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Topic ClosedCD vs. mp3 ... a professional test

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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 08:47
The reviews mean nothing, like the prizes. And if it's not well installed, it can't work as well.

Edited by oliverstoned - June 01 2007 at 08:47
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 08:48
^ they mean as little or as much as your statements.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 08:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 09:13
^ what do you expect ... it's opinion vs. opinion. Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 10:36
c't The Magazine for Computer Technique 
June/2000, p. 92: MP3-Comparison 
By Carsten Meyer 

Original German article: http://www.heise.de/ct/00/06/092/
 

Cross-examination test 

The c't-Reader’s Listening Test: MP3 versus CD

 
 
Mike, you are the first one to criticize the MP3's poor perfomances (and constantly advocate compression-less formats) and this article was published in 2000 and I highlighted in red the magazine's name who has to prove everything in order to achieve credibility (and really failing to do so)
 
I will not criticize the test, I wasn't there (and couldn't care less really), but to whom does the crime profit, really!!!
 
Think it over the WE and read you monday. Wink
 
Thanks for pulling Olivier out of self-imposed retirement with this blatant bait, though.LOL
 
Welcome back Olivier Hug
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
BTW, please act friendly, as we are under surveillance as one of PE's mole has giving this thread's link for scrutiny...
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 10:44
^ "Mike, you are the first one to criticize the MP3's poor perfomances"

Not true at all. I even created a thread in this section which explains how to rip CDs properly to mp3 ... it can sound awful if not done correctly, but it can get amazingly close to the original.

About the magazine (c't): They are a very reliable source of information. They take their job very seriously and when they test audio equipment they always supply detailed technical information. They are a computer magazine first and foremost, but they often test professional studio equipment like for example audio interfaces.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 10:48
Hello sean! Nice to hear from you again.

And let me post that article:

MP3 & the Marginalization of High End Audio

John Atkinson, February, 1999

It was the weirdest orchestral balance I'd ever heard. The gentle woodwind chords that begin Mendelssohn's incidental music to A Midsummer Night's Dream were as loud as the climactic "Wedding March" that ends the piece. The radio broadcast was obviously being compressed to hell. Yet, sitting at the wheel of the rented Vauxhall Vectra I was driving down to Cornwall for an old friend's surprise 50th birthday party, I was actually glad for the compression. Had Classic FM broadcast the Mendelssohn with its true dynamic range intact, the quiet passages would have been irretrievably buried in the road noise and the loud passages would have had me lunging for the volume control, to the possible danger of those sharing England's congested A303 trunk road with me.

Compression has its place when mandated by suboptimal playback circumstances, such as in a car. But as compression also raises the average energy levels of recordings, thus making them sound louder without their peak levels being changed, its use is ubiquitous when CDs are mastered to make them sound more aggressive on the radio.

Take this issue's "Recording of the Month," for example: Mutations, from post-modern waif Beck. Of the contenders music editor Robert Baird had gathered for this issue's feature, I voted for this CD on musical grounds. And yes, Mutations does sound very clean, and the mixes have been done with musically literate intelligence. But, as revealed by the professional Dorrough loudness meter I use for my own mastering and mixing, the recording's dynamic range (footnote 1) is only a few decibels. Compare that with Stereophile's Duet CD, which has a dynamic range of well over 40dB—a 100:1 level ratio.

I am fortunate to have grown up in a family involved in live music making, and to have spent my formative time playing in orchestras and other acoustic ensembles. And my active involvement in rock music came at a time when the sound of acoustic, unmiked drums set the volume level for the rest of the band. I know what the real thing sounds like, and I can recognize the effects of studio tricks like compression. (Although, as you'll read in the article on the recording of Stereophile's new jazz CD, Rendezvous, in the March issue, I am not averse to their judicious use.) However, if all people listen to at the turn of the millennium is rock recordings like the new Beck album, and Classic FM and its American equivalents, then I begin to worry about the purpose of the High End.

What, for example, is the point of spending a large sum of money on a loudspeaker like the Revel Gem, which I reviewed last October? The Gem was engineered to minimize compression, but if the music its owner likes to play has had the dynamic range engineered out of it, the advance in speaker performance represented by the Gem is rendered moot.

And if listeners are no longer in touch with what the real thing sounds like, can it be surprising that a medium that actively abandons quality can become successful? In his item on Internet audio in "Industry Update" (p.35), Jon Iverson states that "MP3-formatted audio files are considered to be the most popular streaming technology on the Internet." It could be argued that MP3 has been the most significant introduction of a new audio medium since the CD 16 years ago. Yet not only has Stereophile almost completely ignored the MP3 audio format, so has every other audio magazine—as has the high-end audio industry itself.

But of course, you murmur, MP3 (MPEG 1 or 2, Layer 3) encoding is such an aggressive data-reduction algorithm that it does not produce sonic results that could be defined as high fidelity. Why, it even treats the basic signal as mono, the stereo illusion being provided by an attempt to encode the difference between the two stereo channels. If it isn't high fidelity, then an industry that strives for the highest fidelity shouldn't bother with it.

But when we turn our backs on what our potential customers and readers are doing, don't we marginalize ourselves—particularly as we audiophiles tend to concentrate on the tools, not the experience? As Kinhluan Nguyenngoc posted on The Audiophile Network back in March 1994, "I believe the rags are leading music lovers down the wrong, component-centric path—buy the 'right' component, and everything will be copacetic."

As if that weren't enough for high-end audio, societal evolution seems to be marginalizing the act of listening to music for its own sake in favor of music as a background activity. If my own experience is anything to go by, the increasing bombardment of information—from traditional media as well as from the Internet—makes it harder to budget the time to listen seriously to one, two, or three hours of music at a time. Yet I do manage to budget that time. But when I talk to multitasking Generation Xers or Yers, they look askance at me for devoting so much time to a single activity. "They think I'm nuts for just sitting and listening," an acquaintance agreed when I mentioned this to him.

Perhaps there is something antisocial about cocooning oneself in a room dedicated to recorded music with a solitary chair in the sweet spot, compared with sitting with a bunch of friends watching a new movie on DVD with good, enveloping surround sound. Again, it looks as though we audiophiles are marginalizing ourselves.

So if quality in sound reproduction is out of fashion and solitary listening to music as a goal is no longer normal or even socially acceptable behavior, then is it any surprise that in the midst of a boom in consumer spending, sales of two-channel audio equipment are flat? Is there any reason to think that high-end audio reproduction has a future at all?

Yes. High-end audio is not dead, or even dying. As I reported last month, the introduction of DVD-Audio, with its combination of inherently better-than-CD quality combined with a native multichannel format, will re-excite the public's interest in audio quality. Sales may currently be flat, but music is fundamentally important to human existence; as an essential adjunct to music, high-end audio will always be with us. In fact, although more people are listening to poor-quality sound than ever before—thanks to MP3, cynically designed boomboxes, and shoddy all-in-one systems—the average quality of audio is higher than it has ever been, and the market for high-quality audio equipment is bigger than it has ever been.

As I've pointed out in recent "As We See It" essays, it's not that the potential customers for high-end audio components have disappeared, but that the high-end audio industry has lost sight of ways to reach those customers.


Footnote 1: Dynamic range is defined here as the difference between the peak levels of the loud and soft passages. Dynamic range is more formally defined as the difference between the peak level and the noise floor.

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 11:00
^ nice article, but I don't see the relevance for the topic of this thread. He says very little about mp3: "But of course, you murmur, MP3 (MPEG 1 or 2, Layer 3) encoding is such an aggressive data-reduction algorithm that it does not produce sonic results that could be defined as high fidelity. Why, it even treats the basic signal as mono, the stereo illusion being provided by an attempt to encode the difference between the two stereo channels. If it isn't high fidelity, then an industry that strives for the highest fidelity shouldn't bother with it." Well, this statement disqualifies him as a reliable source of information (at least for me), since the part which I underlined is simply not true. MP3 in fact includes a feature which is called "Joint Stereo", which wasn't implemented correctly in some of the early mp3 encoders but has been fixed a long time ago (and surely the guys at c't didn't make this beginners mistake).

BTW: Of course mp3 is not audiophile. It does aggressively compress the signal (incidentally: this has nothing to do with compression in the analog world which he talks about in the first few paragraphs) ... of course this only makes sense if there are reasons for doing so, like when you have limited storage capacity on a portable player, or you want to stream music on the internet where bandwith is an important factor.

Remember: All that I am saying is that at high bitrates it can be extremely difficult to tell the mp3 from the CD, even with a setup which most people (exluding you, obviously) consider to be really hi-fi. Anybody who thinks this is ridiculous should really try for him/herself before dismissing it ... to do so you need a high quality mp3 file and either a good sound card to connect the PC to the hi-fi amp or a CD burner.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 01 2007 at 11:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 11:38
To conclude: digital was a regression, sub-digital is even worst...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 11:43
^ I have a question for you: In all honesty, did you ever listen to a properly ripped/encoded track like they did in the test?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 11:49
I've done better: to compare a burned-computer Cd versus the orignal, which is, according to your theories, the exact copy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 13:03
^ those aren't just my theories. May I ask how the original CD was ripped and/or which software was used to burn the copy?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 13:57
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

The reviews mean nothing, like the prizes. And if it's not well installed, it can't work as well.
 
The reviews mean everything, otherwise how would we know hgow to buy?
 
And about installatrion, its irrelevant as you called it a "poor" Cd player anyway!
 
I'll not waste my time further with this "discussion". I don't see anyones opinion changing.


Edited by Snow Dog - June 01 2007 at 13:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2007 at 18:57
Originally posted by Glueman Glueman wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

 
If you did, whatever your thoughts about the testing procedure you would not have made that statement.Smile
 
You think?
 
you're right...I need to keep out of these HiFi/Mp3 discussions...isnt rutting season over yet?Tongue
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 02:05
This is far too interesting and no other posters should interfere - keep it up guys, you have an obligation to entertain.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 04:26
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 06:00
Mike - don't tell me I said something you approved of?Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 06:05
^ so far you haven't said much in this thread ... but then again there isn't much to say either. I'm not sure why Snow Dog and Tony expect some kind of big debate. I created the thread simply to present the article ... any discussions are welcome, but it's obvious that most people will accept the test results, while some audiophiles will simply ignore them. It's the way of the world!LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 06:13
For me the Mp3 format is excellent when used from the bands/ artists/ producers (or from Internet site) in stream version to promote songs or video. Otherwise I find more interesting the CD format.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2007 at 06:21
Well you did presetn it to prove a point though, didn't you?
 
Whilst, in the main, I accept it - I have one problem - now you've sucked me in. Whilst MP3 has improved, it still does not approach Hi-Fi quality, in my experience. Mp3s are all compressed yes? This, in itself, creates a compromise. It's fine for listening on PCs or in mobile environments, but the compression means that it's not up to the standard of CD. And, as yet, there is no high end equipment option for inytegrating into a Hi-Fi. That's my problem with it. I have no desire to listen to music on a mobile device or a PC - why would I ?  I have a really good home system that enables me to hear every nuance and creates a soundstage that no small, enclosed system is capable of delivering.
We need to keep in focus here. Some folks are happy to listen to music - whatever the medium. Others demand the highest quality possible.
 
Another point I'd like to make - with no inferences to anyone, living or dead. Just as an aside - some folks like to have a good system and show off the sound - "How good is this kit?", they will put on pieces of music to display the impressive capabilities of their kit. Others like to have a good system to enjoy the music that much more.
We must all make our own decisions as to which camp we fall into - and respect the opinions of others who either disagree, or who just like to do their own thing.
 
I'm done!
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