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IVNORD View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

 
Who knows how many negociations does he hold secretly with Bush, They probably contact each other from time to time, but it may be out of administrative necessity. I don’t think either one derives any pleasure from those contacts.
as well as Fidel supposedly does behind the scenes (ask the hotel owners in Cuba, and how tourists pay in $, at least from what I heard). Fidel’s status transformed from being a thorn in the butt during the Kennedy administration into a tick on a rhinoceros’ hide – it’s there but it’s irrelevant. I don’t think US presidents talk to Fidel.
 
We (the students) are protesting pacifically and Chavez's minions are causing chaos as to say that we are the violent ones, so he can have an excuse to bring his militar partisans to repress civilians and to establish officially his dictatorship. Peaceful protests per se never achieved anything except for a few bruises, black eyes or bleeding heads. It’s a prerogative of youth. Things are sorted out in a different way. Ideological perversions and slogans fall apart when confronted by economic reality. It may be unpleasant to live without freedom of speech but peaceful protests will not help it in any way.

 
Lech Walesa, Ghandi, Martin Luther King.... just some examples of pacific revolutions. In all your examples economy played the primary role. In Poland in 1970, the Gomulka government crushed peaceful protests of workers of the same shipyards, where Walesa recruited the majority of his Solidarity members in the 80’s. In 81 Jaruzelski banned it altogether. So while the resources to suppress the dissent were available no peaceful transformation took place, and only after the entire communist system went bankrupt things changed. The British gave up India only when maintaining the empire became prohibitively expensive. For the same reason, they left most of their colonies in Africa (without any interference from Ghandi). Desegregation in America was dictated by economic reasons as a large segment of the population had had no full access to benefits of the consumer society because of the stupid racial policies of the south. Blacks had no buying power; they were underpaid and unproductive, as they were kept uneducated. The expanding economy needed new consumers and efficient workers. Civil disobedience certainly helped accelerating those “peaceful revolutions” but crediting it with achieving the end-result is like saying that the cart pushes the horse. Things will fall into place in Venezuela too no matter how much you protest. Chavez can afford to buy his allies now; but when inflation dissipates his $60 bbl profits, he will have to go too.
 
 
 
Of course this doesn't mean we don't have a right to legitimate defense, but we try our best not to arise in violence Please don’t arise in violence, that’s not what I meant(see above). Just be careful with your peaceful protests. We all would love to see you here in one piece
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 20:06
You speak much sense, but we are peaceful just because we want the International Community to help us, I also don't think that we could obtain those benefits only with our resistance, but I can't find another way to fight when we're not armed in any way with fire weapons (at least I'm not) and the Chavecists are armed with war weapons. It's a shame to depend on an international community that's not really that reliable
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 20:14
Now Chavez set his guns against the Brazilian Congress and Lula demanded clearings from the Venezolan ambassador. What a mess! Brazil and Venezuela are great friends since Bolivar's time and one Brazilian patriot, Abreu Lima, was a general within the liberator forces in the Spanish America.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 21:23
Yes I've heard of that; Chavez said that the congressmen in Brazil were "repeating like parrots what the 'empire' said", Lula had to follow what the congress and the press said, because he would have a very bad image. If the Mercosur vetoes Venezuela it will be hard for Chavez to ignore, specially if those countries decide not to buy oil from Venezuela. Surprisingly, Nicaraguan parliament  has also shown it's disdain with this move, and we all know Ortega's relationship with Chavez is not exactly bad.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:34
Markosherrera (my good fellow compatriot) told me about what happened where he lives in Maracay, Aragua State (I assumed it happened today). Chavez's hordes are on it again, attacking a pacific march of young and old age with bottles, rocks and even fire weapons, another young lady was killed by guns, and people were running for their lifes, trying to find shelters; the police took advantage and started throwing tear gas bombs only to the protestants, as Chavez's forces were sacking and robbing shops and damaging properties; for what I understood, the tear gas bombs were also thrown in clinics, which is more than an aberration, it's macabre!!!.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:42
Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

You speak much sense, but we are peaceful just because we want the International Community to help us, I also don't think that we could obtain those benefits only with our resistance, but I can't find another way to fight when we're not armed in any way with fire weapons (at least I'm not) and the Chavecists are armed with war weapons. It's a shame to depend on an international community that's not really that reliable
 

What I really meant to say is why fight at all? Those examples speak volumes. When the moment is right it all will be worked out.  The collapse of the Soviet block is the best proof of that. After all those years of civil strife it simply disintegrated, and Walesa and Vazlav Havel suddenly found themselves presidents of their respective countries to their total amazement. As opposed to being dissidents under house arrest or doing jail time.  

 

Protests and dissent don’t produce the desired results. So your fighting is just an exercise in futility, it’s not worth wasting your time. I don’t have any personal experience since I came of age in the 70’s, but if you ask the rebellious 60’s generation you could probably find no one having sweet memories about street fighting. You could hear, “it was nice listening to music,” or  “it was nice smoking pot,” or “it was nice making love,” but you could hardly find anybody saying, “it was nice to get beaten up at a demonstration.” And when your opponents are armed with war weapons, it makes this struggle not only futile but also mortally dangerous. No civil freedom is worth dying for (you could definitely find no one saying, “it was nice dying for freedom”).  So stay away from it Chus. And don’t count on the international community. All they can do to bring Chavez down is stop buying his oil but nobody will do that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:56
I think it's better than having a lifetime of hunger and undernourishment, like it's documented that happens in Cuba and those communist countries; this is not just about freedom of speech, they could also control what we eat, what we listen, what we see.... I can't live thinking about that sort of life in which also prog could be banned.. imagine that!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:11
ALL  that  write Chus is true,today and yesterday was and are horrible I ought to eat and sleep etc in the house of my fathers with my daughter because the smoke and noise of bombs its excessive and the possibility of (balas)gunfire  make too dangerous the space near my apartment
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:17

better (easier) to be pawns than to be master isn't it.



Edited by tuxon - June 01 2007 at 23:23
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:40
Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

I think it's better than having a lifetime of hunger and undernourishment, like it's documented that happens in Cuba and those communist countries; this is not just about freedom of speech, they could also control what we eat, what we listen, what we see.... I can't live thinking about that sort of life in which also prog could be banned.. imagine that!!!
 

I don’t believe Venezuela is at that stage yet. And even in the communist countries rulers know that the population should be supplied all basic staples since the deficit of those will ultimately bring their demise. And with the oil dollars… With regard to prog, etc., there are always ways to get around official bans. Look at Iran. Only Taliban with their brutality succeeded in suppression of all human freedoms. But to compare with them, Chaves is benevolence itself.  And considering his age group, he must be, at the very least, a Beatles’ fan.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 23:50
Originally posted by markosherrera markosherrera wrote:

ALL  that  write Chus is true,today and yesterday was and are horrible I ought to eat and sleep etc in the house of my fathers with my daughter because the smoke and noise of bombs its excessive and the possibility of (balas)gunfire  make too dangerous the space near my apartment
 
Chus, markosherrera,
 
Guys, I'm really sorry to hear that. Hope you and yours are alright.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 00:11
Now some chaveans of goverment want to change the spanish names of cities like Valencia,Merida,Barcelona,Trujillo,San Cristobal,to indians or indigenas names,and make obligatory learn wayu indian language etc,in Venezuela the indians are less of 50000 in a poblation of 26000000 .  the Chaveans are against catholics(95%) and want impulse indians and afro religions(the religion of 5% of people),and said that womans dont ought to use towells for menstruation,that is better be poor than rich,that is bad have a car..that is a stupidity study marketing or publicity because it will be not necessary in the future,that the people that dont think like theirs is  because are mentally ills,or are delinquents,or dont love the nation,they said   comments against people descendents of europeans etc and against jews etc now say that all the poors ought to attack the median and high income people ,if the protest make problems to the revolution etc

Edited by markosherrera - June 02 2007 at 00:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 07:17
Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

 True, though doubts are that the election process was a clean one, remember that one of the biggest campaign marches in history was Rosales' one, and it was obvious that he was the favourite, just by moving that amount of people to the streets. There were irregularities in the process, some voters couldn't even speak spanish, to say one thing, ID's were duplicated, triplicated, quadruplicated, and it was obvious when you entered different ID's in the electoral registry site and the data was all the same, including the residency. It's easy to have a corrupt electoral process when you have all the powers in favour, including a General Prosecutor who was with the government party.
 
 
Indeed these frauds are sad, but are they really coming from Amerindians coming out of the forest and jungles to get to vote for the first time in the country's history. These people have been ignored so long that they don't even speak spanish. How do you expect indios to give out an address from a hut camp where streets have no name and even if they did, they'd not be able to read the signs, let alone cheat with voting procedures.
 
I think that the real picture of Venezuela (as in Guatemala , Ecuador and Bolivia is a native American revolutiob where they finally want to move) and Chavez's votes come from that silent (until now) forgotten (despised and ignored) majority. And the sheer numbers of them (crawling out form the bushes that served as their homes) is simply outnumbering the "white occidental order".
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

[QUOTE=Chus]
I think it's better than having a lifetime of hunger and undernourishment, like it's documented that happens in Cuba and those communist countries; this is not just about freedom of speech, they could also control what we eat, what we listen, what we see.... I can't live thinking about that sort of life in which also prog could be banned.. imagine that!!!
 

I don’t believe Venezuela is at that stage yet. And even in the communist countries rulers know that the population should be supplied all basic staples since the deficit of those will ultimately bring their demise. And with the oil dollars… Iran Talibans .... blablablabla... [/QUOTE]

 
 
Let's leave the Religion Dictatorships (although Iran is also a a democracy, but with result not pleasing us westerners) out of this discussion please.Wink
 
Cuba has one of the healthiest population (it's not able to feed on McDonald grease pits) and one of the longest life expectancy, with a medical care not even close  to the toenail of what's done in Californian hospitals in terms of modern technology. But it is free and available to everyone. (So we all hear anyway)
 
Without the US embargo, the country would probably fare much better too.


Edited by Sean Trane - June 02 2007 at 07:30
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 07:29
Originally posted by markosherrera markosherrera wrote:

Now some chaveans of goverment want to change the spanish names of cities like Valencia,Merida,Barcelona,Trujillo,San Cristobal,to indians or indigenas names,and make obligatory learn wayu indian language etc,in Venezuela the indians are less of 50 000 in a poblation of 26 000 000 .  the Chaveans are against catholics(95%) and want impulse indians and afro religions(the religion of 5% of people),and said that womans dont ought to use towells for menstruation,that is better be poor than rich,that is bad have a car..that is a stupidity study marketing or publicity because it will be not necessary in the future,that the people that dont think like theirs is  because are mentally ills,or are delinquents,or dont love the nation,they said   comments against people descendents of europeans etc and against jews etc now say that all the poors ought to attack the median and high income people ,if the protest make problems to the revolution etc
 
 
I am going to look it up but I really think you've got your facts wrong here in terms of the indigenous populations including metis/mixed blood and their percentage. >>> don't forget they've never be counted before either, and they're crawling out of the bushes that served as their huts.
 
The rest of your post is even more questionable (even close to ridicule, no offence meant, Smile but just read what you've written). If you read such a newspaper that prints that garbage, I can't blame Chavez for closing it down, I'd even support it .
 
 
Plus being atheists does not mean being anti-catholics/christians (I add this christian mention because I think Venezuella is losing catholics by the tens of thousands to alternatives)
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 10:01
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

 True, though doubts are that the election process was a clean one, remember that one of the biggest campaign marches in history was Rosales' one, and it was obvious that he was the favourite, just by moving that amount of people to the streets. There were irregularities in the process, some voters couldn't even speak spanish, to say one thing, ID's were duplicated, triplicated, quadruplicated, and it was obvious when you entered different ID's in the electoral registry site and the data was all the same, including the residency. It's easy to have a corrupt electoral process when you have all the powers in favour, including a General Prosecutor who was with the government party.
 
 
Indeed these frauds are sad, but are they really coming from Amerindians coming out of the forest and jungles to get to vote for the first time in the country's history. These people have been ignored so long that they don't even speak spanish. How do you expect indios to give out an address from a hut camp where streets have no name and even if they did, they'd not be able to read the signs, let alone cheat with voting procedures.
 
I think that the real picture of Venezuela (as in Guatemala , Ecuador and Bolivia is a native American revolutiob where they finally want to move) and Chavez's votes come from that silent (until now) forgotten (despised and ignored) majority. And the sheer numbers of them (crawling out form the bushes that served as their homes) is simply outnumbering the "white occidental order".
 
 
 
No, my friend. Those people were not amerindians, they came from foreign countries, perhaps Trinidad (some were dark-coloured who spoke english), Africa, etc. But amerindians they were not!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 10:11
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by markosherrera markosherrera wrote:

Now some chaveans of goverment want to change the spanish names of cities like Valencia,Merida,Barcelona,Trujillo,San Cristobal,to indians or indigenas names,and make obligatory learn wayu indian language etc,in Venezuela the indians are less of 50 000 in a poblation of 26 000 000 .  the Chaveans are against catholics(95%) and want impulse indians and afro religions(the religion of 5% of people),and said that womans dont ought to use towells for menstruation,that is better be poor than rich,that is bad have a car..that is a stupidity study marketing or publicity because it will be not necessary in the future,that the people that dont think like theirs is  because are mentally ills,or are delinquents,or dont love the nation,they said   comments against people descendents of europeans etc and against jews etc now say that all the poors ought to attack the median and high income people ,if the protest make problems to the revolution etc
 
 
I am going to look it up but I really think you've got your facts wrong here in terms of the indigenous populations including metis/mixed blood and their percentage. >>> don't forget they've never be counted before either, and they're crawling out of the bushes that served as their huts.
 
The rest of your post is even more questionable (even close to ridicule, no offence meant, Smile but just read what you've written). If you read such a newspaper that prints that garbage, I can't blame Chavez for closing it down, I'd even support it .
 
 
Plus being atheists does not mean being anti-catholics/christians (I add this christian mention because I think Venezuella is losing catholics by the tens of thousands to alternatives)
 
She was an officialist reporter, I think, the one who wrote that article, I don't think it was a private channel, really. She suggested all that. It's really understandable considering Chavez has attacked the church more than once, and he shares the ideology of Fidel in that every form of music coming from the 'empire' should be banned. I mean were people like Arturo Sandoval, Paquito D' Rivera, Pucho Escalante or Chucho Valdes allowed to play jazz in Cuba?


Edited by Chus - June 02 2007 at 10:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 10:20
[
 
 
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

I think it's better than having a lifetime of hunger and undernourishment, like it's documented that happens in Cuba and those communist countries; this is not just about freedom of speech, they could also control what we eat, what we listen, what we see.... I can't live thinking about that sort of life in which also prog could be banned.. imagine that!!!
 

I don’t believe Venezuela is at that stage yet. And even in the communist countries rulers know that the population should be supplied all basic staples since the deficit of those will ultimately bring their demise. And with the oil dollars… Iran Talibans .... blablablabla... [/QUOTE]

 
 
Let's leave the Religion Dictatorships (although Iran is also a a democracy, but with result not pleasing us westerners) out of this discussion please.Wink
 
Cuba has one of the healthiest population (it's not able to feed on McDonald grease pits) and one of the longest life expectancy, with a medical care not even close  to the toenail of what's done in Californian hospitals in terms of modern technology. But it is free and available to everyone. (So we all hear anyway)
 
Without the US embargo, the country would probably fare much better too.
 
 
This is what I've heard in some of the versions from Cuban friends and documentals; sure they don't eat in McDonalds but shouldn't they eat a bit more?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 11:37
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 
Let's leave the Religion Dictatorships (although Iran is also a a democracy, but with result not pleasing us westerners) out of this discussion please.Wink
 
Cuba has one of the healthiest population (it's not able to feed on McDonald grease pits) and one of the longest life expectancy, with a medical care not even close  to the toenail of what's done in Californian hospitals in terms of modern technology. But it is free and available to everyone. (So we all hear anyway)
 
Without the US embargo, the country would probably fare much better too.

I’m no expert on religious dictatorships. All I said was, with all the ideological bans in Iran, people still listen to rock and play soccer. But that’s a minor issue.

 

Now I’ve never experienced the Cuban healthcare system (thank God!) but I vividly remember all benefits of the Soviet one which by default must be superior to the Cuban and which was based not on knowledge and professionalism but on doctor’s compassion or lack of such. You were lucky if the doctor took interest in you since they had no other incentive to do a good job to retain you as a client. How about dentists inflicting pain on patients for the fun of it? Extractin a tooth vs. doing a root canal because it’s cheaper? Wiping your blood with your own handkerchief after a tooth extraction? (if you had none, bad luck). Doctors conducting weird experiments on orphaned infants? Sure thing, no accountability. I guess the Soviet Hippocratic Oath provided plenty of leeway for it. My childhood friend’s grandmother was given a wrong injection and died of it in the ambulance car. Anyone’s at fault? Human error, sh*t happens. Lack of hospital beds, medicine and equipment? Want more stories? Of course, all that expensive technology in California is not readily available to everyone, but it’s there and it gets available gradually when its cost decreases. The same way it’s available in Canada (or Belgium) for free, so Canadians cross the border to have a surgery in the US instead of waiting for years at home. Don't take everything leftist propaganda says for granted. 

 

Now what these guys write about Venezuelan affairs sounds somewhat familiar. So your threat to investigate markosherrera claims is rather ridiculous than malicious (and I’m saying it amicably) as you appear to be more of an honest victim of disinformation than a promoter of it. Although some things they say sound bizarre, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn they are real. Don’t you think they know it better living in the country vs you reading it on the internet? Regardless of their political stance.

 

 I am profoundly sorry for what’s happening to them. I personally wouldn’t resort to protest and fighting, but it’s just me. It emanates from my deep apathy and cynicism towards politics and power. But I don’t question their best intentions.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 11:45
Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

[
 
 
Originally posted by IVNORD IVNORD wrote:

Originally posted by Chus Chus wrote:

I think it's better than having a lifetime of hunger and undernourishment, like it's documented that happens in Cuba and those communist countries; this is not just about freedom of speech, they could also control what we eat, what we listen, what we see.... I can't live thinking about that sort of life in which also prog could be banned.. imagine that!!!
 

I don’t believe Venezuela is at that stage yet. And even in the communist countries rulers know that the population should be supplied all basic staples since the deficit of those will ultimately bring their demise. And with the oil dollars… Iran Talibans .... blablablabla... [/QUOTE]

 
 
Let's leave the Religion Dictatorships (although Iran is also a a democracy, but with result not pleasing us westerners) out of this discussion please.Wink
 
Cuba has one of the healthiest population (it's not able to feed on McDonald grease pits) and one of the longest life expectancy, with a medical care not even close  to the toenail of what's done in Californian hospitals in terms of modern technology. But it is free and available to everyone. (So we all hear anyway)
 
Without the US embargo, the country would probably fare much better too.
 
 
This is what I've heard in some of the versions from Cuban friends and documentals; sure they don't eat in McDonalds but shouldn't they eat a bit more?
 
Man, that's a rich diet!!
 
How about people subsisting on bread and potatoes. McDonalds grease pits wuold be a treat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 11:59
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Cuba has one of the healthiest population (it's not able to feed on McDonald grease pits) and one of the longest life expectancy, with a medical care not even close  to the toenail of what's done in Californian hospitals in terms of modern technology. But it is free and available to everyone. (So we all hear anyway)
 
 
I believe you are uying the propaganda, and THIS IS FALSE SEAN.
 
I been in Cuba TWICE and know it from very close.
 
I broke a tooth in the hotel adter a fight with a jealous husband (I didn't knew she was married until the husband came to the hotel Confused), and had an insurance (Assist Card) that covered me US$ 800.00 bucks per minor accident.
 
I went to the BEST hospital (Varadero is a touristic center where they have the best services for tourists who leave their dollars), it was depressing, a square room of 4 X 4 meters with a dentist chair in the center and surrounded by the patients (No waiting room).
 
Being foreigner and paying in cash I was the second to receive attention:
  1. Nobody cleaned the instrumnents after each patient, so if somebody had hepatitis B or AIDS you were in risk.
  2. The Doctor didn't knew where to start.
  3. In that situation I asked or a non invasibe treatment only photo sensible resine to cover the tooth.
  4. The doctor didn't had resine, he had to use cement.
  5. He didn't had a clue where to start (Everybody is doctor, even the girl who cleans my toilet)
  6. The material got destroyed after 4 hours.
  7. The doctor charged me US$ 300.00 I had to claim the money to Assist Card and they paid inmediately
  8. There was a canadian Doctor hosted in the hotel with his emergency kitl, made me buy the resine that was availlable in the black market (The bag said donated by Holland, not for sale), the doctot also bought the ultra violet light pen which was very cheap for emergencies (Also donation) whicjh he keprt because he said it was fgreat technology.
  9. With his basic kit, ths 23 years old dentist from Canada made an excellent job in the hotel room that my dentist in Lima couldn't believe.

Another day I asked the guy who directed recreational sports in the Hotel why there were no patients with AIDS or Tuberculosis accoeding to the official papers, he told me that they have lots of AIDS patients, but once they are diagnosed they are lterally lumped  in the very modern Leprosory building also donated but empty of medixcines.

So, the story they have sold us is FALSE, medicine sucks in Cuba, people die every day wi6th a simple pneumonia, despíte Europe gives them first line antibiotics that are sold in the black market IN DOLLARS (Nobody accepts Pesos) and only a small percentage goes to the hospitals and clinics 
 
This guy is a doctor and he told me the numbers are FALSE, they manipulate the information hidding the sick people in terrible places.
 
Please guys, when you listen this wonderful stories of miracle medicine or romantic revolutions, investigate and you'll find most are false and the romantic revolutuions are Dictator getting rich and giving scraps to the poor people and stying with the donations..
 
Nobody told me, I been there.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 02 2007 at 12:15
            
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