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Poll Question: Liberal or Conservative?
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14 [22.58%]
7 [11.29%]
3 [4.84%]
8 [12.90%]
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:23
I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:29
^^^I'm pretty conservative in my beliefs and I have libertarian tendencies also.
 
Edit: What is your opinion of Ron Paul?


Edited by Novalis - June 01 2007 at 22:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:49
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:30
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 
 
it's actually both the same isn't it?
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:33
Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 
 
it's actually both the same isn't it?
Well if you think about it, far left Marxism is about as far from libertarianism as you can get.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:46
I am a progressive conservative libertarian populist.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 06:44
Originally posted by Novalis Novalis wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 
 
it's actually both the same isn't it?
Well if you think about it, far left Marxism is about as far from libertarianism as you can get.
 
Agreed Novalis! There is no way there is a redundance between these extremes.
 
No way far left politics tend to force out individualism in order to reinforce the community's equality.
 
Libartarians are openly individualist and close to anarchism by their hate of structures.
 
At least that's my comprehension.
 
 
 
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 13:37
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Novalis Novalis wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 
 
it's actually both the same isn't it?
Well if you think about it, far left Marxism is about as far from libertarianism as you can get.
 
Agreed Novalis! There is no way there is a redundance between these extremes.
 
No way far left politics tend to force out individualism in order to reinforce the community's equality.
 
Libartarians are openly individualist and close to anarchism by their hate of structures.
 
At least that's my comprehension.
 
 
 
 

 I would say that right wing politics tend to force out individualism in order to enforce the community's homogeneity.
Left & right wing (sounds like a hockey forward line missing the centre) both share this thinking,  "Don't rock the boat, if you know what's good for you".
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 13:57
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Originally posted by tardis tardis wrote:

Politics stinks worse than my own sh*t. And that's saying something.

Nah, you just gotta understand how the game is played. Then you need to analyze the audience (i.e. voters) reaction & thought process. Politicians hate to have to make hard & nasty choices & the citizens oblige them by rewarding  with power those who come up with the easy answer, whether it's realistic or not. " I will lower your taxes & give you more of XXXX" Wink


I still think politics is a farce and a waste of time. Yeah, sure, maybe you can get some change, but only based on the issues presented. If there are REAL issues at hand, you have to petition your ass off to get them to take notice, and ONLY if others are willing to support your idea(s). Of course, you can go it alone, but who wants to be a crusader every time something needs doing. Show me a politician who can create effective and truly positive change, and I'll show some interest!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2007 at 01:24
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Novalis Novalis wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 
 
it's actually both the same isn't it?
Well if you think about it, far left Marxism is about as far from libertarianism as you can get.
 
Agreed Novalis! There is no way there is a redundance between these extremes.
 
No way far left politics tend to force out individualism in order to reinforce the community's equality.
 
Libartarians are openly individualist and close to anarchism by their hate of structures.
 
At least that's my comprehension.
 
 
 
 

 I would say that right wing politics tend to force out individualism in order to enforce the community's homogeneity.
Left & right wing (sounds like a hockey forward line missing the centre) both share this thinking,  "Don't rock the boat, if you know what's good for you".
 
I completely agree with your first statement (I may be generalizing about social conservatives - in America - but I find it ironic that you included a word with "homo-" in it when talking about right-wing politics LOL).
In regards to your second statement I'm not so sure. Some things that stand out in my mind are "Liberal" organizations like the A.C.L.U. (=Clown), which seem to "rock the boat" quite a bit (with so many people being "offended" and whatnot). I'm sure there are other examples (like of conservative groups that "rock the boat")... just can't think of any at the moment.
 
And on a different note:
 
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!
 
No hating! Personally I really liked Ayn Rand's views (but I am only familiar with some of  her opinions on existence and knowledge... not so much politically).


Edited by ClassicRocker - June 03 2007 at 01:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2007 at 06:24
Originally posted by ClassicRocker ClassicRocker wrote:

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Novalis Novalis wrote:

Originally posted by tuxon tuxon wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 
 
it's actually both the same isn't it?
Well if you think about it, far left Marxism is about as far from libertarianism as you can get.
 
Agreed Novalis! There is no way there is a redundance between these extremes.
 
No way far left politics tend to force out individualism in order to reinforce the community's equality.
 
Libartarians are openly individualist and close to anarchism by their hate of structures.
 
At least that's my comprehension.
 
 
 
 

 I would say that right wing politics tend to force out individualism in order to enforce the community's homogeneity.
Left & right wing (sounds like a hockey forward line missing the centre) both share this thinking,  "Don't rock the boat, if you know what's good for you".
 
I completely agree with your first statement (I may be generalizing about social conservatives - in America - but I find it ironic that you included a word with "homo-" in it when talking about right-wing politics LOL).
In regards to your second statement I'm not so sure. Some things that stand out in my mind are "Liberal" organizations like the A.C.L.U. (=Clown), which seem to "rock the boat" quite a bit (with so many people being "offended" and whatnot). I'm sure there are other examples (like of conservative groups that "rock the boat")... just can't think of any at the moment.
 
 
 
Actually I wouldn't go too far as saying that the entire right wing politics is repressing individualism. This might be so a bit in the conservateur scope of right wing politics and a lot in the extreme right realm, but certainly not in the liberal rightwing, where you are encouraged to be different and succeed as much as possible.
 
 
 
I meant that individualism being repressed by the left wing is more like the economic freedom. They will tend to scrape up your exceeding cash flow to give it to the needy (and the leaches profitting from the system).
 
 
Liberal or Entrepreneurial right wing politics is all for people wanting to show that they are better than their neighbours by building a bigger pool and owning a Rolls instead of a Jag.
 
Conservateur will disapprove of one of their comlmunity acting like that , but as long as the money is given to the church to shut the pastor/minister up, he will dismiss this weakness as humanly and avoid drying up the source of providenceClown >>> now there is a shot below the beltLOL!!!!


Edited by Sean Trane - June 03 2007 at 06:26
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2007 at 18:22
These terms kinda annoy me. You can claim to be ANYTHING and have a serious philosiphy backing you up. Once as a joke I said I was a libertarian communist, and someone on this forum really was!
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2007 at 23:32
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

These terms kinda annoy me. You can claim to be ANYTHING and have a serious philosiphy backing you up. Once as a joke I said I was a libertarian communist, and someone on this forum really was!
 
 
 
Very true, there are some extremely ridiculous combos of political "philosophies". Maybe too many non-comformists? Don't want to categorize themselves?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:43
Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 


Allow me to clarify. I believe in capitalism, the free market, economic liberty. I believe in small government, bordering on no government. I believe in lowering taxes. All of these are traditionally conservative positions, at least in the USA.
I also believe in social liberty, such as the right to smoke (democrats are the ones who take this away) the right to bear arms (conservative). I also believe in gay rights and legalizing drugs, which one place where I differ from conservatives, but those are not my highest priority issues.
In my opinions, liberals want to restrict our freedoms in order to increase social equality. Conservatives also want to limit our freedoms, but it's not so blatant or severe. At leaast that's my view.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 13:57
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I'm a conservative libertarian to whom the writings of Ayn Rand make a lot of sense. Please don't hate me because I'm different than you!


Conservative libertarian?  Those seem like incompatable terms.  Could you explain your position? 


Allow me to clarify. I believe in capitalism, the free market, economic liberty. I believe in small government, bordering on no government. I believe in lowering taxes. All of these are traditionally conservative positions, at least in the USA.
I also believe in social liberty, such as the right to smoke (democrats are the ones who take this away) the right to bear arms (conservative). I also believe in gay rights and legalizing drugs, which one place where I differ from conservatives, but those are not my highest priority issues.
In my opinions, liberals want to restrict our freedoms in order to increase social equality. Conservatives also want to limit our freedoms, but it's not so blatant or severe. At leaast that's my view.
 
So how exactly do conservatives want to restrict our freedoms on a "lower level" than liberals? examples?
 
(not arguing.. just discussing)


Edited by ClassicRocker - June 04 2007 at 13:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 15:47
I guess it depends on which freedoms you value the most. For example, I think that marikuana should be legal, but I don't like marijuana or people that use it, so if conservatives want to ban it, it doesn't upset me as much as income redistribution as supported by the democrats.
I don't support government subsidies of anything. Conservatives want to subsidize big business, liberals want to subsidize everything else.
And one of the most frightening things to me about the democratic party is their value of political correctness over freedom. When an employer is forced, forced mind you, to keep giving money to someone to do a job that they don't want them to do, simply because of their race, religion, or sexual orientation, I think we have a  big problem. (In case it's not clear I'm referring to anti-discrimination laws such as affirmative action.)
On the whole I can think of many more examples of liberal restrictions on freedom than of conservative ones. But as I said, that's just my opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 17:51
^^^ Valid points, but in the end this is all subjective (like our musical tastes.. no-one's right, yet everyone is). Honestly, I consider myself more liberal than conservative (but that doesn't mean I believe what they all do; I have my own beliefs and more of them just happen to fall into that category).
 
In that vein of thought I HATE the "PC police". I'm sick and tired of everyone bending over backwards so that they don't "offend" anyone. Sure, we have the basics I believe are neccessary to follow: like don't be racist or don't make insults out of sexual orientation, but the problem lies beyond that. People are getting afraid to speak their minds as to not offend, yet virtually anything one says, does, or makes has the potential of "offending" someone in this world.
 
In all seriousness, political satires like Borat help to fight this by saying what they want and being "offensive" in order to get their points across and expose real problems like ignorance in America (and parts of the rest of the world as well).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 18:11
Originally posted by ClassicRocker ClassicRocker wrote:

^^^ Valid points, but in the end this is all subjective (like our musical tastes.. no-one's right, yet everyone is). Honestly, I consider myself more liberal than conservative (but that doesn't mean I believe what they all do; I have my own beliefs and more of them just happen to fall into that category).
 
In that vein of thought I HATE the "PC police". I'm sick and tired of everyone bending over backwards so that they don't "offend" anyone. Sure, we have the basics I believe are neccessary to follow: like don't be racist or don't make insults out of sexual orientation, but the problem lies beyond that. People are getting afraid to speak their minds as to not offend, yet virtually anything one says, does, or makes has the potential of "offending" someone in this world.
 
In all seriousness, political satires like Borat help to fight this by saying what they want and being "offensive" in order to get their points across and expose real problems like ignorance in America (and parts of the rest of the world as well).
 
Political correctness is a phantom invented by a largely conservative media establishment to justify the perpetuation of old bigotries. The PC police don't exist, but maybe people are just a little more sensitive about racism, sexism and homophobia these days. Call me a humourless, freedom hating old git if you like, but I don't see this as a bad thing. In the UK press virtually every story about Political Correctness Gone Mad has proved to be completely fictitious, from London primary schools banning Baa Baa Black Sheep (they didn't) to Winterval replacing Christmas so as not to offend Muslims (It was a business initiative in the mid 90s, nothing to do with PC) to schoolchildren singing Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep so as to be PC (they were learning different colours, including black). Sacha Baron Cohen, the man behind Ali G and Borat, did not intend his creations to be anti PC, but rather to expose the inherent bigotries and hypocrisies that are all too prevalent in contemporary Western societies. Read this quote from the man himself:

Regarding his portrayal as the anti-Semitic Borat, Baron Cohen says the segments are a "dramatic demonstration of how racism feeds on dumb conformity, as much as rabid bigotry," rather than a display of racism by Baron Cohen himself.[23] "Borat essentially works as a tool. By himself being anti-Semitic, he lets people lower their guard and expose their own prejudice," Baron Cohen explains. [4] Addressing the same topic in an NPR interview with Robert Siegel, Cohen says "...and I think that's quite an interesting thing with Borat, which is people really let down their guard with him because they're in a room with somebody who seems to have these outrageous opinions. They sometimes feel much more relaxed about letting their own outrageous, politically incorrect, prejudiced opinions come out."[24] Cohen, the grandson of a Holocaust survivor, says he also wishes in particular to expose the role of indifference in that genocide. "When I was in university, there was this major historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, who said, 'The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference.' I know it's not very funny being a comedian talking about the Holocaust, but it's an interesting idea that not everyone in Germany had to be a raving anti-Semite. They just had to be apathetic."[4] Regarding the enthusiastic response to his song "In My Country There is Problem", he says, "Did it reveal that they were anti-Semitic? Perhaps. But maybe it just revealed that they were indifferent to anti-Semitism."[4]
(Wikipedia, my italics)
 
If you think that Borat is a blow against  PC you have missed the point, and indeed the joke.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2007 at 20:26
You humorless, freedom hating old git!

But seriously, I'm all for being nice and not trying to offend people, but when the government makes laws that put people in prison for not agreeing with what is deemed politically correct it really makes me worry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2007 at 01:59
Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Originally posted by ClassicRocker ClassicRocker wrote:

^^^ Valid points, but in the end this is all subjective (like our musical tastes.. no-one's right, yet everyone is). Honestly, I consider myself more liberal than conservative (but that doesn't mean I believe what they all do; I have my own beliefs and more of them just happen to fall into that category).
 
In that vein of thought I HATE the "PC police". I'm sick and tired of everyone bending over backwards so that they don't "offend" anyone. Sure, we have the basics I believe are neccessary to follow: like don't be racist or don't make insults out of sexual orientation, but the problem lies beyond that. People are getting afraid to speak their minds as to not offend, yet virtually anything one says, does, or makes has the potential of "offending" someone in this world.
 
In all seriousness, political satires like Borat help to fight this by saying what they want and being "offensive" in order to get their points across and expose real problems like ignorance in America (and parts of the rest of the world as well).
 
Political correctness is a phantom invented by a largely conservative media establishment to justify the perpetuation of old bigotries. The PC police don't exist, but maybe people are just a little more sensitive about racism, sexism and homophobia these days. Call me a humourless, freedom hating old git if you like, but I don't see this as a bad thing. In the UK press virtually every story about Political Correctness Gone Mad has proved to be completely fictitious, from London primary schools banning Baa Baa Black Sheep (they didn't) to Winterval replacing Christmas so as not to offend Muslims (It was a business initiative in the mid 90s, nothing to do with PC) to schoolchildren singing Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep so as to be PC (they were learning different colours, including black). Sacha Baron Cohen, the man behind Ali G and Borat, did not intend his creations to be anti PC, but rather to expose the inherent bigotries and hypocrisies that are all too prevalent in contemporary Western societies. Read this quote from the man himself:

Regarding his portrayal as the anti-Semitic Borat, Baron Cohen says the segments are a "dramatic demonstration of how racism feeds on dumb conformity, as much as rabid bigotry," rather than a display of racism by Baron Cohen himself.[23] "Borat essentially works as a tool. By himself being anti-Semitic, he lets people lower their guard and expose their own prejudice," Baron Cohen explains. [4] Addressing the same topic in an NPR interview with Robert Siegel, Cohen says "...and I think that's quite an interesting thing with Borat, which is people really let down their guard with him because they're in a room with somebody who seems to have these outrageous opinions. They sometimes feel much more relaxed about letting their own outrageous, politically incorrect, prejudiced opinions come out."[24] Cohen, the grandson of a Holocaust survivor, says he also wishes in particular to expose the role of indifference in that genocide. "When I was in university, there was this major historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, who said, 'The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference.' I know it's not very funny being a comedian talking about the Holocaust, but it's an interesting idea that not everyone in Germany had to be a raving anti-Semite. They just had to be apathetic."[4] Regarding the enthusiastic response to his song "In My Country There is Problem", he says, "Did it reveal that they were anti-Semitic? Perhaps. But maybe it just revealed that they were indifferent to anti-Semitism."[4]
(Wikipedia, my italics)
 
If you think that Borat is a blow against  PC you have missed the point, and indeed the joke.

Because we all know mocking a race is the best way to combat racism.Wink
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