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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557

Posted: June 05 2007 at 01:30

Just in case you don't believe Sean:

Cuba for cubans:

Of course they say there are no homeless!!!!

Regular store in Downtoan Havana, only for Cubans

Still people trust in cupons for rations

Cuba for turists, no Cubans allowed:

And they say:

La Revolución marcha bien, sigamos adelante (The Revolution is OK, lets go on!!!!!!!!)

I honestly won't go back until this ends, it's terrible.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 05 2007 at 01:32

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 05 2007 at 07:44

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

How can I fight such bad faith.

I could've gone on and discussed point by point, but claiming everything goes to Fidel is not only but it dircredits the rest of your post >> the drops that overflows the bucket

. No offence meant, Ivàn.

Who do you believe the money goes Sean? >> it goes into the running of the system, which is terribly inefficient, no one ever said the contrary.

To the Government ruled by Fidel with no elections for almost 5 decades, for the person that ruined the country. You're making Castro sound like he's ripping his people off and lives in palaces like Saddam Hussein did with huge cars and private militias. If that was the case, the whole planet would know and the Bush administration and the Miami Cubans would definitely exploit this.

Or do you believe the hotels go to Cuba to make them a favour? No Sean they pay huge amounts of money to earn more money and where it goes? The people don't see it, they live worst each day. >> it goes into the inefficient system and the renovation of roads and historical buildings. You one-sided photo montage forgot to show those newly renovated Batista haciendas nd the new buildings were Cubans are allowed. You're sounding like you are of the Bush administration and systematically avoiding the other side of the picture.

Cuba is certainly not perfect: I'd say they are in an unenviable position, and I would not like being Cuban, but most of what's wrong there (outside Castro himself) is due to foreign elements (you know the huge country the size of a continent that swore it would eradicate the tiny island).

No Sean is caused by a person who offered to throw a dictator and turned himself in a worst one. >>> He's certainly no worse than Battista was. Battista was almost a slave enforcer, the country was a puppet of the US, where casina and brothels were the only thing working beside the tobacco industry. Why do you think Castro is still in place? Because the Cuban people know the ones looking to down him would start this slaver all over again. The Cubans of Miami and Cosa Nostra >> no difference. Look how Miami has become a crime capital of the US, and no wonder Cubans don't want them to return.

They'd rather be poor, not exactly free than belong under a Battistan regime again. Or else they'd have overturned a long time ago a joke of an army that parades on bikes to save gas and grossly under-equipped.

When the Peruvian Embassy was invaded many Cubands came here, some honest people who put little restaurants at the beach and I clearly remember one of them telling me things were worst today than when Batista was President. CUBA WAS A CLOSED WHOREHOUSE FOR KKK MEMBERS UNDER BATTISTA!!!

I don't hold much esteem for Castro or other dictatorian regimes, but I noticed there are always threads about Cuba and other Communist-tending regime, but I have yet to read something on Panama's regime (just to mention that one >> Salvador or Honduras anyone???

No ????

I thought so!!!

Betcha the Panameans are as hungry and don't live quite as long as Cubans.

Not saying the world is perfect, but Cuba has enough resources to stay out of the terrible destiny they are facing, the Tourism industry is millionare, but the money stays in the Government not in the people who need it. OK Ivàn!!! , please tell this ignorant geopolitical freak exactly what resources Cuba has!!! That is outside sugar (the prices are so low), the best tobacco (that is not allowed in the biggest market) and beaches. There are no mineral riches to speak off and the cheap labour cannot be exploited by foreign companies if they open up a factory there, the firm automatically loses the US market. Don't you see the whole thing is done so that Cuba can't work? Cuba surviving this evil set up is a daily miracle.

As for my brother and cousin (female, two kids and not lesbian, so she's not going for the cheap sex), I've seen the pictures of their travel and they usually travel the way I do >> they avoid palaces. They didn't go there to play pancakes on the beach or screw Cuban hookers/housewives/single girls, they visited the country from favellas to those Batista-regime mansions (being renovated to accomodates rich capitalists clients who want to get cheap but healthy hookers and spend as little as possible) with their whole families, they always felt safe and the kids came back knowing what a poor country looks like, and they are very much appreciative of how European democracies work.

Most surely your brother don't Sean or his family, but again, >> Cuba has been a family destination for the last 15 years from Europe I been there, and most people is young and go for cheap pleasure. >> Hang on those luxury hotels are for foreigner only so the whores, can't get in. You make yourself sound like you went to Cuba for cheap sex and got beaten by a jealous husband. You sure you paid the hooker at all? >>> just a quick jab below your belt here

Thanks for the selfishness of my brother

Again, your brother went with his family, but that's not the general rule. >> it is more the rule than the exception. And I never read posts where you denounce Thailand for this >>> Oh wait Thailand is a US ally, they can do no wrong, right???!!!

Most of the hotels in Varadero don't accept people younger than 16 years old, so the system is defined for people wanting to have cheap fun, that's how they created it with the knowledge of the Government. >> this is to avoid under-aged prostitution and allow those dirty exploiters to act without shame. most hotels would be completely stupid not to allow families. Evenb a lawyer can understand that!!!

BTW, for a colleague of mine told me yesterday that his holidays in Dominica cost him 20% more than his Cuban holidays (not 140% as you say), but he was constantly advised not to wander from the beaten path. Which means he was unable to visit the place and actually see how the people lived.

Let me tell you something, I been in Cuba and went as I told you to the Havana Café (A night club) with a couple, we paid US$ 10.00 each and had free bar all night, in Cancún a good discoteque or Night Club is not cheaper than $ 200.00 per couple probably much more, in Puerto Plata we're talking about US$ 150.00 minimum, so there's a difference. >> Ivàn, feel free to check tour operators departring from Europe and check out the price for a two week holiday for four (two kids) and compare prices between Dominica and Cuba, including the plane fare. The whole thing is almost the same price and knowing Dominica is dangerous for families and Cuba is safe for families , the choice is evident.

I don't go for prostitution or similar, but I go to have a good time, not all day in the hotel drinking Piña Coladas or Mohitos, my budget is limited, so I go to where I can afford and beleive me it was much cheaper in Cuba than anywhere else I been. >> I'm not even goinfg to touch that one with a ten-foot pole!!! Too easy, and you'll get upset!!

He is a diver and dreams of retiring in Jamaica, and has shown me the ghetto he wants to retire in >> a fortress. Listen to 10CC's Bloody Tourists. There are places in most of the island where they kill you for just having a little too whiter shade of pale, even if you don't hve a present from your mother to take away.

Jamaica is a hell in comparison with other countries, not being rich I usually go to hotels with all included system, and always been told to avoid Jamaica, but this doesn't make Cuba better, Compare Cuba to what's comparable >> neighbouring countries is fair, comparing it to California is not!!! What bugs the Anti Castrist is that nopt only Cuba is still alive, but it is faring better than Haiti, Jamaica, Dominica.

This is also similar for Nicaragua fariung as well as US friendly Hoinduras and Salvador or Panama (who should be doing well since they recuperated the canal, but they are not doing better>> I on't read a single line from you even when I bring the subject)

Now your ~~brother~~ colleague is a diver, he's a special case please, like the surfer who wants to retoire in the most lonely part of Hawai to enjoy the life they love, but that's not the case of most peope. Hundreds of place where you can dive other than the Carribeans. But divers are usually males travelling in groups and looking for cheap sex. My colleague makes no exception to that. This is why he wants to retire in Jamaica.

On my second trip to Cuba I took money to a woman from her daughter and saw how they lived, I was in their house, I was invited to eat the little they had to offer, the people is very nice and gentle, they don't deserve that. >>> In Dominica they would've robbed you blind and in Jamaica, YOU'd have been the supper!!! Jamaicans, Panameans, Guatemaleans, Dominicans, Venezuellians and Peruvians all deserve MUCH better. And it will be fine once a certain country stop meddling in what they consider THEIR backyard.

Until this crime ends, I will not go back becausre the money doesn't go for the people as you will see in the next post.

Iván

Hugues

Does this start to appear like the good old times or is it just me?

You get the red for communists

Edited by Sean Trane - June 05 2007 at 07:47

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 05 2007 at 09:43

IVNORD wrote:

Sean, you don’t have to be so defensive (as I’ve said before I like radicals and liberals as they are usually honest but thoroughly confused, unrealistic and naïve) . You accused markosherrera of spreading rumors. If you prefer TV programs to eyewitness accounts it’s your business. I just pointed out that it looks a bit arrogant. I don’t doubt you wishing them all the best. And I see you showng much warmth in you last post because of her leftist stand I guess.

I don't know where you get this radical bit again. I may be an idealist, but radical implicates extremism and I don't like it one bit. I'm a leftist that has voted always to the left, but never communist >>>generally I vote for Ecologists which are leftists as well.

And if you check the political thread in the Poll section, I stated that I am considering voting for the first time on the right side, because the Belgian left has now become the problem more than the the possible and hopeful solution. Not that I intend to become a capitalist (rest assured!!!

) but I want to send the socialist party in the opposition, so they can throw the rotten apples out (I would add more "esses" to apples because there are way too many rotten fruits in the bushell) and find themselves again.

Wishful thinking as they (Socialists) will probably come out ahead and throw the liberals (entrepreneurial right wing) in the oppositions, but I must be at peace with myself.

I have written two articles to be published (this week still) calling for an end to the socialists' "main mise"into poor areas, where they just assist them "needy" into being lazy and expect given money undued from highjacked real programs instead of bettering themselves.

What Cuban crises? Circa 1962? As you said, we don't know any better, whether be you or I as to the inner doings of the White house, so I wouldn’t be so sure to state that they are worried about Cuba every day. They may, they may not. The evidence suggests they don’t. Castro is like a fly on the wall. Not only he can’t send Che Guevarra on a mission or go as a willing mercenary to Africa any longer, he can barely buy enough gasoline to keep his tanks and planes running. Ever since the Soviet supplies of everything stopped flowing, he became a nuisance. (funny, they shipped stuff to him to support his sorry ass in exchange for sugar which they bought at inflated prices to create an appearance of balanced books. But whenever Cuba coulnd’t meet their production quotas, Castro would buy sugar at the world market and re-sell it to the Russians, nice business ethics). Even the liberal media in the US can’t report anything positive on Cuba, although the negativities they mention are presented with an air of sympathy and more like misfortunes than calamities caused by Castro regime. And from what I hear, “the sources from documentaries and others TV programs” you’re watching have a reputation as dubious as the left-wing clowns accompanying their communist bosses on their vacation trips to the USSR some 40-50 years ago. When they were shown facilities at the exclusive party resorts, which rank and file could not even imagine existed in their wildest dreams. Then they presented it to westerners as a great advantage of socialism. Quite similar to the programs on Cuba you enjoy watching. And please stop this paranoid nonsense about the CIA plotting against Chavez. He will do the job himself with all the crap he’s doing. The CIA is not as sinister as it used to be. It’s a mere shadow of its former self thanks to Clinton who turned it in just another government bureaucracy. That’s why we missed N. Korea, India and Pakistan acquiring nuclear arms and had other disasters ranging from the blasting of the embassies in Africa to 9/11 to the war in Iraq.

I can tell you that Bush is still worrying everyday about Cuba (even if Cuba is not even a fly in the US safety worries), because he owes it to the Cuban mafia ruling Miami. Remember that Bush got elected with Florida (and his brother is almso the guv there). Do you remember also that the whole planet knew that Bush would be elected because of Florida? I wonder how that's possible that this was foreseen two weeks ahead of elections.

IVNORD wrote:

This is all just nice and spirited talk similar to that of liberal professors in US universities. While condemning imperialism, they don’t bother to acknowledge the fact that their well-being (even the chance to criticize) is a product of that imperialism. They talk about poor coffee farmers in Guatemala while sipping coffee in their air-conditioned classrooms without realizing they would have had to pick those coffee beans themselves if not for those farmers.

Two downnotes: 1- it is giving a bit too easily a good conscience while retaining my almost "bourgeois" (self-derision her) lifestyle 2- the quality is not always that good and uneven from one pack to the other.

Here’s a bit of reality. Yes, Amerindians are people too but the global economy doesn’t have a proper place for them yet, like it or not.>>> It looks like in the US, the Amerindians are now finding their niches (even if they live off those friggin Casinos). My idea is to really integrate them in modern society, not by being Amerindians reserves museum display, but by sharing the wealth of the soils they occupy. Nigeria (and Darfour in Sudan) is always taking the richness of the soil (oil in both cases) but instead of sharing the wealth (by offering them jobs, for ex) the pipeline sully the land and the petrol leaves the place and there is no return. This could be avoided in the yet largely unexploited interor of Venezuela Orinoco valley. I still believe Chavez is honest about this, being of Amerindian styock himself. Although he dons the military vest, he left the army a long time ago, having himself participated in a coup in the early 90's.

If history is any guidance, just some 100 years ago, workers all throughout the world lived no better than coffee farmers today. Yet it wasn’t the class struggle, street fighting or benevolent rulers who changed it, but advances in technology and science and the mass markets (read the Economy). The increases in industrial output produced the need for mass consumption and increase of buying power of the working class to become the mass consumer. >>> What a short circuit you take, my fiend>> you get disqualified in a F1 grand prix for skipping half the circuit

)!! how do you get mass consumption if the working class doesn't have the money to spend. The working class managed to get the money because of minimal wages, regular and limited working time frames, Vacation pay as well as the time for the vacation. >> these were not offered to the workers graciously by the employers, it had to be torn away from them by left wingers, yet the bosses are still as rich nowadays, but at least the middlke and working classes are not thinking about revolution anymore. So sharing suits the capitalist as well.

Since there’s no need today in Guatemalan farmer becoming a mass consumer, there;s nothing you can do about it.What!!!

And if the farmer got correct price for his coffee, not being strangled by the speculator (who is sitting in world trade center towers, counting away his billions acquired at the expense of Guatemaleans farmers), he'd have money to spare to become a consumer, buy stuff in his country and get the economy a boost

At best, you can try to educate them, but you will have to part with all the niceties provided by the European socialism, which too, by the way, lives nicely at the expense of the third world. Actually if it was up to right wing politics alone, the help towards third world countries would quickly be dcreased by 90% ot its actual level, unless there was a return in it for them

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: June 05 2007 at 13:00

Sean Trane wrote:

[

>> it goes into the running of the system, which is terribly inefficient, no one ever said the contrary.

No Sean, apparently goes to:

The Cuban companies (Which appear in no Cuban registry) in the Free Zone of Panama with US$ 300'000,000 of capital. The money has been moved with signature of Delia Soto, Viklma Espin, Raul Castro and his sons.
Raul Castro owns the monopoly of stock change.
The Private Illiuchin Jet with a price of US$ 100'000,000
The private flete oof Mercedes that Fidel doesbn't hide.
Ramon Castro has an extense agricultural Province i n Valle de la Picadura

Source: http://www.contrapeso.info/articulos.php?id_sec=5&id_art=1930

You're making Castro sound like he's ripping his people off and lives in palaces like Saddam Hussein did with huge cars and private militias. If that was the case, the whole planet would know and the Bush administration and the Miami Cubans would definitely exploit this

The whole planet knows, Fidel has a 2,500 bodyguard fleete and his brother Raul is very similar, but of course being Cubans there's no money invoilved or very little.

To the Government ruled by Fidel with no elections for almost 5 decades, for the person that ruined the country.

>> it goes into the inefficient system and the renovation of roads and historical buildings. You one-sided photo montage forgot to show those newly renovated Batista haciendas nd the new buildings were Cubans are allowed. You're sounding like you are of the Bush administration and systematically avoiding the other side of the picture.

Sean I been there, nobody told me, those hotels are not buit oin Bartsta haciendas, most ofthem were created from nothing in the extense shore Cuba has.

The city is a mess, nobody toldd me, I seen it personally.

>>> He's certainly no worse than Battista was. Battista was almost a slave enforcer, the country was a puppet of the US, where casina and brothels were the only thing working beside the tobacco industry. Why do you think Castro is still in place? Because the Cuban people know the ones looking to down him would start this slaver all over again. The Cubans of Miami and Cosa Nostra >> no difference. Look how Miami has become a crime capital of the US, and no wonder Cubans don't want them to return.

Nobody says that Batista or Somoza were great men, but this doesn't justify and endless dictatorship of 5 decades with very klittle or bno respect for human rights.

CUBA WAS A CLOSED WHOREHOUSE FOR KKK MEMBERS UNDER BATTISTA!!!

Now is an open whorehouse

OK Ivàn!!! , please tell this ignorant geopolitical freak exactly what resources Cuba has!!! That is outside sugar (the prices are so low), the best tobacco (that is not allowed in the biggest market) and beaches. There are no mineral riches to speak off and the cheap labour cannot be exploited by foreign companies if they open up a factory there, the firm automatically loses the US market. Don't you see the whole thing is done so that Cuba can't work? Cuba surviving this evil set up is a daily miracle.

I don't deny the USA embargo has made the situation worst, but Turism alone is enough resource to survive, Ciuba is a paradise, there's is sugar, there is Tobacco, Coffee, etc that could reach the restof the woirld if Fidel leaves

>> Cuba has been a family destination for the last 15 years from Europe

If you ever went to Varadero you will notice almost no kids, people is between lets say 20 and 50, this is not a family destiny.

>> Hang on those luxury hotels are for foreigner only so the whores, can't get in. You make yourself sound like you went to Cuba for cheap sex and got beaten by a jealous husband. You sure you paid the hooker at all? >>> just a quick jab below your belt here

No cuban woman can enter to a hotel Sean, seems you don't know that, but it's one of the most strict laws there. I never been with a hooker in my whole life, this is offensive, yes I got involved with a tourist in the hotel on my first trip (In the second one I went with a girlfriend) and honestly being single I can do whatever I want with my life, but this doesn't mean I would get near a hooker.

If it was Cuban hooker probably the poor husband woukld had never known because as I said NO CUBANS ARE ALLOWED IN THE HOTELS AND THAT'S STRICT.

During the second trip I was in the Mellia Hotel while in the Super Club there was a Single Convention for people around the world, they didn't required a hooker, all the people had gone for fun, I met a group of Peruvians in La Havana and they told me they had a wild travel without ever leaving the hotel and without local people.

> it is more the rule than the exception. And I never read posts where you denounce Thailand for this >>> Oh wait Thailand is a US ally, they can do no wrong, right???!!!

I never been in Thailand Sean, but I'm against any form of prostitution in any part ff the world, more if minors are involved.

>> this is to avoid under-aged prostitution and allow those dirty exploiters to act without shame. most hotels would be completely stupid not to allow families. Evenb a lawyer can understand that!!!

It's like the hotels during Spring Break in Florida, their business is not in the families, only that in Varadero lasts all year.

The hortels in the city, those that charge you for everything you eat or drink, admit kids becaiuse they hava a family business.

BTW: Varadero hotels are 100% full all the year with no kids, only couples or singles, no problem with underage prostitution because as I said NO CUBANS ARE ALLOWED IN TH HOTELS, under or over age.

. >> Ivàn, feel free to check tour operators departring from Europe and check out the price for a two week holiday for four (two kids) and compare prices between Dominica and Cuba, including the plane fare. The whole thing is almost the same price and knowing Dominica is dangerous for families and Cuba is safe for families , the choice is evident.

The hotel issue is the same, all included system, but as I repeated twice, if you leave the hotel and go to any turistic place the prices are around 10% or 20% the proice in any other destiny.

. >> I'm not even goinfg to touch that one with a ten-foot pole!!! Too easy, and you'll get upset!!

What's strange? Can't you go to a good restaurant, a disco or a Cabarette without having to pay $ 500, I don't go to sleep at 8:00 PM and stay all day in the beach, I could do that in Puerto Palmeras im my own country.

This doesn't mean I go for prostitution.

, Compare Cuba to what's comparable >> neighbouring countries is fair, comparing it to California is not!!! What bugs the Anti Castrist is that nopt only Cuba is still alive, but it is faring better than Haiti, Jamaica, Dominica.

Despite all the problems, their situation is not as terrible as the Cuban and more important they are not used as an example of a system siupposedly fair and with respect for human rights.

Hundreds of place where you can dive other than the Carribeans. But divers are usually males travelling in groups and looking for cheap sex. My colleague makes no exception to that. This is why he wants to retire in Jamaica.

Welll, Jamaica is a destiny to be avoided as I told you before.

>>> In Dominica they would've robbed you blind and in Jamaica, YOU'd have been the supper!!! Jamaicans, Panameans, Guatemaleans, Dominicans, Venezuellians and Peruvians all deserve MUCH better. And it will be fine once a certain country stop meddling in what they consider THEIR backyard.

That's something I will give to Cuba, seccurity for the tourist, you are sure you're not going to be robbed because the laws to protect their basic resource of dollars are absolutely Draconian.

Does this start to appear like the good old times or is it just me?

Yes, it looks like the good old past, but please, don't accuse me of fomenting prostitution because that was cheap, I believe it's a business so dirty it has to be banned around the world, including Thailand where is an industry

You get the red for communists

No, I leave you that one

Iván

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: June 05 2007 at 19:08

Even as there is theorically an embargo, I don't see it much objectively. How do people get a handful of those cuban cigars, for example?

Jesus Gabriel

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 05 2007 at 23:41

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Wishful thinking as they (Socialists) will probably come out ahead and throw the liberals (entrepreneurial right wing) in the oppositions, but I must be at peace with myself.

Here the Radical is everything to the left of the Liberals who include Kerry, Kennedy and both Clintons, all of various shades of liberalism but far from the extreme left. Radical has a few shades too. You probably fit the extreme left bordering on the radical. I said it rather jokingly, but if it offends you, I apologize.

Sean, all this sounds like silly chatter (or cheap propaganda, take your pick). I will address Cuba later but you’re confused about the Florida affair. I’d never heard before the elections that Bush would be elected because of Florida per se. Florida is a key state, as well as Ohio. As you know, initially Gore was proclaimed the winner, and then it went into a limbo with the re-counts for a few weeks. BTW I voted for him, the only time when I voted FOR a candidate, not AGAINST the other one.

IVNORD wrote:

Not being a coffee drinker (but a major tea drinker, though), I could get off easily from thisubject, but I won't. I always have a coffe pack in my house in case I have visitors (and once they leave, I give the coffee pack that remains to my girlfriend who drinks it no problems) and its brandname is Max Havelaar. This is superficial too. Substitute tea or any other commodity, even Germanium, for coffee . BTW, for the purpose of this discussion, the coffee farmer equates to the Amerindian or any other exploited third world worker. It's about fair trade (the way Oxfam works too) and giving the most possible to the grower, while limiting the profits from the international brokers and speculators. will address it separately

Nigeria (and Darfour in Sudan) is always taking the richness of the soil (oil in both cases) but instead of sharing the wealth (by offering them jobs, for ex) the pipeline sully the land and the petrol leaves the place and there is no return. This could be avoided in the yet largely unexploited interor of Venezuela Orinoco valley. I still believe Chavez is honest about this, being of Amerindian styock himself. Although he dons the military vest, he left the army a long time ago, having himself participated in a coup in the early 90's. Hope he funnels his money to some European destination. It would be funny if he had a few bank accounts in the US.

)!! Alright my friend, it was a shortcut. I assumed you would get it in this synopsis form, but you imbedded some superficial details ommitin important ones. I will do a separate write-up on it. how do you get mass consumption if the working class doesn't have the money to spend. The working class managed to get the money because of minimal wages, regular and limited working time frames, Vacation pay as well as the time for the vacation. >> these were not offered to the workers graciously by the employers, it had to be torn away from them by left wingers, yet the bosses are still as rich nowadays, but at least the middlke and working classes are not thinking about revolution anymore. So sharing suits the capitalist as well.

Since there’s no need today in Guatemalan farmer becoming a mass consumer, there;s nothing you can do about it.What!!!

Sean, try to disconnect from your idealism for a moment and attempt to look at it from a different prospective. It may be another shortcut of mine, but it’s too primitive an interpretation of yours. Das Kapital is pretty happy with the current state of affairs, namely it sells all its stuff in, say, Belgium. Even with the present overproduction, the industrial world markets aren’t saturated enough to economically justify expansion into Guatemala, Salvador, etc. Some 50 years ago, Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan were in their place; some 30 years ago – Thailand, Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil. So there’s no stuff for the coffee farmer to buy in his country yet . It will be, but it’ a gradual process. And artificially high prices for coffee won't help now.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 06 2007 at 08:28

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Source: http://www.contrapeso.info/articulos.php?id_sec=5&id_art=1930

A Miami Cuban site.... You can do better than that slanted info. Just kidding.

The whole planet knows, Fidel has a 2,500 bodyguard fleete and his brother Raul is very similar, but of course being Cubans there's no money invoilved or very little. To the Government ruled by Fidel with no elections for almost 5 decades, for the person that ruined the country.

Presidential gards (and this is fairly small one, no doubt his Raul brotheruses the same gards) are absolutely not a Cuban specialty. No doubt this is the clique that holds the regime together just like every totalitarian regimes.

I suppose Fujimori had his own version of it or did he use the whole army as his personal bodygards?

>> it goes into the inefficient system and the renovation of roads and historical buildings. You one-sided photo montage forgot to show those newly renovated Batista haciendas and the new buildings were Cubans are allowed (edit) to live in them .

Sean I been there, nobody told me, those hotels are not built in Bartsta haciendas, most ofthem were created from nothing in the extense shore Cuba has.

Where did you read in my posts that those Batista private hotels/mansion were for tourist hotels? An increasing percentage of them are being renovated in recent years, precisely from the tourism's revenues in order to attract more tourim. Snowball effect

The city is a mess, nobody told me, I seen it personally.

Out of curiosity, what were the years of your two visits? (I don't think you mentioned them in your posts, but if you did, sorry for missing it)

Now is an open whorehouse

But at least the whores are free to do it if they choose to do it and bring home the money. In Batista times, they were beaten up, enforced into doing it and taken 85% of the money away from them into Battista clique's pockets .

I don't deny the USA embargo has made the situation worst, but Turism alone is enough resource to survive, Cuba is a paradise, there's is sugar, there is Tobacco, Coffee >> sugar coffee and a cigazr only gets you through breakfast , after that comes the rest of the day... As I said, no outside firm will invest in Cuba's economy for fear of the US' reprisals.... , etc that could reach the rest of the world if Fidel leaves. It could reach the world if the US lets it also. Let the Cubans sort out their problems >>> 95% of Cuba's problems comes from the US' fixation of this small island. Had this embargo never existed, the Cubans might have lived a very different fate and maybe Castro would've been dealt with/removed a long time ago

If you ever went to Varadero you will notice almost no kids, people is between lets say 20 and 50, this is not a family destiny. I admit I don't even know where Varadero is (but apparently you know it very well, a coincidence?), but it sounds like some kind of sin district for criminal activities (a bit like Macao was) , but from your description, I don't recognize Cube's general description by my family or the documentaries regularly shown.

I never been with a hooker in my whole life, this is offensive, >> Ok I forgot to put a clown smily next to my comments , please accept my apology for a slightly below-the belt comment, just like I did above. yes I got involved with a tourist in the hotel on my first trip (In the second one I went with a girlfriend) and honestly being single I can do whatever I want with my life, but this doesn't mean I would get near a hooker >>> personally I wouldn't emit a judgment of value to those that go to hookers (or the hookers themselves), but it is a flourishing business and as they say the world's oldest profession, so someone must indulge.

The hotels in Varadeo (BEACH FOR YOUNG PEOPLE MOSTLY) know that their target public are not the families, the system is all included, they earn nothing with families, but surely are a destiny for thousands of young people trying to have fun. It's like the hotels during Spring Break in Florida, their business is not in the families, only that in Varadero lasts all year.

The hotels in the city, those that charge you for everything you eat or drink, admit kids because they have a family business. Now these exists too. We're getting somewhere...

So Varadero is like a Fort Lauderdale for students and young adults were local prostitutes abound!!! Where do the client consume if not in the hotels?.... On the beach or in the back alleys or in rotten 50's Cadilla's back seats?

Getting a bit confused with the editing here.

Compare Cuba to what's comparable >> neighbouring countries is fair, comparing it to California is not!!! What bugs the Anti Castrist is that not only Cuba is still alive, but it is faring better than Haiti, Jamaica, Dominica. This is also similar for Nicaragua fariung as well as US friendly Hoinduras and Salvador or Panama (who should be doing well since they recuperated the canal, but they are not doing better>> I on't read a single line from you even when I bring the subject)

Despite all the problems, their situation is not as terrible as the Cuban and more important they are not used as an example of a system supposedly fair and with respect for human rights. >> I don't think Cuba has that pretention to claim they are, either (outside of propaganda issues)

That's something I will give to Cuba, security for the tourist, you are sure you're not going to be robbed because the laws to protect their basic resource of dollars are absolutely Draconian. I don't believe the laws are any lesser in Dominica or Jamaica, but the Cuban police is probably less corrupted.

Yes, it looks like the good old past, but please, don't accuse me of fomenting prostitution >> Read above

You get the red for communists No, I leave you that one

>> So I chose the Army green instead, just to bother Fidel

Iván

Hugues

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 09:09

IVNORD wrote:

Not offended, but I just wanted to set the record straight , because of previous misunderstanding in that religion thread. I am generally for a neutral stance for society as to avoid all kinds of extremists and you avoid extremism by feeding those who are hungry. Nobody's done a revolution on a full stomach.

Well the international specialist press had already announced Florida would be the key state that would decide which became president, based on calculations from polls. And indeed , Bush should have lost the state and the the president, that recount reversing the verdict. The whole planet was laughing at seeing those holding the cards up to see if the hole was aligned, but also knew something was terribly fishy. The first time a candidates stole the democtratic process of the US.

But who cares, nowadays it's water under the bridge

Not being a coffee drinker (but a major tea drinker, though), I could get off easily from thisubject, but I won't. I always have a coffe pack in my house in case I have visitors (and once they leave, I give the coffee pack that remains to my girlfriend who drinks it no problems) and its brandname is Max Havelaar. This is superficial too. >> of course!! As I said, this only makes bourgeois at peace with themselves Substitute tea or any other commodity, even Germanium for coffee . >> I don't consume Germanium in my coffee or tea, it makes it hard to digest

, BTW, for the purpose of this discussion, the coffee farmer equates to the Amerindian or any other exploited third world worker. >> I sort of understood it that way even if technically most Amerindians are poorer and worst off than farmers.

They will be integrated into the global economy when the time is right, namely, when Global Economy has a need for them. I'm afraid that if you include them when the time is right for those deciding the globalization, it will be much too late

I still believe Chavez is honest about this, being of Amerindian stock himself. Hope he funnels his money to some European destination. It would be funny if he had a few bank accounts in the US. Haven't heard the opposition reporting that Chavez had Swiss or Bahamas bank account, even when they have the CIA on their side.

Alright my friend, it was a shortcut. I assumed you would get it in this synopsis form, but you imbedded some superficial details omitting important ones. I will do a separate write-up on it. superficia detailsl!!!

, mass consumption implies money to spend by the masses, this is one of the pillars of capitalism and consumerism.

Sean, try to disconnect from your idealism for a moment and attempt to look at it from a different prospective <<< I suppose, a Freudian slip my capitalist friend, you certainly meant "perspective" . It may be another shortcut of mine, but it’s too primitive an interpretation of yours. Das Kapital is pretty happy with the current state of affairs, namely it sells all its stuff in, say, Belgium. Even with the present overproduction, the industrial world markets aren’t saturated enough to economically justify expansion into Guatemala, Salvador, etc. Some 50 years ago, Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan were in their place; some 30 years ago – Thailand, Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil. So there’s no stuff for the coffee farmer to buy in his country yet . It will be, but it’ a gradual process. But one day with your theory there won't be any country left where for the global expansion to expand in. Can you ask a Guatemalean to wait another 30 years for their turn to benefit from that "system". There is plenty to buy in Guatemala stores, just not enough people buying , because these countries are being robbed blind of their resources

And artificially high prices for coffee won't help now. >> I'm not saying you have to maintain high prices, but even with coffee prices at rock bottom (as they are purposely kept by brokers and other ivestors), the grower/harvester gets less than 10% (more like 5%) of the price you pay in your supermarket. The rest goes to the brand and the speculators. If you got the speculator (roughly 50% of the price) out of the circuit and threw three quarters of his share to the farmer (the rest to the brand) , he would have the money to invest in his country's economy.

On a minor note, I used to work in the WTC back in 1999 on one of the floors just above the one hit by the plane. The company lost 7 people, four of whom I knew personally. It took me a couple of months to get back to normal after 9/11. So your refraining from referring with-ease to the WTC would be appreciated. Ouch!! OK, sorry!! Didn't know!! But I wasn't necessarily refferring to 9/11 either, there is a WTC in Brussels and Frankfurt as well. WTCs are generally the most common tools to exploit 85% of riches for 5% of the population's benefits, so generally they don't have good press with me.

Actually if it was up to right wing politics alone, the help towards third world countries would quickly be dcreased by 90% ot its actual level, unless there was a return in it for them Most of this help goes to upkeep of the arny and the police to keep the recepient country pacified. Unfortunately so!!

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

debrewguy

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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596

Posted: June 06 2007 at 10:15

I wish people had a political system similar to Canada. The Prime Minister cannot hide behind a press secretary, and must show up in Parliament to answer opposion queries. Unlike the U.S. or France where the President is largely accessible at his whim, i.e. press conferences where he picks the reporter, photo ops, speeches to congress or L'Assemblee Nationale. The value of an opposition is also that they can bring up, keep the heat on & recall government misteps, errors, or questionable policies at will. IT is not perfect, but at least the citizen gets to hear more than one side.
Unlike America, we've had a extended & civil discourse about how to handle to war on terror & its' attendant choices vis a vis personal rights vs national security. Unlike France, we are willing to face & question long established political practices. It's not always pretty, but at least the government can't always hide.
And that the unfortunate situation in Venezuela. Chavez can play the America card, knowing that there is widespread belief in the "evil" gringo stereotype. Even to the point that any opposition needs to offer its own version, if only to ensure that they are not seen as American puppets.

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

IVNORD

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 11:45

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Of course, it wasn’t offered graciously, but the leftists credit themselves with “tearing it away” way too excessively, as you just did. They accelerated the events, but most certainly did not solely achieve it as they love to say. Their greatest contribution was the series of revolutions in Europe after the WW I (though not in the sense you think of it). It demonstrated that opportunists could displace the upper class and expropriate their capital. But while the big money still had a muscle to suppress a few revolutions in the same manner as some 70 years before, it deemed it economically unwise to do so. Because by the end on the 19 century the advances in technology allowed increased production thus creating the base for mass markets. Particularly food became more plentiful, and unlike the events of the mid-19 century when starving the poor or killing them on the barricades produced the same end result, the 20 century offered some hope as there was more to share. Mass markets did not appear overnight, but all the benefits of socialism like minimum wages and paid vacations did not advance the cause a tiny notch. It’s a myth. To the contrary, they feed inflation if you think of it. When the labor markets were tight in the 90’s, they were paying double the minimum wage to bus boys at McDonalds. And when Ford began paying his workers $5 per day at the turn of the century when an average worker’s salary was $120-150 per YEAR, they did not think about limited working time and paid vacations and were able to buy his Model-T instead. But the bottom line is that it happened when there was a material base for it, not at the time of the French revolution nor the Paris Commune. So we’re back to square one – all demonstrations, fighting and other commotions are futile.

IVNORD

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 12:06

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

It's about fair trade (the way Oxfam works too) and giving the most possible to the grower, while limiting the profits from the international brokers and speculators. will address it separately

Sean, you have little understanding how the commodities futures markets work. Some speculators make 50-100-200% on their investment, but it has very little impact on both the farmer and consumer. It's like separate money. For example, back in 96 when coffee prices shot up to $3 (from 50 cents), the manufacturers raised the prices by 15-20 cents on average. The manufacturers use the futures to hedge. Never mind. What you';re referring to is the tremendous overhead created by the functions of the economy and it's unavoidable. I don;t know the figures for coffee per se, but a corn farmer in the US gets about 2-3% of the money a box of cornflakes fetches at the supermarket (between 6-7 cents per pound, sold at $3 per box). It makes me sick to think of all that waste like catchy packaging and commecial advertising I am paying for, but that's the way it is. The producer profits are normally below 10%. Then come supermarkets, wholesalers, distributors, you name it, but their total take as pure profits is less than 20%. It just represents enormous amounts of money thanks to the mass markets.

IVNORD

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 12:07

Chus wrote:

Even as there is theorically an embargo, I don't see it much objectively. How do people get a handful of those cuban cigars, for example?

Chus, how are things?

IVNORD

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 12:17

Sean Trane wrote:

[

In case you've never heard of it Sean, during the Cuban crisis in 1962 Fidel called on Khrustchev to nuke the US. Imagine if they did so. Now Fidel would be living in the world without the US. And so he does.

But you're still defending him. It's like someone wants to kill you, and you not only don't press charges, but buy a couple of Cuban cigars from him because they've confiscated his gun and he needs another one. And if you want more cigars he could rob the tabacconist. To buy ammunition for his gun. Isn't it sweet?

IVNORD

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 12:31

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Unfortunately we provide free entertainment to the world from time to time. Clinton's impeacment being another great circus.

But who cares, nowadays it's water under the bridge

Sean, try to disconnect from your idealism for a moment and attempt to look at it from a different prospective <<< I suppose, a Freudian slip my capitalist friend, you certainly meant "perspective" . Good catch. It was too late at night. It may be another shortcut of mine, but it’s too primitive an interpretation of yours. Das Kapital is pretty happy with the current state of affairs, namely it sells all its stuff in, say, Belgium. Even with the present overproduction, the industrial world markets aren’t saturated enough to economically justify expansion into Guatemala, Salvador, etc. Some 50 years ago, Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan were in their place; some 30 years ago – Thailand, Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil. So there’s no stuff for the coffee farmer to buy in his country yet . It will be, but it’ a gradual process. But one day with your theory there won't be any country left where for the global expansion to expand in. True. And I have no idea how it will evolve then. I can fantasize but it's hard to imagine something that does not exist yet. Can you ask a Guatemalean to wait another 30 years for their turn to benefit from that "system". I'm not going to ask him as I'm not in charge of the process. If it depended on me, universal harmony would be in place long ago. There is plenty to buy in Guatemala stores, just not enough people buying , because these countries are being robbed blind of their resources

debrewguy

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 13:11

I thought we were discussing Venezuela. Why all the talk about cigars ? Unless there's a freudian thing going on here ? Wink

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

IVNORD

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Posted: June 06 2007 at 13:13

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

BTW, ever thought why they pay 5 cents to the coffee farmer for a pound of beans and $50 per hour to the engineer designing the equipment to process those beans?

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: June 07 2007 at 00:09

Sean asked:

Incredibly in their houses with the knowledge of the family, they have to survive and this is unfair

I talked with an agent who told me how hard it was for this people since prostitution was turned into a crime with prison.

BTW: Varadero is not a whorehouse, it's only a Beach complex of hotels for people between 20 and 50. The biggest hotels are there now.

Iván

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Posted: June 07 2007 at 00:14

IVNORD wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

BTW, ever thought why they pay 5 cents to the coffee farmer for a pound of beans and $50 per hour to the engineer designing the equipment to process those beans?

I for one buy my coffe at fair market and roast it myself via popcorn popper, its cheaper, better for the farmers, and last but not least it tastes better!

I buy the beans at:http: //www.sweetmarias.com/

who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob

stonebeard View Drop Down

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