| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Proletariat 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
|
 Posted: June 08 2007 at 22:29 |
^^^
for the most part the problimatic ones were not highlited
with the exclusion of 18 23 and 25 as I said
|
|
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
|
 |
Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 22:22 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
I have never taken part in the picking apart of argument's but I have seen it done and so will try.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
|
I haven’t heard such an example of Dialectic Determinism since the University and still believe it’s flawed.
OK
I read the manifesto of on my own, the school was not involved.
Well, we read it at school, but deeply in the University.
Good for you
Under true communism the workers elect a council of leaders, those leaders are still expected to work. Anyone who does not do work dosn't get to vote.
This is absurd, the vote is a political right inherent to the human being despite how productive he is, the human being is not an instrument of work, is a subject of natural and political rights that can’t be taken from him except for a criminal act and only some political rights.
Look if he chooses a diffrent society over the offitial one (that is based on productivity)than he isn't a part of the nation. last time I checked immigrants can only vote in the nation they are a member of.
The workers can withdraw a leader at any time,
Then prepare to be isolated from the world community, I wouldn’t sign a contract with a President, Chairman or whatever who can be removed at any moment.
there would be no president or chairman to sighn with only a council whose view as a whole unit would not shift because of one member being removed
Society needs a Governor elected for a determined period of time and the security that at the end of that period will abandon the office or be reelected by direct, personal and universal vote, that’s the minimum security required for investors and for treaties, you can’t sign a treaty or a contract with a guy that may be removed tomorrow and the follower ignore everything done by his predecessor.
But that only applies to the individual, and there would be no individual rule, only rule as a group.
It’s normal that a Governor looses a great percentage of popularity during some moment of his government, so you would have changes every week, but the followers of this removed leader will fight to keep him and you will have revolutions every day.
The consequence is that the system would fail because of it’s own contradictions.
And democracy doesn't?
and as there is no army except the militia of the workers there is nothing that the council can do to stop them.
The workers as a mass don’t have the capacity to manage a militia, army and police to keep the peace are required.
of course they would be trained by the government but in the end the people would have the guns... if evryone worked than each person could work less time, leaving more time for such activities.
You are free to not be a communist and not support the system, but in doing so you are saying that the system does not need to support you ither, and because there is no tecnical government there is no one to get upset and feel the need to kill you.
In other words or you agree with us or go to hell.....And what if the people get tired of Communism?
Not to hell (that would be christianity) but to another country. I believe the US still takes in rejects at times.
Isn’t the obligation of a system to provide security for all the citizens and not only for the followers?
no. at least I dont think about it that way. is the purpose of a church to force evryone to come on sunday or is it for those who choose?
Wow no technical Government...Isn’t this anarchism? Who will represent the people? Who will sign the treaties?
Close. The people. an elected councle of the people.
This is a form of communism known as libretarian or council communism, it was a movement that was gaining strength before the revolution in russia, but the offitial party wiped it out.
This may work in small communities but not in a country.
how do you know? it has never been tried. worse comes to worse screw countries and have communities.
P.S. the revolution has not occured yet! there are sertain prerequisites that need to be met first, one being that the country that adopts the system should already be powerfull and not a dump in the first place.
Another flaw, Communism is a reaction of people in countries where things don’t run well, big countries with enough resources tend to step away from Communism, look at China, it was Communist until they got technology and now Communism is being abandoned.
they wern't actually communist, I thought I established that, and so the exsample does not apply Mao was a poser
The countries that thought they were products of the revolution have mainly been decades behind and poor as dirt.
Those are the only counties in which Communism has a chance to appear, where there’s an oppressed majority and social injustice, where most of the citizens don’t have enough to eat.
wow, and I thought there was a huge rebellion in paris not too long ago, the french are still a world power right?
If most people have a property and have a work, they won’t allow nobody to take what they have gained with their effort, so don’t expect Communism in powerful countries
this is why I hate N korea, china USSR etc. communism is suppost to be voluntary
In prosperous countries you will never find Communism, maybe Social Democracy or Euro Socialism, but Communism never.
not yet. the same could be and was said about democracy. Look at democracy in Iraq, people forget that in the beggining in the first election the people voted for sudam, people voted hitler into office also.
Iván
I know it will sound stupid from a communist but to see a good example of communism in the works look at the book of acts in the bible, another good example would be native americans or certain greek states (in antient times) |
|
I know I could argue with you all day and not change your mind. If you have questions PM me, otherwise this is just taking up space and will get no where.
edit: at least we can agree (to some extent) musically |
Mandatory form of government, no property, no freedom, no individual rights, nationality only for those who agree with your system.....this sounds very similar to other document:
The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party
RACIST AND XENOPHOBIC CRAP DELETED
11 That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12 Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13 We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14 We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15 We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
16 We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalisation of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small trades people, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
17 We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
18 We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
19 We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.
20 In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.
21 The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centres, by prohibiting juvenile labour, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.
22 We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.
23 We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:
(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens. (b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language. (c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich. Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.
24 We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.
The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle:
COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD
25 In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.
The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.
The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives. | |
The highlifgted parts are almost identical to your utopic and mandatory communism, it's funny how despite the color and ideology all totalitarism is similar.
Lets stay agreeing with music because your post is simply unbelievable.
Iván |
did you actually read what I wrote?
I just said not manditory
communism is an economic system. it has little to do with the government.
The diffrence is the racism and that power was given to one man.
I dont see how these compare.
I dont agree with 18 and 23 and said so. edit: oh and 25 is bs too
I agree that the form of communism as it exists today is alot like natzi's but not because that is how its suppost to be, because it was twisted by the power hungry and the same happens in democracys.
are you saying that free markets reduce genocide, because there are free markets in the sudan, some of the free-est in the world, if you want the opposite of communism that is where you should go.
Edited by Proletariat - June 08 2007 at 22:29
|
|
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 22:11 |
Proletariat wrote:
I have never taken part in the picking apart of argument's but I have seen it done and so will try.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
|
I haven’t heard such an example of Dialectic Determinism since the University and still believe it’s flawed.
OK
I read the manifesto of on my own, the school was not involved.
Well, we read it at school, but deeply in the University.
Good for you
Under true communism the workers elect a council of leaders, those leaders are still expected to work. Anyone who does not do work dosn't get to vote.
This is absurd, the vote is a political right inherent to the human being despite how productive he is, the human being is not an instrument of work, is a subject of natural and political rights that can’t be taken from him except for a criminal act and only some political rights.
Look if he chooses a diffrent society over the offitial one (that is based on productivity)than he isn't a part of the nation. last time I checked immigrants can only vote in the nation they are a member of.
The workers can withdraw a leader at any time,
Then prepare to be isolated from the world community, I wouldn’t sign a contract with a President, Chairman or whatever who can be removed at any moment.
there would be no president or chairman to sighn with only a council whose view as a whole unit would not shift because of one member being removed
Society needs a Governor elected for a determined period of time and the security that at the end of that period will abandon the office or be reelected by direct, personal and universal vote, that’s the minimum security required for investors and for treaties, you can’t sign a treaty or a contract with a guy that may be removed tomorrow and the follower ignore everything done by his predecessor.
But that only applies to the individual, and there would be no individual rule, only rule as a group.
It’s normal that a Governor looses a great percentage of popularity during some moment of his government, so you would have changes every week, but the followers of this removed leader will fight to keep him and you will have revolutions every day.
The consequence is that the system would fail because of it’s own contradictions.
And democracy doesn't?
and as there is no army except the militia of the workers there is nothing that the council can do to stop them.
The workers as a mass don’t have the capacity to manage a militia, army and police to keep the peace are required.
of course they would be trained by the government but in the end the people would have the guns... if evryone worked than each person could work less time, leaving more time for such activities.
You are free to not be a communist and not support the system, but in doing so you are saying that the system does not need to support you ither, and because there is no tecnical government there is no one to get upset and feel the need to kill you.
In other words or you agree with us or go to hell.....And what if the people get tired of Communism?
Not to hell (that would be christianity) but to another country. I believe the US still takes in rejects at times.
Isn’t the obligation of a system to provide security for all the citizens and not only for the followers?
no. at least I dont think about it that way. is the purpose of a church to force evryone to come on sunday or is it for those who choose?
Wow no technical Government...Isn’t this anarchism? Who will represent the people? Who will sign the treaties?
Close. The people. an elected councle of the people.
This is a form of communism known as libretarian or council communism, it was a movement that was gaining strength before the revolution in russia, but the offitial party wiped it out.
This may work in small communities but not in a country.
how do you know? it has never been tried. worse comes to worse screw countries and have communities.
P.S. the revolution has not occured yet! there are sertain prerequisites that need to be met first, one being that the country that adopts the system should already be powerfull and not a dump in the first place.
Another flaw, Communism is a reaction of people in countries where things don’t run well, big countries with enough resources tend to step away from Communism, look at China, it was Communist until they got technology and now Communism is being abandoned.
they wern't actually communist, I thought I established that, and so the exsample does not apply Mao was a poser
The countries that thought they were products of the revolution have mainly been decades behind and poor as dirt.
Those are the only counties in which Communism has a chance to appear, where there’s an oppressed majority and social injustice, where most of the citizens don’t have enough to eat.
wow, and I thought there was a huge rebellion in paris not too long ago, the french are still a world power right?
If most people have a property and have a work, they won’t allow nobody to take what they have gained with their effort, so don’t expect Communism in powerful countries
this is why I hate N korea, china USSR etc. communism is suppost to be voluntary
In prosperous countries you will never find Communism, maybe Social Democracy or Euro Socialism, but Communism never.
not yet. the same could be and was said about democracy. Look at democracy in Iraq, people forget that in the beggining in the first election the people voted for sudam, people voted hitler into office also.
Iván
I know it will sound stupid from a communist but to see a good example of communism in the works look at the book of acts in the bible, another good example would be native americans or certain greek states (in antient times) |
|
I know I could argue with you all day and not change your mind. If you have questions PM me, otherwise this is just taking up space and will get no where.
edit: at least we can agree (to some extent) musically |
Mandatory form of government, no property, no freedom, no individual rights, nationality only for those who agree with your system.....this sounds very similar to other document:
The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party
RACIST AND XENOPHOBIC CRAP DELETED
11 That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12 Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13 We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14 We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15 We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
16 We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalisation of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small trades people, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
17 We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
18 We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
19 We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.
20 In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.
21 The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centres, by prohibiting juvenile labour, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.
22 We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.
23 We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:
(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens. (b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language. (c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich. Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.
24 We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.
The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle:
COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD
25 In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.
The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.
The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives. | |
The highlifgted parts are almost identical to your utopic and mandatory communism, it's funny how despite the color and ideology all totalitarism is similar.
Lets stay agreeing with music because your post is simply unbelievable.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 08 2007 at 22:13
|
|
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 21:33 |
Chus wrote:
BTW Ivan getting back on subject isn't what Chavez is doing here the same Velasco did in Peru? I'm sure Peruvians know more about Chavez than us Venezuelans
Let us remind the military coup attempt lead by Chavez in 1992. Had he succeeded, he would had been Velasco II |
Well Velazco at least was a dictator who accepted was a dictator.
Velazco overthroned Fernando Belaunde Terry with the army, declared himself President of the Revolutionary Governent. of the Army Forces (Govierno Revolucionario de las Fuerzas Armadas).
The first thing he did was to tnationalize the International Petroleum Company from the USA administration, of course this was a robbery because there was no payment for the machinery or stoicks.We had oil before Velazco...After his Government not.
He then took all the Media and named General Editors, sent to prison every owner of media except those who sold their line or the ones who escaped.
He declared an Agrarian Reform, took the farms from their owners without any payment, it was the worst thing ever happened, our agriculture collapsed. In two years Perú was buying POTATO from Czechoslovakia. we were N° 4 in the world in sugar before him, then we dissapeared from the charts..
The people who recieved the cattle ate it in 6 months instead of making it grow and in a year we were buying meat from USSR. The peasants ate everything and in 2 years a migration started because there was no Agriculture, Lima passed from 4 million citizens to 8 million lumped in Pueblos Jovenes (ghettos) that didn't existed before Velazco.
He took the fishing Industry for the state when we were N° 1 even over Japan, when he left we were bellow the N° 100.
Stole the money from the Banks, forcing people to sell their dollars at a controlled price (Those found with dollars were sent to prison) when the real price was 50 times higher, so if you had US$ 10,000.00 in the bank, the next day you received US$ 200.00 in State Papers with no value.
It was a mess, we were isolated from the international community, we almost had a war with Chile and another one with Ecuador. He banned Rock & Roll as a form of Yankee imperialism, prohibited the teaching of English in public schools and forced to teach Quechua, an almost dissapeared language.
Wven the language used by both is similar, those who defend freedom of speech are not called Anti Venezuelans or Anti Peruvians, they are called Anti Revolutionaries as if the Revolution was a supreme value over the country.
The names of Bolivar sand Tupac Amaru started to be mentioned as our gods and of course Fidel Castro was a Continental hero.
Yes I see many similarities and if Chavez would had reached the Government in 1992, he wouuld had been exact.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 08 2007 at 21:37
|
|
|
|
Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 21:10 |
I have never taken part in the picking apart of argument's but I have seen it done and so will try.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
|
I haven’t heard such an example of Dialectic Determinism since the University and still believe it’s flawed.
OK
I read the manifesto of on my own, the school was not involved.
Well, we read it at school, but deeply in the University.
Good for you
Under true communism the workers elect a council of leaders, those leaders are still expected to work. Anyone who does not do work dosn't get to vote.
This is absurd, the vote is a political right inherent to the human being despite how productive he is, the human being is not an instrument of work, is a subject of natural and political rights that can’t be taken from him except for a criminal act and only some political rights.
Look if he chooses a diffrent society over the offitial one (that is based on productivity)than he isn't a part of the nation. last time I checked immigrants can only vote in the nation they are a member of.
The workers can withdraw a leader at any time,
Then prepare to be isolated from the world community, I wouldn’t sign a contract with a President, Chairman or whatever who can be removed at any moment.
there would be no president or chairman to sighn with only a council whose view as a whole unit would not shift because of one member being removed
Society needs a Governor elected for a determined period of time and the security that at the end of that period will abandon the office or be reelected by direct, personal and universal vote, that’s the minimum security required for investors and for treaties, you can’t sign a treaty or a contract with a guy that may be removed tomorrow and the follower ignore everything done by his predecessor.
But that only applies to the individual, and there would be no individual rule, only rule as a group.
It’s normal that a Governor looses a great percentage of popularity during some moment of his government, so you would have changes every week, but the followers of this removed leader will fight to keep him and you will have revolutions every day.
The consequence is that the system would fail because of it’s own contradictions.
And democracy doesn't?
and as there is no army except the militia of the workers there is nothing that the council can do to stop them.
The workers as a mass don’t have the capacity to manage a militia, army and police to keep the peace are required.
of course they would be trained by the government but in the end the people would have the guns... if evryone worked than each person could work less time, leaving more time for such activities.
You are free to not be a communist and not support the system, but in doing so you are saying that the system does not need to support you ither, and because there is no tecnical government there is no one to get upset and feel the need to kill you.
In other words or you agree with us or go to hell.....And what if the people get tired of Communism?
Not to hell (that would be christianity) but to another country. I believe the US still takes in rejects at times.
Isn’t the obligation of a system to provide security for all the citizens and not only for the followers?
no. at least I dont think about it that way. is the purpose of a church to force evryone to come on sunday or is it for those who choose?
Wow no technical Government...Isn’t this anarchism? Who will represent the people? Who will sign the treaties?
Close. The people. an elected councle of the people.
This is a form of communism known as libretarian or council communism, it was a movement that was gaining strength before the revolution in russia, but the offitial party wiped it out.
This may work in small communities but not in a country.
how do you know? it has never been tried. worse comes to worse screw countries and have communities.
P.S. the revolution has not occured yet! there are sertain prerequisites that need to be met first, one being that the country that adopts the system should already be powerfull and not a dump in the first place.
Another flaw, Communism is a reaction of people in countries where things don’t run well, big countries with enough resources tend to step away from Communism, look at China, it was Communist until they got technology and now Communism is being abandoned.
they wern't actually communist, I thought I established that, and so the exsample does not apply Mao was a poser
The countries that thought they were products of the revolution have mainly been decades behind and poor as dirt.
Those are the only counties in which Communism has a chance to appear, where there’s an oppressed majority and social injustice, where most of the citizens don’t have enough to eat.
wow, and I thought there was a huge rebellion in paris not too long ago, the french are still a world power right?
If most people have a property and have a work, they won’t allow nobody to take what they have gained with their effort, so don’t expect Communism in powerful countries
this is why I hate N korea, china USSR etc. communism is suppost to be voluntary
In prosperous countries you will never find Communism, maybe Social Democracy or Euro Socialism, but Communism never.
not yet. the same could be and was said about democracy. Look at democracy in Iraq, people forget that in the beggining in the first election the people voted for sudam, people voted hitler into office also.
Iván
I know it will sound stupid from a communist but to see a good example of communism in the works look at the book of acts in the bible, another good example would be native americans or certain greek states (in antient times) |
|
I know I could argue with you all day and not change your mind. If you have questions PM me, otherwise this is just taking up space and will get no where.
edit: at least we can agree (to some extent) musically
Edited by Proletariat - June 08 2007 at 21:13
|
|
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
|
|
Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 20:50 |
BTW Ivan getting back on subject isn't what Chavez is doing here the same Velasco did in Peru? I'm sure Peruvians know more about Chavez than us Venezuelans
Let us remind the military coup attempt lead by Chavez in 1992. Had he succeeded, he would had been Velasco II
Edited by Chus - June 08 2007 at 20:55
|
|
Jesus Gabriel
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 20:18 |
Proletariat wrote:
|
I haven’t heard such an example of Dialectic Determinism since the University and still believe it’s flawed.
I read the manifesto of on my own, the school was not involved.
Well, we read it at school, but deeply in the University.
Under true communism the workers elect a council of leaders, those leaders are still expected to work. Anyone who does not do work dosn't get to vote.
This is absurd, the vote is a political right inherent to the human being despite how productive he is, the human being is not an instrument of work, is a subject of natural and political rights that can’t be taken from him except for a criminal act and only some political rights.
The workers can withdraw a leader at any time,
Then prepare to be isolated from the world community, I wouldn’t sign a contract with a President, Chairman or whatever who can be removed at any moment.
Society needs a Governor elected for a determined period of time and the security that at the end of that period will abandon the office or be reelected by direct, personal and universal vote, that’s the minimum security required for investors and for treaties, you can’t sign a treaty or a contract with a guy that may be removed tomorrow and the follower ignore everything done by his predecessor.
It’s normal that a Governor looses a great percentage of popularity during some moment of his government, so you would have changes every week, but the followers of this removed leader will fight to keep him and you will have revolutions every day.
The consequence is that the system would fail because of it’s own contradictions.
and as there is no army except the militia of the workers there is nothing that the council can do to stop them.
The workers as a mass don’t have the capacity to manage a militia, army and police to keep the peace are required.
You are free to not be a communist and not support the system, but in doing so you are saying that the system does not need to support you ither, and because there is no tecnical government there is no one to get upset and feel the need to kill you.
In other words or you agree with us or go to hell.....And what if the people get tired of Communism?
Isn’t the obligation of a system to provide security for all the citizens and not only for the followers?
Wow no technical Government...Isn’t this anarchism? Who will represent the people? Who will sign the treaties?
This is a form of communism known as libretarian or council communism, it was a movement that was gaining strength before the revolution in russia, but the offitial party wiped it out.
This may work in small communities but not in a country.
P.S. the revolution has not occured yet! there are sertain prerequisites that need to be met first, one being that the country that adopts the system should already be powerfull and not a dump in the first place.
Another flaw, Communism is a reaction of people in countries where things don’t run well, big countries with enough resources tend to step away from Communism, look at China, it was Communist until they got technology and now Communism is being abandoned.
The countries that thought they were products of the revolution have mainly been decades behind and poor as dirt.
Those are the only counties in which Communism has a chance to appear, where there’s an oppressed majority and social injustice, where most of the citizens don’t have enough to eat.
If most people have a property and have a work, they won’t allow nobody to take what they have gained with their effort, so don’t expect Communism in powerful countries
In prosperous countries you will never find Communism, maybe Social Democracy or Euro Socialism, but Communism never.
Iván |
|
|
|
|
Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 17:41 |
Chus wrote:
Certainly there was no pure communism anywhere as far as I know; often the ones in power were the capitalists; how can that be if they're all supposed to be equal?. It's also a paradox that the chavecists (functionaries and benefactors) are the new oligarchy and they are the ones who constantly bash oligarcs |
if we never try real communism, then how can we jump to the conclusion that it doesn't work?
|
|
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
|
|
Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 17:37 |
IVNORD wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
as my forum name may imply I am a communist.
Your entire post implies that you’re in a good frame of mind. As the worst case scenario, it shows that assigning the Manifesto for the summer reading program is a bad idea.
I find it extremly dissapointing that all these countries call themself communist as well, but I doubt that Chavez ever read the manifesto, and if he did he did not understand it, or more likly did not care. He is pushing people further into poverty rather than pulling them out, the exact opposite of Marx's plan. The manifesto supports free elections, where are they, it does not support dictatorship. The systems that now call themself communist are trully just capitalism with extreme taxes, this is not how it was ment to be.
Cavez, You are the bourgoise, you are the pig. And they could not tell the diffrence between the pigs and the farmers.
|
|
I read the manifesto of on my own, the school was not involved.
Under true communism the workers elect a council of leaders, those leaders are still expected to work. Anyone who does not do work dosn't get to vote. The workers can withdraw a leader at any time, and as there is no army except the militia of the workers there is nothing that the council can do to stop them. You are free to not be a communist and not support the system, but in doing so you are saying that the system does not need to support you ither, and because there is no tecnical government there is no one to get upset and feel the need to kill you.
This is a form of communism known as libretarian or council communism, it was a movement that was gaining strength before the revolution in russia, but the offitial party wiped it out.
P.S. the revolution has not occured yet! there are sertain prerequisites that need to be met first, one being that the country that adopts the system should already be powerfull and not a dump in the first place. The countries that thought they were products of the revolution have mainly been decades behind and poor as dirt.
|
|
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
|
|
Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 16:34 |
|
Certainly there was no pure communism anywhere as far as I know; often the ones in power were the capitalists; how can that be if they're all supposed to be equal?. It's also a paradox that the chavecists (functionaries and benefactors) are the new oligarchy and they are the ones who constantly bash oligarcs
|
|
Jesus Gabriel
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 13:58 |
Proletariat wrote:
as my forum name may imply I am a communist.
Your entire post implies that you’re in a good frame of mind. As the worst case scenario, it shows that assigning the Manifesto for the summer reading program is a bad idea.
I find it extremly dissapointing that all these countries call themself communist as well, but I doubt that Chavez ever read the manifesto, and if he did he did not understand it, or more likly did not care. He is pushing people further into poverty rather than pulling them out, the exact opposite of Marx's plan. The manifesto supports free elections, where are they, it does not support dictatorship. The systems that now call themself communist are trully just capitalism with extreme taxes, this is not how it was ment to be.
Cavez, You are the bourgoise, you are the pig. And they could not tell the diffrence between the pigs and the farmers.
|
|
|
Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 13:32 |
as my forum name may imply I am a communist. I find it extremly dissapointing that all these countries call themself communist as well, but I doubt that Chavez ever read the manifesto, and if he did he did not understand it, or more likly did not care. He is pushing people further into poverty rather than pulling them out, the exact opposite of Marx's plan. The manifesto supports free elections, where are they, it does not support dictatorship. The systems that now call themself communist are trully just capitalism with extreme taxes, this is not how it was ment to be.
Cavez, You are the bourgoise, you are the pig. And they could not tell the diffrence between the pigs and the farmers.
|
|
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 13:16 |
Chus wrote:
Of course, we like to debate but the point is that if the judges in the debate are all against you (yes, the congress belongs to Chavez's allies only) there's no point, that's exactly my point
they always favour the other part while they keep repeating how imperialists, coup mongers and manipulated we are, and how this is a social class fight (while we try to be inclusive in our fight, and there are poor and rich, black and white together in this protest) the way Chavez and his minions always do; what they prepared in the congress was a circus practically, and we would had been even more bashed , that why the best thing to do was to leave that assembly... and debate on more neutral grounds.
And thanks for the good wishes, I indeed am trying to keep up on studies, though I'm thinking of switching careers. In any case this is also about our professional future, because Chavez also wants to intervene in the superior education system, trying to force his ideology on it Stick to education and ignore ideology of any stripe |
|
|
Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 12:21 |
Of course, we like to debate but the point is that if the judges in the debate are all against you (yes, the congress belongs to Chavez's allies only) there's no point, they always favour the other part while they keep repeating how imperialists, coup mongers and manipulated we are, and how this is a social class fight (while we try to be inclusive in our fight, and there are poor and rich, black and white together in this protest) the way Chavez and his minions always do; what they prepared in the congress was a circus practically, and we would had been even more bashed , that why the best thing to do was to leave that assembly... and debate on more neutral grounds.
And thanks for the good wishes, I indeed am trying to keep up on studies, though I'm thinking of switching careers. In any case this is also about our professional future, because Chavez also wants to intervene in the superior education system, trying to force his ideology on it
|
|
Jesus Gabriel
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 11:45 |
Chus wrote:
Yes, as there are many pro-Chavez people protesting, this is not a political protest; the government, however, wants people to think so. That's why they did yesterday's debate charade, in a congress of just one political colour (red), and the defenders of Chavez's decision feeling like home talking about everything but what we are reclaiming, which is to be respected and treated as equal. We (the students in general) didn't want to debate in a one-colour assembly but in students' assemblies |
Chus, debating is good. It develops logical thinking, rhetorical skills and speech in general. It will lead you nowhere politically but at least there will be no broken bones or smashed faces. And don’t neglect your studies. Later in life it will prove to be more important than debating. Stay safe man.
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 11:42 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
The Bay of Pigs was a reaction to Fidel’s export of communism. The US considers Latin America too close to home.>> I know and all of the Latino unfortunately know this, but the US has no business interferring there, but has been for over 200 years. Much of the Communists regime in Latin America were reaction to US exploitation. You look at it from the morality side. I just state the facts and leave the morality alone. The Big money is immoral but it moves the world. It interferes in Latin America as much as it does in Europe and elsewhere. Fighting it is like trying to stop a huge millstone - it wioll crush you. I can't stand human misery but all i can do is just close my eyes not to see it and try to stay out of that misery. Because I know there will always be poor and exploited people. And I know first hand how bad and humiliating poverty is.
I think it’s still in effect due to the Cuban lobby in the US, they want no less than returning home and getting all their property back. >> Indeed, this is more likely the cause. And Cuba's worst fears also: the returning of the mafia that set the brothels, and casinos. I fear it for them as well. Those Cubans in Miami are anything but nice. Your judgement is too harsh. Lots of decent people left Cuba, middle class and poor ones. I don't think their claims to their property are illegitimate. Whatever they had, a country house or a cigar factory. Would you consider confiscating you 9-year old car a fair act? (unless your sick of the gasoline prices and want to get rid of it anyway)
The seeds of today’s trouble were sown by Clinton. He was a disastrous president. >> strangely the world does not see him as disastrous. Personally he's the best I can remember ahead of Carter. Dont' start please. He was clever enough to disguise it as a great achievement. He created the economic bubble we're still in for the only purpose to be re-elected. His policies led us to the Iraq war.
That's all I ask, wait and see, most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat Not sure about that, but as long as he plays by the rules (unlike Fidel) he will be allowed to say whatever he wants. >> I actually wish he would also let others say what they want. I don't like his closing down newspaper and TV chains. They attack him probably unfairly and are a nuisance to his politics (which I still be are generous), but closing them down is a mistake. He should act like they are useless and the size of a mosquito, but probably that they are too dangerous for him to ignore.
Were I Venezuelan, and supporting Chavez, I'd probably protest the closures as well. Again, I meant it differently. The rules are - don't interrupt the oil supplies. Then nobody will touch him.
If you don't look at things from the economy perspective, you will continue to confuse the primary and the secondary.
|
|
|
|
Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 10:31 |
|
Yes, as there are many pro-Chavez people protesting, this is not a political protest; the government, however, wants people to think so. That's why they did yesterday's debate charade, in a congress of just one political colour (red), and the defenders of Chavez's decision feeling like home talking about everything but what we are reclaiming, which is to be respected and treated as equal. We (the students in general) didn't want to debate in a one-colour assembly but in students' assemblies
Edited by Chus - June 08 2007 at 10:37
|
|
Jesus Gabriel
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
|
Posted: June 08 2007 at 05:48 |
IVNORD wrote:
OK, I agree with you enough on the general historics to avoid nitpicking on details
You seem to be tired. Attrition has never been my strategy. >> Not tired, but I think everything's been said in that direction that can be useful (unless we get down to rethorics), and this is supposed to be about Venezuela (not that it's stopped us before), not about global ecomics and industrial revolution
The Bay of Pigs was a reaction to Fidel’s export of communism. The US considers Latin America too close to home.>> I know and all of the Latino unfortunately know this, but the US has no business interferring there, but has been for over 200 years. Much of the Communists regime in Latin America were reaction to US exploitation. But whatever the reason, you must agree that nuclear annihilation of an entire country is a very drastic solution. >> In French, we say, la réponse du berger à la bergère >> roughly translate to: Tit For Tat
(just to resist this implacable US machine for 50 years is an incredible achievement, Achievement? At what cost? >> A weird sort of imperfect Freedom maybe?, Before they were gopher for Mafiosi and US citizens' vices
I attack him viciously with his stupid 12-hours marathon speeches, his cult personality complex etc...
You forgot to include his abuse of power. >> Indeed if you want to add more charges, be my guest, Castro's probably guyilty of those to.
He could have been an idealist in the beginning (from what I’ve read about him) but power corrupts. >> I think in some weird way, he's still an idealist (so was Hitler, but Hitler's ideals were not generous and about equality), but his idealism lead him to crimes against humanity
I think it’s still in effect due to the Cuban lobby in the US, they want no less than returning home and getting all their property back. >> Indeed, this is more likely the cause. And Cuba's worst fears also: the returning of the mafia that set the brothels, and casinos. I fear it for them as well. Those Cubans in Miami are anything but nice.
The seeds of today’s trouble were sown by Clinton. He was a disastrous president. >> strangely the world does not see him as disastrous. Personally he's the best I can remember ahead of Carter. Bush made it worse instead of fixing it.
That's all I ask, wait and see, most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat Not sure about that, but as long as he plays by the rules (unlike Fidel) he will be allowed to say whatever he wants. >> I actually wish he would also let others say what they want. I don't like his closing down newspaper and TV chains. They attack him probably unfairly and are a nuisance to his politics (which I still be are generous), but closing them down is a mistake. He should act like they are useless and the size of a mosquito, but probably that they are too dangerous for him to ignore.
Were I Venezuelan, and supporting Chavez, I'd probably protest the closures as well.
|
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: June 07 2007 at 21:20 |
Sean Trane wrote:
And Varadero is hardly the image Cuba gives of itself in European tour agencies, and is almost the furthest away from the general situation of the country. |
Probably uis a marketing strategy, the two times I went to Varadero (1999 amnd 2003) it was full of Latin Americans and Canadians, they prepared this resorts for people who want to stay away from reality for a week or two (All included so you don't have to go outside the hotel) and far from La Habana (I had to rent a motorcycle to take the money to this nice lady her daughter had given me in Lima).
They also probably discovered Europe people use family packages, so they prepare a different set of entertaintment for all the family that includes tourism, a place to leave the kids alone and more calmed (Probably more expensive).
That's called marketing.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 07 2007 at 21:22
|
|
|
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
|
Posted: June 07 2007 at 18:07 |
stonebeard wrote:
I buy my cocaine straight from the farmers. Those cartels are just plain greedy.
|
Heck , I know people who cut out the farmer for a certain kind of weed.  They seem to have a lot of friends now. 
|
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Venezuela and Freedom of Speech.
