiple reels of single strand wire this would mean that the spools of wire are all of identical directionality. As strange as it may seem - this is feasible since the wire is made by drawing a ingot of copper through increasingly smaller dies, then spooling it onto a huge drum and then re-reeling it onto smaller spools for sale to audio-cable manufacturers - so the direction of manufacture will be constant for all spools. If it is the drawing process that imparts the directionality into the inductance of the wire then it will be electrically measureable. And since both wire and the ability to measure inductance have been around for a few hundred years, someone would have spotted this by now. Even cable manufacturers who sell directional cable only quote one value for the inductance of their cable (and one value for the capacitance).
 
On curious comment I read on this subject is that the directional effect is less noticable after 20 minutes or so.
 
This process is refered to a lot and is called burn-in, impling that there is an annealing effect going on, which, by inference, means that heat is involved in re-arranging the structure of the copper. Heat requires power. The power in an interconnect is smaller than miniscule - the resistance of the cable is typically 65miliohms and it is terminated in 47Kohms. This means that for a 1 volts rms music signal 1.46uV is lost in the cable, which equates to 40attoW of power (40E-18W), which is best refered to as four-fifths of nothing divided by infinity. One fanciful explanation I have read for this is that the electrons flowing through the wire are rearranging the copper crystals to find the path of least resistance, which is wrong on so many levels I'll not even bother to comment.
 
Another cable-direction issue that is costing Audiofiles a whole heap of readily disposible cash is in the power cable that connects the hi-fi to the national grid. But that's another story. Smile
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2007 at 17:07
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

::snip::
The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.
::snip:: 

1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
 
awaiting their second reply Sleepy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2007 at 18:13
About 6 months ago I mailed a cable manufacturer (both hi-fi and professional studio/tour stuff) with the same question.

Basically I wondered why their rather good value professional studio speaker cable was not marked up as being directional, whereas their 'hi-fi' stuff was.
This is the response :-

The theory goes that copper crystals when pulled form slight chevrons, these point in the direction of the way the copper was pulled.

The boundaries make resistance, and so in theory affect the quality of the sound.

The <pro studio & tour range name removed> ranges are for the professional user, who it has to be said have more pressing concerns than whether their cables are run out in the right direction; -they tend to think this is irrelevant.

The Hi-Fi industry think otherwise and like to have something to listen to in every option; I as you may imagine sit firmly on the fence.



The upshot is I now use the pro stuff for my hi-fi.


Edited by enigma - June 11 2007 at 18:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2007 at 18:32
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

The signal is balanced in bridge-amps (eg vehicle ICE systems) and in some valve designs, but in most semiconductor amps the "Black" terminal is grounded, so the signal is un-balanced. However, as you say, the signal is very strong in relation to the interference and the network (amp-cable-speaker) is low impedance, so interference effects are negligible.
 
Personnally I think shielded speaker cables are a waste of time, effort and money, and any unshielded two-wire cables that are labeled as directional are fraudulent.
 
 
 
 
Most valve amps will drive the load through a transformer so are truly balanced output (and also floating, no direct ground connection).
 
As regards speaker cable, I agree entirely.Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2007 at 04:33
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

::snip::
The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.
::snip:: 

1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
 
awaiting their second reply Sleepy
 
i too would be interested to know what  "new and very expensive test equipment" they use to test directionality, might write to them myself and ask for a report! Wink
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2007 at 07:52
They will probably invest in a TV advertising campaign led by presenters in white coats; that way, the wobbling classes will believe "Dey Must Be Sientizts And Cleva, Dey Got Wite Coatz" and will buy the product on their word alone...

...even if they don't own any hi-fi.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2007 at 17:43
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

::snip::
The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.
::snip:: 

1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
 
awaiting their second reply Sleepy
 
i too would be interested to know what  "new and very expensive test equipment" they use to test directionality, might write to them myself and ask for a report! Wink
 
 
 
I've got the feedback from Mr Diamond of Kimber Kable. The copper wires they use are basically amorphous in structure, and hence not directional. He says that directionality occurs after a burn-in period. He also states that they have some expensive test equipment and can perform some special tests at special frequencies that reveals observable changes that standard audio-band tests would not show.
 
"Since we are a private business and not a public research facility we tend to keep these tests and the research to ourselves."
...
"In summary,  RAA's statement is based in fact.  It is just not a statement we have chosen to make.  As such, it is still not our factory's statement."
 
A tad frustrating, but not unexpected. Stern%20Smile
 
So the bottom line is: if directionality is an empirically measureable effect, then the proof is still illusive.
 
Since (by subjective tests) it appears to occur naturally with use, non-directional cables, or directional cables connected the wrong way around, will "correct" themselves over a period of time (which seems to vary from 20 minutes to 50 hours).
 
So the real irony is not that Audiophile believers are wasting their money buying unnecessary directional cable, but that we sceptics and non-believers could be using "directional" cable anyway. Wink
 
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