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yargh

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 12:42

"ok...... we are not being dragged kicking anywhere. We offer plenty of free downloads in a variety of places, to take yet more is disrespectful, rude and damaging.......and lets face it a tad on the greedy side.
We ask fair payment for fair goods. It's not unreasonable."

You'd not be getting paid by me in any case. I've spent thousands on CDs over the years, but no artist has seen a penny of my money in at least 5 years. I buy everything used.

In any event, artists simply need to get used to the fact that people are going to get their stuff, for free, pretty much whenever they want. And this is a GOOD thing for all interested parties. It will lead to greater and greater sales and concert attendances.

Tony R

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:03

yargh wrote:

"ok...... we are not being dragged kicking anywhere. We offer plenty of free downloads in a variety of places, to take yet more is disrespectful, rude and damaging.......and lets face it a tad on the greedy side.
We ask fair payment for fair goods. It's not unreasonable."

You'd not be getting paid by me in any case. I've spent thousands on CDs over the years, but no artist has seen a penny of my money in at least 5 years. I buy everything used.

back after 13 months away....

Edited by Tony R - May 17 2007 at 13:08

Certif1ed

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:06

I don't see how not paying artists is a good thing - if you don't pay them, they can't afford to go on tour.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

yargh

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:11

"I don't see how not paying artists is a good thing - if you don't pay them, they can't afford to go on tour."

It's about exposure. The more you give away, the more you will sell.

Edited by yargh - May 17 2007 at 13:15

Certif1ed

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:14

^Please read my earlier response to a similar comment.

There are good and hurtful ways of obtaining music for free.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:18

yargh wrote:

You'd not be getting paid by me in any case. I've spent thousands on CDs over the years, but no artist has seen a penny of my money in at least 5 years. I buy everything used.

In any event, artists simply need to get used to the fact that people are going to get their stuff, for free, pretty much whenever they want. And this is a GOOD thing for all interested parties. It will lead to greater and greater sales and concert attendances.

Does anyone else see the contradiction here? Wink

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progismylife View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:30

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

yargh wrote:

You'd not be getting paid by me in any case. I've spent thousands on CDs over the years, but no artist has seen a penny of my money in at least 5 years. I buy everything used.

Does anyone else see the contradiction here? Wink

Just barely.

Wink

Wilcey

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:51

yeah, you know if musicians like give stuff away and get really famous, you know the mortgage company will say, "that's ok, you're famous, you don't need to pay"...... which'll be good cos we'll be SO busy answering the door to all butcher, baker, greengrocer etc who'll be delivering free food in honour of our fame that we wouldn't have time to pay them anyway!

What business school did you drop out of?

Sheeesh....... musicians (like the butcher, baker and candlestick maker) need and deserve to be paid for their product. (It's kind of how they fund the next product)

yargh

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 13:58

If you can't figure out that exposure leads to greater sales, I can't really help you.

But whatever -- I do what I want and will not be stopped. If I hear something that I like, I eventually buy it. If it doesn't really stick with me, I don't. Free downloads help the consumer, and as I'm sure you're aware, the customer is always right.

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 14:14

darqdean wrote:

Out of interest, how many artist permit 100% free download of their entire catalogue?

I was just wondering exactly how many Artists have voluntarily entered into the new era.

The prog metal band Mindflow have released two albums and you can download both of them in their entirety at their website.

progismylife View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 14:17

Exposure certainly helps the sales but if all that exposure is due to free downloads, why would someone pay for the albums when they can get it for free? Certainly the band would be well known but with no one buying albums the band would have to stop making music since they couldn't make ends meet

And seriously isn't this thread about joining th buy music legally cause?

Since it's been hijacked twice I think an admin should close it since some people feel it is necessary to do something which the website specifically wants you not to do...sheesh

yargh

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 14:21

"Exposure certainly helps the sales but if all that exposure is due to free downloads, why would someone pay for the albums when they can get it for free? Certainly the band would be well known but with no one buying albums the band would have to stop making music since they couldn't make ends meet."

Because the exposure is larger, more people will buy the albums, even if there is a percentage who would not. Funny how radio stations and blank cassette tapes did not hurt the music industry one iota. It's a shame that some artists are so short-sighted and greedy.

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 14:24

I am pretty tired of these threads being hijacked,and do not feel so indulgent anymore.I think has gone far enough.

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 16:29

I am going to re-open this because of the very courteous request I received from the topic creator to do so.Let's try to keep things on track please.

cuncuna

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:01

TheProgtologist wrote:

I am pretty tired of these threads being hijacked,and do not feel so indulgent anymore.I think has gone far enough.

¿What do you mean by "hijacked"?. I saw a smilar comment on another thread (wich was also closed).

¡Beware of the Bee!

Snow Dog

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:29

cuncuna wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

I am pretty tired of these threads being hijacked,and do not feel so indulgent anymore.I think has gone far enough.

¿What do you mean by "hijacked"?. I saw a smilar comment on another thread (wich was also closed).

He means that it has been taken over for other purposes.

Tony R

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:35

cuncuna wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

I am pretty tired of these threads being hijacked,and do not feel so indulgent anymore.I think has gone far enough.

¿What do you mean by "hijacked"?. I saw a smilar comment on another thread (wich was also closed).

We'll buy you a new hat if you promise to behave....

yface1

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 18:05

OK, to all. Basically I got a bit peeved that I couldn't out my own words into what was happening as I was at crummy, stupid work Cry

so I begged and pleaded (well, asked really) The Progtologist to let it re-open, if only for this last post, just so I could reply, answer and put my own thoughts and ideas into it. And the main reason, I felt left out! LOL

Anyway, here goes nothing. If it gets closed feel free to PM me and let me know if you think otherwise or whatever. If it stays open then carry on posting on topic without disgracing such an honest thread, please. And I did say please. Smile

erik neuteboom wrote:

I know many small progrock bands and also some small progrock mailorder services that suffer from the fact progheads download music illegally

Progheads should be aware that they are destroying their own favorite category but unfortunately many progheads are more eager to get music for free illegally than thinking forward and supporting their favorite category.
And this is most of the problem. Most people out there have no real idea just how much thought, work and effort goes into the production of music. In fact, most people don't even have the common sense to think about it properly. And I'm talking about your everyday music fan who listens exclusively to pop of any form. Whereas, with Prog being such a small genre (well, it is if you take the entire world of music into account) its just so horrible to see so called prog-fans download music cause they can....

darqdean wrote:

Most recording artists are not millionaires.

Most have part time jobs that they use to finance their passion and their art.

Can you buy your favorite bands CD in the supermarket? NO

Can you buy them from Amazon? Probably, but they are on a 28 day delivery

Can you buy them from niche genre websites? Usually.

Can you buy them from the band website? YES

Can you see them headline in a 50,000 capacity arena? NO

Can you see them in a 5,000 capacity venue? Maybe

Can you see them in a dingy 500 capacity club? YES

if your answers match mine then...

Will downloading their songs for free "stick it to the man"? NO

Will it hurt the artist? YES

Agreed. I have been to several shows featuring prog bands - some new and some that have been around for a while (Wishbone Ash) and all these bands were playing at venues where the capacity was 500max. Except Tool who played to about 750-1,000 people. But that's cause they are the exception to the rule (there's always one) And as far where you can get CD's from - you look long and hard like I do for about 5hours a week to get some bargains and maybe pay some extortionate prices for some gems. But that's most of the fun! or should be...

Frank Zoppa wrote:

If, hypothetically, Mozart's music was available to download illegaly he would have become very wealthy indeed. His work would have had a worldwide audience for his music, not just the domain of the aristocratic. The fact that he had high level of quality in his work would have guaranteed that the sales of whatever hypothetical media we are using for this debate, would have been very high. He would have become very wealthy.
The record industry stinks to high heaven.
Would you buy a car you haven't seen? No you wouldn't so why should you buy music you haven't heard before
OK, with regards Mozart, if he was born in this day and age he would be a mega celebrity. Nobody with that much natural talent would simply been ignored. I mean, the guy was playing fluent piano at 6years old! It wouldn't have mattered if his music was downloaded or not, he would be rich, famous and have all the women LOL

BUT, your point is still invalid on that point alone as he woulda made his zillions through sposorships, ads, live acts and no doubt the media would be paying him loads just to have his face broadcast. I mean, he wass an icon, not just a musician. he's a musical god, not just a human pianist. in other words, he could play better than any other player in the world. Fact. So, with that in mind - he wouldn't need a paltry income from download "sales" as he would already have the money coming in from elsewhere.
With regards to your comment on the car... You're right, you don't buy a car without first trying it. But that is officially called a "Test Drive". You get a quick 20-30mins sample, decide if you like it then you do this: Decide to buy it and use it for a few years or leave it there. The same should go with music. You should get a small sample (maybe a fuill track if the artist is nice enough) and from that you do this: decide whether or not to buy the full thing and add it to your collection. But with both examples, at the end of the day all you get is a sample and that's where it should end.

darqdean wrote:

Frank Zoppa wrote:

darqdean wrote:

Buy the CD, if you don't like it take it back. Simple as that.

Isn't that just as illegal?? I'm sure Toff records would go out of business very quickly if they were used as a library. With people like you buying all there stock just to return it.

Are you advocating paying for music listening to it then demanding a refund?? Are you not going to pay for listening to it?
Just what the world needs another self righteous hypocrit
You are much worse than any illegal downloader if thats the way you act

Please do not put words into my mouth.

I am not advocating anything - I simply stated that if you don't like what you bought take it back.

Returning purchases is within your statutory legal rights. I have done this with one CD out of several thousand I have purchased over the years. That does not make me a hypocrit - it doesn't even qualify me as a descerning purchaser.

This is of particular interest to me as I'm in 2 minds. Yes you can take things back if they are not of your own satifaction but I wouldn't personally extend that right to music or movies in particular. I know it's legal but these days I would think it would be frowned upon by a majority including the Artists.
However, had you done this 10+years ago then there shouldn't have been any problem as the wave of computer technology wasn't around and people weren't distributing the files ilegally so... I would probably say your point is valid if it was outwith the computer craze that is happening right now.

Melomaniac wrote:

Frank Zoppa wrote:

why should you buy music you haven't heard before

Because that's how it once was, before the advent of the Internet... remember the 80's or early 90's ? Or are you too young (to care ?)

The most we could hear then was ONE song on the radio, and, when it came to prog, you didn't hear a single song. Exciting times indeed, when you never knew what an album would sound like, when the simple act of discovery was a joy in itself. You must be part of that BLANK generation Wilson and PT depict in Fear of a Blank Planet , the bored-to-death, everything-has-to -be-provided-for-me generation, nothing excites you, does it ?

Also agreed. And it's people like that who are out there who basically mis-use and abuse what is not there's in the first place. Although I am only 19 and have really only just got into music I am known to look at the wider picture and thus I can agree that, the thrill of seeing such minor things is astounding. Fair enough if you want all the info thats inside the booklet then scour the internet but having it in the palm of your hands knowing that you are holding a piece of musical history itself is a great feeling. Cover art, lyrics, exclusive playing of instruments, the thank you page(s), booklet art and more obviously, the quality, structure and original sound of the music. If only things could go back in time and I could really get the true feeling of "Not knowing" and simply buying an album because you do not know... Now that sounds like a much better feeling.

Certif1ed wrote:

OK, I re-read what I wrote, and I look at this way:

If I make something and people don't buy it, then I don't make any money. To date, I have made no money from my music - but I don't try as hard these days, since I have a family, etc.

When I was working on the circuits trying to make a crust from music by gigging every night, I didn't consider myself rich as I took my share of the night's takings and tried to find a floor to sleep on somewhere.

I didn't consider myself rich as so-called managers ran off with the kitty.

I didn't consider myself rich when I found a load of our tapes had got ripped off (stolen) one night - I cursed people who steal music as I still do.

Yes, the record industry stinks.

Stealing from the artists does not make it smell better.

You don't have to download illegally in order to hear music - there are streaming sites all over the place - here, for instance - and legal ways to get music for free - so that argument carries no weight whatsoever.

It's not a debate - this thread is about joining the legal campaign - I'm sorry I lost my temper; I should have just ignored your ignorant post.

If you think my point of view is narrow minded, then you might be right - but I have reason to feel this way.

If you think it's naive - think again about who the naive one is.

Heart-felt, to the point and I can honestly say I can respect you as a musician. So I applaude your outburst Clap

The record industry is probably the 2nd biggest piece of crap on the planet next to arrogant, ignorant internet thieves. Also (in case you re-read this) if you have any of your original material, Certif1ed then I would happily buy some off you just to try it out. Name the price and we can haggle. LOL

Oh, and I'm being serious in case your wondering. Big%20smile

prog-chick wrote:

yargh wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

"Please differentiate between FREE as in legally free and STOLEN, as in illegally free - it's not a hard distinction to make - and the principle's the same, except that with legally free downloads, the artist has chosen to have that greater audience.

I'd rather not make a distinction. If artists have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new era, so be it. I heartily encourage everyone and anyone to download whatever they want -- legally or illegally -- and then purchase the album if you deem what you have heard to be purchase-worthy.

ok...... we are not being dragged kicking anywhere. We offer plenty of free downloads in a variety of places, to take yet more is disrespectful, rude and damaging.......and lets face it a tad on the greedy side.
We ask fair payment for fair goods. It's not unreasonable.

A tad?! That's the biggest understatement I have ever heard. It's wrong on so many levels and I don't really want to go repeating myself but it really is theft. Plain and simple. Samples, streaming, legal downloads or whatever are safe, effective ways to give both financial gain to the artist but also encourage other labels/bands/listeners to do the same if they don't want to buy a CD. Anyway, like somebody said earlier - you don't download books, consumer electricals or even food. So why music? Either way, it's.... oh nevermind.

prog-chick wrote:

yeah, you know if musicians like give stuff away and get really famous, you know the mortgage company will say, "that's ok, you're famous, you don't need to pay"...... which'll be good cos we'll be SO busy answering the door to all butcher, baker, greengrocer etc who'll be delivering free food in honour of our fame that we wouldn't have time to pay them anyway!

What business school did you drop out of?

Sheeesh....... musicians (like the butcher, baker and candlestick maker) need and deserve to be paid for their product. (It's kind of how they fund the next product)

It's also called "The generation of Wealth. For anyone who thinks like Frank Zoppa and Yargh you should look into Economics a little bit and learn how The Generation of Wealth works. But, if you don't want to go out and buy a book, I'll give you the crash course online.....
You see something you like that belongs to someone, they set you a price, you give them what they asked for. You both get something to which you believe is of equal value.
So, for the people who can't read between the lines - by downloading for free (the illegal kind) you are simply saying that the music is worthless to you, correct?

Anyway, I've had my say. Agree, disagree, read it all or not read it all or only read after your names is printed, I do not mind. I am content that I managed to comment on things in a designated area. Progtologist, you may close the topic any time you wish. I thank you all for your time.

My entertainment dollar is burning in my pocket!

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 18:09

Great post.

I will let this open and see what happens.

Rocktopus

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Posted: May 17 2007 at 18:49

Tony R wrote:

Rocktopus wrote:

Tony R wrote:

Rocktopus wrote:

TheProgtologist wrote:

You all are doing EXACTLY what I asked you not to do.

Why does every thread about downloading,even if the thread is dedicated to legal downloading,turn into an argument about the illegality of downloading????

And how is it possible to not see that coming? LOL

That Zoppa guy is the first one I've read here that can't seem to find one negative thing about illegal downloading.

That makes him the first person here who's just as narrowminded as the priveliged, well off fortysomething's who only see things in black and white, shouting: It's illegal! There's nothing to discuss! Bloody thiefs!

whenever you post and run like this I just have to laugh....

Now how about explaining yourself adequately instead of making smart-ass comments..

When I jump in and out of this forum its my real life girlfriend I fear, not you. Haven't got more time tonight, but this is what I mean:

Pantagruelcruel's poll

Back tomorrow.

wasnt suggesting you "feared" me but you surely must know that this type of posting is pure "troll". Not suggesting you are a "troll" just that one could interpret it that way.

Thanks for the link. I understand your postion better now.

I dont understand why you have to make your replies personal and thus aggressive seiing as you are quick to point out this failing in others...

I had no idea I was trolling or being aggressive (being a little rude, or pointing out stuff you thought were obvious is allowed, no?), really. I tried to be honest.

'The priveliged, well off fortysomething (+Everyone that's priveliged, of course. Based on reading similar threads there just seem to be a lot of judging going in this age group) should be careful before they say stuff like:

...In my opinion it is NEVER acceptable.... I can honestly say that if I hadn't been so fortunate, job wise, that I still would not have done it - purely on moral grounds.

...As for doing it because "it's free". Well you're a bloody thief and I'd like to see all people who steal in this way prosecuted!

This is a quite normal opinion on this topic here and unlike my post, not considered trolling.

Its ignorant, self righteous and it disgusts me.

Try and figure out how its possible to discuss a swedish jazz/fusion album with only 500 ex. printed in '74 and never reissued. With a 16 year old intelligent, kid from some country where there probably doesn't even exist a single original copy of that record. While you either bought your copy when it was brand new, or on ebay for 70 euros (which doesn't help the artist any more than a free download). Try and figure out how the kid got to hear it. You think he wouldn't rather own an original copy himself like you, if he could?

Do you want to stay friends or do you want keep judging, even see the kid prosecuted? A thief is a thief is a thief? No way! The world is not that simple a place. Some of you have no idea how many unfortunate youngsters who wisely stays away from all these discussions, you're hurting. This is your new friends. Your young, bright hopes for the future of prog.

(Downloading a new album you can easily find, and afford, is of course wrong)

Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me