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clarke2001 View Drop Down
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 07:10
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

We shouldn't really care about the "uproar" Metallica's inclusion would cause. What's this "uproar"? Probably two things:
 
1. Heated debates
2. Members leaving
 
1. Even if a few debates could get out of hand, what's the most negative that can come out of them? Debate is always for the better, it helps people underdstand each other and their reasons; 80% of the time, those that enter a heated discussion won't change their mind even if the evidence and the reaons are 100% against them... But it will be for the benefit of those others that are yet to decide on an issue or that still are magin their minds. What if a debate goes out of hand? Well, topic closed. We have one of them every week. And many for non-musical reasons. This site is an INTERNET site, while there should be harmony between the members, that's not a requisite. As long as we respect the rules and don't do anything that damages the website, if some people don't get along with others that's fine, it's over the internet, we won't meet each other, we're only sharing some bandwidth because Fate has wanted us to like somewhat of the same kind of music.
 
2. If members DO leave because of A BAND's inclusion, that's FINE! Great! This site doesn't need to have 100000 of members but just GOOD members who are ready to accept some decisions that are made. If a member leaves the site only because a polemic band was added, he/she's showing that he/she can't take another person's arguments winning over his/hers, and PA is better off without that individual. But that shouldn't be a problem, as most leaving members will most likely COME BACK. Why? Once they go out and see all the other prog-websites, they'll start seeing that NOT ONE is as complete (nearly as complete) as this one....Seriously... I don't like Post-rock, but I agree that's a prog genre... How many other prog websites have GY!BE or MOGWAI in their lists? You know how much I love Kayo Dot, yet I can see why they are here. How many other prog websites have Kayo Dot? Most prog websites don't even have bands like Mr. Bungle, any Zeuhl, or someone as important as Zappa!! And most of every other website may acknowledge the fact that Yes, Genesis and all of those existed, but where can you find all their discography and reviews? So believe me, the "members leaving" issues is not really an issue.... Call it PURIFICATION. What needs to go, will go. What needs to stay, will either stay, or go and come back.
 
I see this site as a huge, gigantic encyclopedia of prog. Instead of a 30000-page book that would need quite the coffee table to hold it, we have a website with all the information. Now think that any encyclopedia is better when IT"S COMPLETE. And progressive-metal's history IS NOT COMPLETE when its main creator is not even mentioned.


All I can say:

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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 07:28
Originally posted by Sckxyss Sckxyss wrote:

Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Well, if Iron Maiden are "progressive" enough for the archives, I can't see how Metallica aren't. I'd rather kick out Maiden than making the mistake of including more metal.

The best idea, however, would be to remove the Prog Related and Proto-Prog categories. Wouldn't mind removing those categories, but Vangelis, ELO, Pärson Sound... mm, gotta stay.
 
1000% AGREE


ca. 85% AGREE
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 07:42
I agree with clarke's statement about 242% ... people should focus more on the bands which they approve of than on the bands which they don't think belong here. After all, if a band like Metallica gets added anyone who objects gets the chance to submit a review which explains in detail why they think the band (or in this case the particular album) doesn't belong here.
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Rocktopus View Drop Down
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 07:53
I'd give Metallica three or four five stars if they actually get included. It will of course, just like them being here, be misleading. I'm not gonna punish an album for not being prog if I think its a masterpiece. Now, and in discussions like this is the time to say I don't think Metallica belongs here, and why.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 08:21
I've only been active on the forum for a few days so am not qualified to say what should or should not be included; however I have been a passive reader of the Archive for many years and find it an invaluable resource. Apart from the RSS feeds, the pages are passive, they just sit there until someone searches them. If Metallica are/were there then I would never find them because I simply would never think of looking.
 
Would they have to change their name to Hetfield and the North? Stern%20Smile
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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 08:23
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Now, and in discussions like this is the time to say I don't think Metallica belongs here, and why.
 
You forgot to say why Wink
 
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

I've only been active on the forum for a few days so am not qualified to say what should or should not be included; however I have been a passive reader of the Archive for many years and find it an invaluable resource. Apart from the RSS feeds, the pages are passive, they just sit there until someone searches them. If Metallica are/were there then I would never find them because I simply would never think of looking.
 
That hardly matters - no-one's saying that Metallica are a major Prog Rock band, just that their contribution to Prog Metal is such that the entire genre would probably not exist without them.
 
 
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Would they have to change their name to Hetfield and the North? Stern%20Smile
 
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Edited by Certif1ed - May 21 2007 at 08:25
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 08:47
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
That hardly matters - no-one's saying that Metallica are a major Prog Rock band, just that their contribution to Prog Metal is such that the entire genre would probably not exist without them.
 
::sharp intake of breath::
 
Yes it would, the origins of Prog Metal go back a little further than Metallica and the genre would have arisen regardless. There is a wonderful family tree of metal here that shows a tenuous link between Bay Area Thrash and Prog Metal
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 09:02
^ it's a nice chart, but it suggests that prog metal is a confined genre derived from heavy metal, nwobhm and prog rock. That's quite correct if you look at the early years of prog metal (80s) but in the last 20 years many other sub genres of metal have been "infected" with prog ... one of these genres is thrash metal, and Metallica laid the foundation for that development ... call it "Prog Thrash Metal" if you will. 
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 09:17
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ it's a nice chart, but it suggests that prog metal is a confined genre derived from heavy metal, nwobhm and prog rock. That's quite correct if you look at the early years of prog metal (80s) but in the last 20 years many other sub genres of metal have been "infected" with prog ... one of these genres is thrash metal, and Metallica laid the foundation for that development ... call it "Prog Thrash Metal" if you will. 
 
That was/is my contention, though you have expressed it far more fluently, prog metal existed before thrash metal, but as you say, it has changed over the past 20 years and drawn influences from everywhere. Cathedral's Endtyme has huge slabs of prog-influence (and even experimental space-rock) running through it, but their brand of doom goes nowhere near Metallica.
 
(erm, I'm not actually against Metallica being in the archive btw. I just question their world domination)
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 09:30
^ I don't think that Metallica "invented" prog metal ... but they expanded the metal "vocabulary", and their new "words" were later also used by various prog metal bands. It's not pure coincidence that Dream Theater performed Master of Puppets in its entirety ... Big%20smile
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 09:36
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I don't think that Metallica "invented" prog metal ... but they expanded the metal "vocabulary", and their new "words" were later also used by various prog metal bands. It's not pure coincidence that Dream Theater performed Master of Puppets in its entirety ... Big%20smile
I haven't heard their version (yet), and acknowledge Metallica's influence on Dream Theater, but not necessarily on bands like Riverside or Evergrey.
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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 09:51
Like I said above: "Prog Thrash". Metal is a really wide genre ... of course there are bands with very little influence of Thrash Metal and no apparent connection to Metallica. 

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 21 2007 at 10:26
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Rocktopus View Drop Down
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 10:23
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Now, and in discussions like this is the time to say I don't think Metallica belongs here, and why.
 
You forgot to say why Wink


This isn't my first post here.
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Philéas View Drop Down
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 13:09
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Well, if Iron Maiden are "progressive" enough for the archives, I can't see how Metallica aren't. I'd rather kick out Maiden than making the mistake of including more metal.

The best idea, however, would be to remove the Prog Related and Proto-Prog categories. Wouldn't mind removing those categories, but Vangelis, ELO, Pärson Sound... mm, gotta stay.


ca. 85% AGREE



I would also prefer removing Iron Maiden, but it isn't going to happen, unfortunately. Because the site apparently has a policy to let all inclusions stay, however wrong they may be.

Regarding certain artists in the Prog Related and Proto-Prog categories which needs to be here, I think it's better being under-inclusive than over-inclusive. Some artists make those two categories make sense, but having the categories results in more questionable and unnecessary additions than necessary ones, just have a look.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 13:22
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ it's a nice chart, but it suggests that prog metal is a confined genre derived from heavy metal, nwobhm and prog rock. That's quite correct if you look at the early years of prog metal (80s) but in the last 20 years many other sub genres of metal have been "infected" with prog ... one of these genres is thrash metal, and Metallica laid the foundation for that development ... call it "Prog Thrash Metal" if you will. 
 
That was/is my contention, though you have expressed it far more fluently, prog metal existed before thrash metal, but as you say, it has changed over the past 20 years and drawn influences from everywhere. Cathedral's Endtyme has huge slabs of prog-influence (and even experimental space-rock) running through it, but their brand of doom goes nowhere near Metallica.
 
(erm, I'm not actually against Metallica being in the archive btw. I just question their world domination)
 
The world domination is fairly obviously down to the huge cross-over popularity of the Black album - but the thrash style remains the most significant development in metal music since the tritone and the riff, and Hammett's constructed approach to solos was pretty rare at the time.
 
The "prog metal" that existed before Metallica was fairly lame, on the whole - if we take Queensryche as the prime example (maybe they're not, but the genre was hardly awash with great bands in the early 1980s), then what we have is a kind of clinically precise version of a Judas Priest/Iron Maiden clone - not progressive in the slightest, just a bit of spit and polish on the old music to remove the feeling.
 
Metallica dominated because a) they wanted to, b) the music was strong enough and unique/original enough to do it and c) they had the right producer.
 
Dream Theater brought Prog Metal to everyone's attention, and their style depended heavily on Metallica - hence it's obvious that Prog Metal owes them a huge debt. Dream Theater could not have produced their early albums without Metallica riffs.
 
Cathedral are hardly Progressive - most Doom metal isn't, even though its fans might like it to be.
 
 
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Now, and in discussions like this is the time to say I don't think Metallica belongs here, and why.
 
You forgot to say why Wink


This isn't my first post here.
 
It is in this thread.


Edited by Certif1ed - May 21 2007 at 13:30
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 13:29
I don't listen to Metallica much, and though I like Master of Puppets a bit, I admit The Black Album is certainly my favorite. I think that on their earlier thrash albums, which I admit I haven't listened to often or completely (Kill 'Em All, Ride the Lightning), they seem like extended metal songs to me, with hardly much virtuosity (a key element of most prog metal I've heard of) except in the solos. The shifts in their songs seem to be mundane, and they are rarely atmospheric or unpredictable, I believe. To me, Metallica was their best when they wrote rock songs, not thrash songs. If they had a better, less monotonous drummer, maybe they could pull off thrash better.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 13:31
^You can refresh your memory with the clips earlier in this thread.
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 13:53
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
It is in this thread.


Actually it isn't... He's made more posts. Wink
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 14:59
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I agree with clarke's statement about 242% ... people should focus more on the bands which they approve of than on the bands which they don't think belong here. After all, if a band like Metallica gets added anyone who objects gets the chance to submit a review which explains in detail why they think the band (or in this case the particular album) doesn't belong here.


That would just mean more work for Guigo and Bob, because that is a violation of review guidelines. Wink
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Points: 976 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2007 at 15:17
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by akin akin wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by akin akin wrote:



The most prog Metallica can be is Prog Related, because compared with Iron Maiden or Led Zepelin, for example, they are at the same level. So if this is the matter, the right thing is to lobby with the owners, because they are who authorize these controvertial additions to the site.
 
We're not talking about Prog Rock related - although I identified a couple of areas in which Metallica were Prog related.
 
Prog Metal is different to Prog Rock - which is exactly why Iron Maiden are included here.


Nobody is talking about prog rock related or prog metal related, just prog related, since prog rock related and prog metal related and prog fusion related and prog electronic related are the same in essence.
 
No they are not the same in essence at all - I would have thought that obvious - unless you're saying that all music is related because it contains notes!
 
To follow your argument above to its logical conclusion, Metallica are necessarily related, because they share exactly the same roots as all the genres you listed - so they should be here.
 
You only have to hear almost any Prog Metal album ever released to work out just how closely related it is to Metallica.


It is not the same in essence only if you are not just and you have a preference for prog-metal over other genres, otherwise you would know that every related-band is related to prog. This is crucial because you weakest argument is that almost any Prog Metal album released is related to Metallica. Many bands have some relation to Metallica's sound because they are metal. Non-prog folk artists have much in common to prog-folk artists, because they are folk. The same goes with prog metal and Metallica.
 
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

You may take my comments as fanboyism if you like, but I can assure you that is not the case - I am not pushing for Metallica to be included in the site because I like them a lot - there is genuine reasoning in my arguments based on observable fact - and even examples that illustrate those facts.
 
I could care less about their inclusion really, but the ommission has never made sense to me.


I don't take your comments as fanboyism, but if Metallica is added many people will discharge their hates for the inclusion in those who strongly supported the addition, accusing them of fanboyism, like people already did and led some collabs to quit.
 
OK, so your worry is that people will hate it and leave.
 
Most come back, once they've licked their "wounds" and got over their egos - I'm sure that less of that petulant behaviour goes on these days. Almost NO-ONE leaves ProgArchives for good - it really is the Hotel Prognifornia.
 
As Mike and The T say - and I 100% agree - Metallica are grossly overlooked for their progressive NATURE - not tendencies, mark you, but nature, in the first 5 albums. Their intent may or may not have been to be Progressive - but remember that Robert Fripp's intent was not necessarily to be Progressive either - and he hates the term Progressive Rock, according to reports.
 
Even Genesis only really managed to progress over 5 albums, if the hardcore fans are anything to go by, so Metallica are in the same league on that level.



Progressive nature? No, it is just an unproven argument to pretend you are with the truth. There is no progressive nature at all. So you can't impair Metallica with King Crimson or Genesis using this argument, or anyone can claim that Cat Stevens, Elton John, David Bowie, Black Sabbath, Bee Gees, Oasis and Black Eyed Peas have a progressive nature.
 
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:


I'm not sure why you'd say my arguments are pretentious - as I said, they're based on fact, and are emphatically NOT trying to be something they're not. I'd be interested if you could illustrate the pretentious parts of my arguments so that I can improve my communication of my research and ideas.


Your first post is pretentious because it states that people who said no didn't think about the subject, when it is not true. ("It's the same as it always was - 1,000's of people ready to say "NO" without a single thought"). The other pretentious post were not yours.
 
That's not being pretentious - it's exactly as it says on the tin;
 
Since they only said NO, as on countless other occasions, what evidence of careful thought or reasoning is there?
 
There has been ample oportunity for the "NO" argument to voice its opinion, but "NO" is all that has been forthcoming, apart from the eloquent postings of Atavachron, in this thread.
 
With no reasons, all that exists is unjustified opinion - and who cares about that?
 
Once upon a time, everyone thought that the earth was flat - except a few that could plainly see it wasn't, because they had the right tools.



And you consider yourself one of the special selected group who can see the truth about what is prog and what is not? More pretentious than this is impossible. This last statement of yours proves that you are completely out of your reason. If Metallica is not metioned in almost evert other prog reliable source and a band that you state is less prog than Metallica, like Queensryche, is cited in every reliable source for prog, it is an evidence that you are creating arguments to support a theory that can only convince yourself and a few that already think like you, but hardly are expressing the truth. Your arguments are as valuable as the pseudoscience that works to create fake proves to prove a pre-concept of theirs.

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:


The ultimate decision needs to be taken by the Prog Metal team, who are the experts in such matters. All I can do is present evidence and arguments, and I respect their decision even if I don't agree with it.


It will not be a PMT decision because they already said they rejected it and even those who are in favour of them hardly say they are Prog, but that they have some proggish songs and they influenced bands, which is a common case for prog related. So the decision is more up to the admins (or owners if they make like in case of Led Zeppelin, when M@X voiced his will to adding them).
 
Thanks for correcting me on that - since I have the power to add bands (I made the controversial addition of The Beatles - with the full permission of M@X), I will see to it that Metallica get added at a time of my convenience.



Only if he agrees with you. Once he is an owner of the site, if he wants Metallica, who can deny it? Otherwise they will never get added at your convenience.

[QUOTE=Certif1ed]
 
It is quite clear that there are no reasons to omit Metallica apart from blind prejudice - or are there?



Yes, there are many reasons and the most important reason is that appart from few songs they have nothing in common with prog elements (song structure, unusual structure, singatures, complex melodic parts, harmonies). Other reason is that they influenced the metal side of prog-metal bands, not the prog side of the prog metal bands (I challenge you to mention statements made by prog metal musicians saying that Metallica had a primary influence in their prog part of sound.

And the argument of blind prejudice is usually used by those who have prejudice and try to invert the situation stating that all the arguments that do not agree with theirs are filled with prejudice.
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