Directional Audio Cables - myth or reality? |
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Author | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:40 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well you have digital cables from DCC and CD decks to the amplifier and the optic links (this is the future for most intra-hifi links) work also in digital .
As far as the speakers are concerned I think I wrote a little too quick here. You're right (I was thinking of those computer speakers that have power plugs to them >> they're the ones I see when I type my answers) they can power themselves from the signal.
Edit: However should those Hifi speakers (not PA speakers) be needing to power itself up, the last thing I'd want to to is introduce a power suply inside the resonance box of the speaker or even under it. Edited by Sean Trane - June 04 2007 at 12:00 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21128 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:47 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
^ of course optical and/or digital links work somewhat differently ... I was talking about analog cables, which still are the standard in most systems. Still, the connections are based on alternating current, which - as darquean eloquently put it - is simply another word for: signal.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 04 2007 at 11:49 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:56 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:04 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.
Digital is a whole different ball-game and you are moving from Audio into RF (which is why your digital cable is a co-ax cable like your TV) - in these cases optical is better.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:10 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
I thought I was too until that post where I mixed up my different set ups on my different stereos.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
GoldenSpiral
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 27 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3839 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 13:06 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
oh, and make sure you pay extra for those cables that reduce skin effect in the wire!
[really needs an eyeroll smiley...] most of that audiophilia stuff is bunk IMO. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 14:28 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
In theory yes. But actually optic fiber doesn't works. (musically speaking). Edited by oliverstoned - June 04 2007 at 14:29 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21128 |
Posted: June 04 2007 at 17:36 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
^ this theory (digital connections influence the sound) would deserve a thread of its own.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
Posted: June 05 2007 at 05:49 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
NNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................
Olivier, the only optical cable I have is the one supplied with my Hi-fi burner and it is connected from my Cd plzayer to it. It works just fine.
But I haven't tried it to my amp, since my amp is too old to have the optic receiving, (but it does the digital cables. Edited by Sean Trane - June 05 2007 at 05:53 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
arcer
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 01 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1239 |
Posted: June 05 2007 at 09:02 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Cables schmables, just installed a pair of these Sonus Faber Concerto Domus speakers beside my hi-fi and not caring about the direction of anything except the sublime music these reproduce. I am in love.
The mid range is just awesome - listening to Radiohead's The Tourist from Ok Computer last night and separation of the twin Thom Yorke vocals on it was just enthralling. Okay so the bass can degrade on fast music but I'll buy a damn sub to correct that at some point. I'm a very broke, but very happy boy... Edited by arcer - June 05 2007 at 09:03 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
mystic fred
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: June 09 2007 at 05:09 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Prog Archives Tour Van
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21128 |
Posted: June 09 2007 at 08:07 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
- of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.
The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
mystic fred
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: June 09 2007 at 11:58 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
this is the point, Mike, cables are not made to be directional, thay just are - nobody really understands why . and it doesn't affect the price or saleability - even cheap cables are directional.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Prog Archives Tour Van
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 09 2007 at 22:00 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
I have sent an email to Kimber Kables, (surely that should be Cimber Cables - swaping K's for C's is all a bit too much Kamelot and Konkhra for me), asking if they could furnish me with more details on this quantifable test method. I await their reply.
Mike is correct on all counts - if the cable were electrically directional then the symmetry of the signal would be affected - ie distorted on one half of the signal - swapping the cable would only swap the distortion to the other half but the net result would be the same... distortion.
::thinking out loud::
Because this distortion would be asymmetrical it would consist of predominately even harmonics - the same kind of harmonic distortion you get from the output transformer in a valve (tube) amplifier. Valve amps are generally regarded as "warmer" than their solid-state counterparts for this reason. However since this asymmetric distortion is the same in both directions it does not explain subjective directionality.
In all of the (web)published info on this subject many listeners say that the signal sounds warmer when the cables are swapped while the others say it is brighter (i.e. the opposite). Aside from sugesting that the actual direction of these "directional" cables is purely a matter of personal taste, it tends to imply that there is even harmonic distortion in one direction (warmer) and odd harmonic distortion in the other (brighter). Odd harmonic distortion occurs when the music signal is distorted equally on both the positive and negative cycles (ie symmetricaly).
This leads to another possible explanation in that in one direction there is odd harmonic distortion and in the other there is none. What people are perceiving as a warmer sound is actually the true sound that the record producer created and the brighter sound is the cable distorting the signal symmetrically. This still does not explain the mechanics of subjective directionality.
A cable is a passive network, electrically it is described by transmission-line theory, which describes the two wires (signal & return - not left & right) as a ladder of series inductors (L) and parallel capacitors (C), this is symmetrical and (being passive) works in either direction. The inductors are the wire itself while the capacitors are the plastic insulation that seperates the two wires (often called the dielectric... and there is a whole mess of audiophile psuedo-science regarding dielectrics - including one idea that the dye in the insulator can leach into the wire). This L-C effective-circuit is a low-pass filter, with a roll-over frequency in excess of 100KHz (depending upon cable length), which is why you cannot send video signals down an audio cable. Because audio cables are designed to have a flat frequency response across the entire audio spectrum the electrical characteristics of the cable cannot be affecting the colour of the sound like the tone-controls on an amplifer would.
For there to be directionality in this L-C ladder then either there is either directionality in the L or in the C element of the cable. All internet discussion on this subject centres around the wire itself, which suggests that the directionality is in the wire. However, since the conductors are multi-strand then this directionality would have to exist in all the individual strands and that they are all aligned in the same direction.
Because multistrand cables are spun together from multiple reels of single strand wire this would mean that the spools of wire are all of identical directionality. As strange as it may seem - this is feasible since the wire is made by drawing a ingot of copper through increasingly smaller dies, then spooling it onto a huge drum and then re-reeling it onto smaller spools for sale to audio-cable manufacturers - so the direction of manufacture will be constant for all spools. If it is the drawing process that imparts the directionality into the inductance of the wire then it will be electrically measureable. And since both wire and the ability to measure inductance have been around for a few hundred years, someone would have spotted this by now. Even cable manufacturers who sell directional cable only quote one value for the inductance of their cable (and one value for the capacitance).
On curious comment I read on this subject is that the directional effect is less noticable after 20 minutes or so.
This process is refered to a lot and is called burn-in, impling that there is an annealing effect going on, which, by inference, means that heat is involved in re-arranging the structure of the copper. Heat requires power. The power in an interconnect is smaller than miniscule - the resistance of the cable is typically 65miliohms and it is terminated in 47Kohms. This means that for a 1 volts rms music signal 1.46uV is lost in the cable, which equates to 40attoW of power (40E-18W), which is best refered to as four-fifths of nothing divided by infinity. One fanciful explanation I have read for this is that the electrons flowing through the wire are rearranging the copper crystals to find the path of least resistance, which is wrong on so many levels I'll not even bother to comment.
Another cable-direction issue that is costing Audiofiles a whole heap of readily disposible cash is in the power cable that connects the hi-fi to the national grid. But that's another story.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 11 2007 at 17:07 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
awaiting their second reply
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
enigma
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 154 |
Posted: June 11 2007 at 18:13 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
About 6 months ago I mailed a cable manufacturer (both hi-fi and professional studio/tour stuff) with the same question.
Basically I wondered why their rather good value professional studio speaker cable was not marked up as being directional, whereas their 'hi-fi' stuff was. This is the response :- The theory goes that
copper crystals when pulled form slight chevrons, these point in the direction
of the way the copper was pulled. The boundaries make
resistance, and so in theory affect the quality of the
sound. The <pro studio & tour range name removed>
ranges are for the professional user, who it has to be said have more pressing
concerns than whether their cables are run out in the right direction; -they
tend to think this is irrelevant. The Hi-Fi industry
think otherwise and like to have something to listen to in every option; I as
you may imagine sit firmly on the fence. The upshot is I now use the pro stuff for my hi-fi. Edited by enigma - June 11 2007 at 18:15 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Neil
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 04 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1497 |
Posted: June 11 2007 at 18:32 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Most valve amps will drive the load through a transformer so are truly balanced output (and also floating, no direct ground connection).
As regards speaker cable, I agree entirely.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
mystic fred
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: June 12 2007 at 04:33 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
i too would be interested to know what "new and very expensive test equipment" they use to test directionality, might write to them myself and ask for a report!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Prog Archives Tour Van
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jim Garten
Special Collaborator Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: June 12 2007 at 07:52 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
They will probably invest in a TV advertising campaign led by presenters in white coats; that way, the wobbling classes will believe "Dey Must Be Sientizts And Cleva, Dey Got Wite Coatz" and will buy the product on their word alone...
...even if they don't own any hi-fi. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 12 2007 at 17:43 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
I've got the feedback from Mr Diamond of Kimber Kable. The copper wires they use are basically amorphous in structure, and hence not directional. He says that directionality occurs after a burn-in period. He also states that they have some expensive test equipment and can perform some special tests at special frequencies that reveals observable changes that standard audio-band tests would not show.
"Since we are a private business and not a public research facility we tend to keep these tests and the research to ourselves."
...
"In summary, RAA's statement is based in fact. It is just not a statement we have chosen to make. As such, it is still not our factory's statement."
A tad frustrating, but not unexpected.
So the bottom line is: if directionality is an empirically measureable effect, then the proof is still illusive.
Since (by subjective tests) it appears to occur naturally with use, non-directional cables, or directional cables connected the wrong way around, will "correct" themselves over a period of time (which seems to vary from 20 minutes to 50 hours).
So the real irony is not that Audiophile believers are wasting their money buying unnecessary directional cable, but that we sceptics and non-believers could be using "directional" cable anyway.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
What?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <123> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |