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Equality 7-2521 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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 Posted: May 30 2007 at 13:48 |
 ozzy_tom wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
ozzy_tom wrote:
If I were an American I would vote for Libertarian Party candidate (doesn't matter who is he). Anyway anybody know what's the name of libertarians' candidate in US for now? (they chosen one candidate for now?) |
They haven't held their primary yet but I believe the front runner is George Phillies.
Libertarians, I agree with them economically 100% and agree with them socially 0%. |
What's so terrible in their social ideas for you ? |
Free reign of abortion, drugs, and prostitution. Also the idea that the only thing sacrosanct is consumer's choice troubles me. I don't see how a culture could survive under those conditions.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - May 30 2007 at 13:55
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 13:50 |
Topographic wrote:
ozzy_tom wrote:
If I were an American I would vote for Libertarian Party candidate (doesn't matter who is he). Anyway anybody know what's the name of libertarians' candidate in US for now? (they chosen one candidate for now?) |
No, they haven't chosen a candidate yet. I'm rather curious to see who they come up with. I believe their '04 candidate, Michael Badnarik isn't planning on running again. I actually voted for him last time because I absolutely couldn't stand Bush or Kerry, and while I didn't entirely agree with Badnarik, I agreed with his ideas more than any of the others.
Personally, I'd just prefer to see the two-party system done away with. It doesn't seem like it's about the issues any more, just the (R) or (D) next to someone's name. We've basically just got a bunch of Sirruses and Achenars in office (Myst reference ) as far as I'm concerned. If indie rock is so darn popular, why can't indie politicians be the next big thing?
If it comes down to it, I'll either be voting Libertarian, or if I have to be conformist, Obama, if he makes it through the primaries. Maybe Giuliani. Hillary just scares the  out of me . . .
Of course, we could all write in Jon Anderson. Just thing the campaign platform: rearranging the country's liver to the solid mental grace. I'm not sure about awakening gentle mass touching, though.
-Topographic
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How could you support either Obama or a Libertarian candidate? They seem pretty much mutually exclusive.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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ozzy_tom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 15 2006
Location: China/Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 754
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 16:46 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
ozzy_tom wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
ozzy_tom wrote:
If I were an American I would vote for Libertarian Party candidate (doesn't matter who is he). Anyway anybody know what's the name of libertarians' candidate in US for now? (they chosen one candidate for now?) |
They haven't held their primary yet but I believe the front runner is George Phillies.
Libertarians, I agree with them economically 100% and agree with them socially 0%. |
What's so terrible in their social ideas for you ? |
Free reign of abortion, drugs, and prostitution. Also the idea that the only thing sacrosanct is consumer's choice troubles me. I don't see how a culture could survive under those conditions. |
In fact I'm also opposed of abortion 'cause for me this is just killing children and I don't agree with most of libertarians here (but anyway I've heard that there are also libertarians who aren't pro-abortionists. This is something like more right-wing liberatarians or something like that). About drugs and prostitution I completely agree with them that this shouldn't be limited by government, I think that people can chose their own way of life if they don't limited other people's freedom. (anyway drugs and prostitution are bad things in my point of view !!)
According to culture: I think that government is a threat for culture and without its support lots of great things in culture were created. I think that good art will always defend by itself...and we are the best example of this situation: we can enjoy the most ambitious music without any government's support 
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 22:28 |
Vote Democrat everyone.
Drugs and abortion for all!!!
Drugs for everyone!
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Atomic_Rooster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 26 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1210
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 22:33 |
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I'm pro-abortion (every single fetus gets aborted), so I'm voting Democrat also!
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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 22:37 |
haha
One thing I WILL admit....those religious right/republicans/moral warriors w/e did a GENIUS move by calling their position pro-life.
Because if you disagree with them, what doest that make you? Pro-death.
Gotta love political spin.
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 22:40 |
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My opinion is, I could care less if you do hard drugs nightly or hire prostitutes on a weekly basis, because these are both victimless crimes. Why should drugs be outlawed? The only person this directly harms is the person taking the drug, and that's their decision. Prostitution is consentual sex between adults. Who does that harm?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 23:05 |
rileydog22 wrote:
My opinion is, I could care less if you do hard drugs nightly or hire prostitutes on a weekly basis, because these are both victimless crimes. Why should drugs be outlawed? The only person this directly harms is the person taking the drug, and that's their decision. Prostitution is consentual sex between adults. Who does that harm? |
Exactly
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 23:10 |
rileydog22 wrote:
My opinion is, I could care less if you do hard drugs nightly or hire prostitutes on a weekly basis, because these are both victimless crimes. Why should drugs be outlawed? The only person this directly harms is the person taking the drug, and that's their decision. Prostitution is consentual sex between adults. Who does that harm?
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I disagree, in a way. Sure, no one other than the user is directly harmed by prostitution or drug use, but think of all the people indirectly harmed by the cartels and drug lords, and the pimps. There's a lot of collateral damage, especially in the drug trade.
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Topographic
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 05 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 71
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 05:30 |
Well, you are correct that that does seem a little contradictory. The main reason I'd consider voting Obama is because he simply seems like an intelligent and thoughtful human being. Even though there are some things I don't entirely agree with him on, I have respect for him. I find him to be probably the least-offensive "major" party (as much as I hate to use that term) candidate running. I'd actually consider myself a "moderate" libertarian. -Topographic
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Have you rearranged your liver to the solid mental grace today?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 10:08 |
ozzy_tom wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
ozzy_tom wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
ozzy_tom wrote:
If I were an American I would vote for Libertarian Party candidate (doesn't matter who is he). Anyway anybody know what's the name of libertarians' candidate in US for now? (they chosen one candidate for now?) |
They haven't held their primary yet but I believe the front runner is George Phillies.
Libertarians, I agree with them economically 100% and agree with them socially 0%. |
What's so terrible in their social ideas for you ? |
Free reign of abortion, drugs, and prostitution. Also the idea that the only thing sacrosanct is consumer's choice troubles me. I don't see how a culture could survive under those conditions. |
In fact I'm also opposed of abortion 'cause for me this is just killing children and I don't agree with most of libertarians here (but anyway I've heard that there are also libertarians who aren't pro-abortionists. This is something like more right-wing liberatarians or something like that). About drugs and prostitution I completely agree with them that this shouldn't be limited by government, I think that people can chose their own way of life if they don't limited other people's freedom. (anyway drugs and prostitution are bad things in my point of view !!)
According to culture: I think that government is a threat for culture and without its support lots of great things in culture were created. I think that good art will always defend by itself...and we are the best example of this situation: we can enjoy the most ambitious music without any government's support |
There's a point where the direct safety of the nation outweighs the need for personal freedom. Legalizing prostitution and drugs has two dangerous effects as I see it. One, both lead to a moral erosion and work against the most basic bonds of family and marriage. Again I'll say that I don't see a way a society can propegate without these most basic foundations. Secondly, it is giving the government a powerful means of control. Take ancient Rome as an example, to pacify the populus and distract them matters of the state they distracted the population with extreme sexual decadence and with the famous blood sports. Openning the door to these things gives the government a powerful way of controling its people instead of the people controling the government.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 10:22 |
rileydog22 wrote:
My opinion is, I could care less if you do hard drugs nightly or hire prostitutes on a weekly basis, because these are both victimless crimes. Why should drugs be outlawed? The only person this directly harms is the person taking the drug, and that's their decision. Prostitution is consentual sex between adults. Who does that harm? |
Drugs hurts more than just the people taking them. Imagine if your father was a heroin junkie. Would that affect just him? Is he just an island without any connections to anyone else, or would you be upset to see him laying in a gutter scratting at his arm and muttering incoherently. He loses his job because he can't function normally and now you have no provider for your family. His parents are forced to see their son a wreck of a man and unable to help. All his friends have to go through it. No man is an island. The affect of drug use is manyfold. Even if it were hypothetically victimless, it's long been recognized that it's not beneficial for a culture to teach that one can decide to bring ruin to himself, thats why we have anti-suicide statutes.
For prostitution I can also bring up the morality/structural fundamentalism defence, but it also goes deeper than that. (Though I can barely forgive myself for sounding like a bleeding heart liberal when I say this) Prostituion hurts women as a whole and to a degree much more profound than pornography. It's the ultimate objectification where the woman is merely a good purchased to fufil a desire. It cheapens them to a sickening degree. I can imagine bringing up a daughter in a society that teaches that selling yourself like an animal is a perfectly acceptable means of work.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 10:28 |
JJLehto wrote:
haha
One thing I WILL admit....those religious right/republicans/moral warriors w/e did a GENIUS move by calling their position pro-life.
Because if you disagree with them, what doest that make you? Pro-death.
Gotta love political spin.
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Well they didn't do that great of a job then because if you disagree with them you're called Pro-Choice. And if you disagree with being Pro-Choice you apparently hate women and their right to control their bodies.
It's not political spin it's simply the correct description. Being pro-life entails being against abortion, against the death penalty, and against euthanasia, amoung other things. It's just what it says, being for human life in all cases.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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blaughida
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 143
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 10:44 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
haha
One thing I WILL admit....those religious right/republicans/moral warriors w/e did a GENIUS move by calling their position pro-life.
Because if you disagree with them, what doest that make you? Pro-death.
Gotta love political spin.
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Well they didn't do that great of a job then because if you disagree with them you're called Pro-Choice. And if you disagree with being Pro-Choice you apparently hate women and their right to control their bodies.
It's not political spin it's simply the correct description. Being pro-life entails being against abortion, against the death penalty, and against euthanasia, amoung other things. It's just what it says, being for human life in all cases. |
I've glad you are consistent with these positions; the truly "pro-life" stance you're describing does make sense, though I disagree strongly with anyone who wants to make abortion illegal, whatever their moral views on the subject. The thing is, if you look at many of the politicians who use "pro-life" rhetoric on abortion, they are also extremely supportive of the death penalty, saying it makes them "tough on crime."
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 11:13 |
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^ While I don't agree with this dual stance I don't see it as necessarily contradictory. There are very large distinctions between killing a criminal and killing a child. However, I also feel at times that as you said that stance is simply for political reasons.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 11:27 |
OK, spin was not the right word....but you see what I was getting at.
and you're right. The Democrats tried to do exactly the same thing.
Besides, I don't actually like debating abortion because it's the most opinionated topic there is. In my bio class we had a debate in it, no matter what argument either side used it always boiled down to: The woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her body, or you're killing a life before it has a chance to live.
It's all your personal feelings really.
Edited by JJLehto - May 31 2007 at 11:31
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